Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[GWCarver]

Do you have evidence that the Luminol testing was planned and was known to the defense?[/QUOTE


This is a great example of thread comprised by a bunch of light weights. Discussion is shut down with comments like why do you hate Raffaelle and Amanda? Why do you want to persecute innocents? Why do you love Rudy? You believe this because ...It usually only takes a few posts for this tired group strategy to show up. Keeps the club feeling secure I get it. The quote attached did not include what I had wanted to. It was Dan saying something about why I was so critical of Sollecito and his visit to the grave but not of Rudy murdering Meredith. Perfect example of of Dan imagining what I thought about Rudy when he doesn't have a clue. Example of the type of posts that are common here applauded here even though they are completely irrelevant.

OK, what do you think about Rudy? If you tell us, no one will have to guess.

 

[Briars]

Sort of out of context, no?




ETA - you know Briars I doubt you can find one post of mine where I say anything about loving Rudy or persecuting innocents or hating the kids.

I would like you to explain what the cops knew before Amanda gave her statement that would allow them to know what she had told was correct.

What makes anyone here a light weight compared to the PGP sites?

Instead of talking about horseradish or turnip juice why don't respond to the quote I provided showing that a wide range of substances light up luminol.

Why don't you admit that having feet close to the size of Amanda that were found in a substance that was not identified as anything much less blood isn't really evidence of anything.

Now that the TOD has been moved to an earlier time by the prosecution do you still want to argue that Nara heard a scream because you can hear dogs in the valley?

Why don't you provide proof that they searched Patrick's and tested his knives or admit that it is very odd that they didn't do so?

That is another problem no one seems to remember much of what was said . In one ear out the other. I already told you Grinder that Nara was off on her time and I believe it to be around 10:30. You argued she should have looked at her clock in the kitchen. I believe she heard the scream after having gone to the bathroom after 10pm. I think we took the whether or not she would have necessarily looked at the clock as far as we could. What are the wide range of substances BTW , not bleach at that point . I answered I had no information about a search of Lumumba's do you have conclusive evidence they didn't search. If you find out they did not what are you saying?You think they knew he was innocent? They got Amanda to say his name so they could wrap up the case and be at Nonna's for Sunday dinner? Then you might think they left the clasp on purpose, another not innocent oversight. I think they entered Sollecito's apartment and were struck by the strong smell of bleach as they reported. Might make them want to check the cutlery drawer , good thing. Finally , I have told you more than once what Amanda told them that they knew to be true. She told them she went out as RS had just confirmed. She told them that not only did she not have an alibi but she knew a lot more about the murder then she had let on. She told them she was present at the cottage. Of course suspicion was limited to her outbursts over the knives with Mignini , the suspicious shower tale and fake break-in.

 

[RoseMontague]

That is another problem no one seems to remember much of what was said . In one ear out the other. I already told you Grinder that Nara was off on her time and I believe it to be around 10:30. You argued she should have looked at her clock in the kitchen. I believe she heard the scream after having gone to the bathroom after 10pm. I think we took the whether or not she would have necessarily looked at the clock as far as we could. What are the wide range of substances BTW , not bleach at that point . I answered I had no information about a search of Lumumba's do you have conclusive evidence they didn't search. If you find out they did not what are you saying?You think they knew he was innocent? They got Amanda to say his name so they could wrap up the case and be at Nonna's for Sunday dinner? Then you might think they left the clasp on purpose, another not innocent oversight. I think they entered Sollecito's apartment and were struck by the strong smell of bleach as they reported. Might make them want to check the cutlery drawer , good thing. Finally , I have told you more than once what Amanda told them that they knew to be true. She told them she went out as RS had just confirmed. She told them that not only did she not have an alibi but she knew a lot more about the murder then she had let on. She told them she was present at the cottage. Of course suspicion was limited to her outbursts over the knives with Mignini , the suspicious shower tale and fake break-in.

None of the tow truck people heard the scream. Raffaele's house cleaner testified that she cleaned his place on the 5th and there was no smell of bleach. You think they waited four days to clean the knife and put it back in the drawer? How long does the smell of bleach last?

 

[acbytesla]

If I'm understanding you rightly here, you're saying that if the prints were left in diluted blood, they should have been affected by the forensics goons wiping away Rudy's shoe print? You could be right. Still, given that luminol is used for the specific purpose of detecting wiped away or diluted blood (and apparently works better on those than on undiluted blood) I wonder whether we would expect the actions of the forensic goons to have had much or any effect on the underlying print anyway, especially given that these prints were already dry. It's not as if the goons were cleaning the floor with the gift-wrapped mop or anything (at least not as far as I've seen, but maybe that comes later in the video).

What makes me lean towards the bathmat hypothesis is how closely the prints seem to match Amanda's actions that morning - and the fact that if she's telling the truth, I can't see how she could possibly not have left prints - and the lack of any other material they could realistically have been made in. I'd dismiss fruit juice or wine as very unlikely (it would be different if the luminol reaction just showed blobs, as in Filomena's room, but entire footprints made in wine seems less likely...!). So that leaves us basically with some luminol-reactive substance mixed with water: bleach would be the obvious alternative, but that's ruled out by the timing, so as I see it the only other options are diluted blood or, as you say, some kind of metal substance in the water. In the latter case I'd expect there to be more prints than there turned out to be.

That very well may explain it Katy. But for me, the negative TMB result doesn't allow me to consider it to be blood. Now that doesn't mean it wasn't blood. But we have performed what is considered by the scientific and forensic community to be a perfectly reliable scientific test that shows it is not blood. It simply is unreasonable to ignore standard protocols and dismiss an exculpatory result capriciously. What the prosecution and Stefanoni and the guilters do are rationalizing ignoring that without a valid reason.

If Stefanoni suspected that the TMB test was not reliable it is incumbent upon her both as a scientist and what should be a neutral officer of the court to perform the required tests to prove that the secondary TMB test was unreliable.

No, it might be blood. but I'll never ever consider it to be blood.

 

[Briars]

None of the tow truck people heard the scream. Raffaele's house cleaner testified that she cleaned his place on the 5th and there was no smell of bleach. You think they waited four days to clean the knife and put it back in the drawer? How long does the smell of bleach last?

Bleach may have been used to clean the kitchen surfaces or bathroom more then once. Why think it was only for the knife? Another wipe down could have occurred prior to the police visit. I am sure police can easily identify the smell of bleach. The tow truck arrived after the scream and murder. Nara not looking at the clock thought it was later but it was all over by 10:30 IMO.

 

[lionking]

I can't get over being called a lightweight by Briars! Briars, you choose to moralise about Raffaele visiting her grave and Welshman made a crushing and well-observed moral an irrelevant point back at you. You never condemn Guede. How do you see his role? As a patsy? Or a peacemaker? What? Stick your neck out and tell us.

FTFY

 

[Bill Williams]

Bleach may have been used to clean the kitchen surfaces or bathroom more then once. Why think it was only for the knife? Another wipe down could have occurred prior to the police visit. I am sure police can easily identify the smell of bleach. The tow truck arrived after the scream and murder. Nara not looking at the clock thought it was later but it was all over by 10:30 IMO.

Then again it may not have been, it might not have occurred, and someone else might have a differing opinion.

 

[Grinder]

That is another problem no one seems to remember much of what was said . In one ear out the other. I already told you Grinder that Nara was off on her time and I believe it to be around 10:30.

Oh I remember but old Crini is moving it even earlier. Btw, you have a little problem with the broken down car parked right there at 10:30.

You argued she should have looked at her clock in the kitchen. I believe she heard the scream after having gone to the bathroom after 10pm.

No, a closer account of her testimony is that she went to bed around 9:30 and usually slept 2 hours before diuretic kicked in and she needed to pee. I didn't say she should have looked at her clock. I said if she really heard the most horrible scream of her life that was so upsetting that she went to the kitchen to boil water that it would be hard not to notice a clock in the kitchen.

What are the wide range of substances BTW , not bleach at that point.

I know you won't let it enter your mind but here it is again

A wide range of domestic and industrial substances that might be mistaken for haemoglobin in the forensic luminol test
for blood were examined. The substances studied were in the categories of vegetable or fruit pulps and juices; domestic and
commercial oils; cleaning agents; an insecticide; and various glues, paints and varnishes. A significant number of substances in each category gave luminescence intensities that were comparable with the intensities of undiluted haemoglobin, when sprayed with the
standard forensic solution containing aqueous alkaline luminol and sodium perborate.​

I answered I had no information about a search of Lumumba's do you have conclusive evidence they didn't search.

No information in any report has come out about a search there or any testing records of his knives or shoes or clothes. Unfortunately the PLE hasn't issued a statement that they didn't search.

If you find out they did not what are you saying?You think they knew he was innocent? They got Amanda to say his name so they could wrap up the case and be at Nonna's for Sunday dinner? Then you might think they left the clasp on purpose, another not innocent oversight. I think they entered Sollecito's apartment and were struck by the strong smell of bleach as they reported.

Well it wasn't bleach but rather another cleaner his maid had used as per her testimony but had they used bleach on the the knife that would have shown up and any DNA would have been destroyed. Obviously had the knife been in bleach the knife truly would have been clean. They found no evidence of bleach use anywhere associated with the crime.

I don't know if they knew he was innocent but it makes no sense that if they thought he had killed Meredith that they didn't take knives from his places and test them. I don't know if they did leave the clasp.

Might make them want to check the cutlery drawer , good thing. Finally , I have told you more than once what Amanda told them that they knew to be true. She told them she went out as RS had just confirmed. She told them that not only did she not have an alibi but she knew a lot more about the murder then she had let on. She told them she was present at the cottage. Of course suspicion was limited to her outbursts over the knives with Mignini , the suspicious shower tale and fake break-in.

They knew that Amanda went out? how? Because Raf had just told them? Did they know he stayed home? Why was Raf word to be correct? What do you mean Raf confirmed? Are you saying they knew she went out before he told them? He told Mansey two days before that they went to a party so I guess it wasn't a secret. So they knew about her being with Patrick at the cottage? Raf didn't tell them that.

 

[Bill Williams]

That is another problem no one seems to remember much of what was said . In one ear out the other. I already told you Grinder that Nara was off on her time and I believe it to be around 10:30. You argued she should have looked at her clock in the kitchen. I believe she heard the scream after having gone to the bathroom after 10pm. I think we took the whether or not she would have necessarily looked at the clock as far as we could. What are the wide range of substances BTW , not bleach at that point . I answered I had no information about a search of Lumumba's do you have conclusive evidence they didn't search. If you find out they did not what are you saying?You think they knew he was innocent? They got Amanda to say his name so they could wrap up the case and be at Nonna's for Sunday dinner? Then you might think they left the clasp on purpose, another not innocent oversight. I think they entered Sollecito's apartment and were struck by the strong smell of bleach as they reported. Might make them want to check the cutlery drawer , good thing. Finally , I have told you more than once what Amanda told them that they knew to be true. She told them she went out as RS had just confirmed. She told them that not only did she not have an alibi but she knew a lot more about the murder then she had let on. She told them she was present at the cottage. Of course suspicion was limited to her outbursts over the knives with Mignini , the suspicious shower tale and fake break-in.

Nara was also probably off on her day, not just the time.

And for the record, instead of the prosecution having to establish that they'd searched Lumumba's you're wanting defenders of Knox/Sollecito to prove the cops didn't. Great.

And the last time I smelled bleach, I also had the irresistable urge to check the cutlery drawer, and pick one knife at random from it.

And for the record, what you told Grinder is untrue. Amanda told the cops on Nov 5th/6th nothiong at all that matched what the prosecutors took to trial. So why is it that anyone can say, "he knew a lot more about the murder then she had let on"? That statement is just baffling. She knew nothing of how the murder went down...

She had "outbursts over the knives with Mignini"? You mean the thought of being shown knives, the vehicle of the slaughter of her friend, was not supposed to lead to an "outburst"?

And what fake break-in?

 

[Strozzi]

Bill Williams recently used the term "factoid". There appear to be some fairly new commentators on this blog and probably new readers who we don't know about so I would like to clarify what most of us mean by "factoid". The term "factoid" means a false fact.

Plenty of false facts have been spread deliberately by the prosecution in this case, the news media who were fed lurid accounts, and hostile pro-guilt posters on other sites. (That is a fact - not a "factoid" - right, Harry Rag?)

 

[Bill Williams]

I’m new here and don’t know if Amanda Knox’s blog exchange with Jack Slacker has been discussed here. I can post the complete exchange if not. But here is what she says about mixed blood:

Amanda Knox:

The day after the murder I had a hickey on my neck, NOT a scratch. I was not hiding my neck, and no one noted a scratch in the days leading up to my arrest. It was only months later that Laura Mezzetti came forward to suggest the hickey had been a scratch, because her memory had been tainted by the prosecution’s publicity of the investigation. I did NOT have a ripped ear. I had pierced my ears multiple times in late October, so I was still caring/cleaning the piercings, but I never made the excuse that a piercing had been ripped.

Because I lived in the house and made regular use of its facilities, my DNA was already there in the bathroom, the hallway between my room and the bathroom, and all common rooms. The trace of Meredith’s and my DNA in Filomena’s room was not a footprint and tested negative for blood. It is irrelevant.

Those who present evidence must guarantee the reliability of that evidence. Reliability is assured when protocol is followed, because contamination is a legitimate concern when processing DNA evidence. The investigators not only broke protocol by collecting evidence with dirty gloves, but the choice to collect further DNA evidence after the crime scene had been disturbed by further entrances by non-forensic investigators was absolutely illogical, unacceptable, and desperate.

Meredith’s DNA could never be determined to be on the kitchen knife. The prosecution’s very own equipment told them the LCN DNA was not a reliable trace given the equipment available. Advances in technology now cannot account for the technology of the time. The prosecution never could have asserted that Meredith’s DNA was on that knife, and by doing so they committed a desperate act of perjury that was only uncovered when the defense was finally granted access to certain amounts of the documentation, which the prosecution desperately tried to hide. Furthermore, the kitchen knife does not correspond with Meredith’s stab wounds, nor the bloody imprint of the knife on the bed sheet, and it never left Raffaele’s apartment because I didn’t carry his kitchen knife with me EVER.

The footprint in blood on the bathmat is not Raffaele’s. The measurements and qualities of the footprint correspond with Rudy Guede’s foeet and not Raffaele’s, particularly the placement of the toes. This desperate attempt by the prosecution to attribute SOMETHING to Raffaele resembles their attempt to assign Rudy Guede’s shoe print to Raffaele, which was also proven wrong. Similarly, the partial footprint which the investigators attribute to a female-sized foot has been proven to be simply a partial footprint from Rudy Guede’s same shoe — it corresponds with the markings. Again, the investigators are desperately trying to force the evidence against Rudy Guede on Raffaele and me.

All luminol footprints attributed to Raffaele and me tested negative for blood and were found to have Meredith’s and my DNA, which means that, had they been made in blood, they would have tested positive (tests for blood are even more sensitive than tests for DNA). Furthermore, where would we have picked Meredith’s blood up with our feet if not in Meredith’s bedroom? But there are no traces of our DNA or hand prints or footprints in Meredith’s blood.

Thanks for this. It is a very good summary that actually discussed evidence, or more correctly, the lack of same.

 

[Grinder]

That very well may explain it Katy. But for me, the negative TMB result doesn't allow me to consider it to be blood. Now that doesn't mean it wasn't blood. But we have performed what is considered by the scientific and forensic community to be a perfectly reliable scientific test that shows it is not blood.

How sensitive (common use LJ) is TMB to blood? Is it less sensitive than luminol? Could a diluted trace of blood light up under luminol but not react to TMB. My research says yes

If Stefanoni suspected that the TMB test was not reliable it is incumbent upon her both as a scientist and what should be a neutral officer of the court to perform the required tests to prove that the secondary TMB test was unreliable.[/quote[

Certainly you are not deferring to Steffi's expertise. Remember she forgot to mention the negative TMB test so she could say blood without additional tests.

No, it might be blood. but I'll never ever consider it to be blood.

Since no one knows what it is was I will entertain that it could be a very diluted blood from some event unrelated to the murder. The prosecution should have top show that it was Meredith's blood or at least blood and that they were Amanda's footprints.

 

[Bill Williams]

Hans is telling me that the German edition of the BBC3 "documentary" is 20 minutes longer and includes a long interview with Charles Mudede and also plays on the racist angle to the max. It also includes an interview with Rudy"s shrink at prison who says Rudy's changing stories is a sign he is innocent.

It appears that they also blame the Hellmann acquittal on pressure from US and Italian politicians and even mention the change in judges.

So let's get this straight. To change stories if you're black and telling it to someone in Germany this means you're innocent, but if you are white and have the same basic story (as per Massei: it's what he concluded about Amanda Knox) this means you're guilty.

Why didn't they just tell us this? Why have three (possibly four) trials!!?

Did BBC3 blame the Hellmann verdict on a Masonic conspiracy, and quote a Mr. Machiavelli who claims to know the amount of Euros it took to get Hellmann to boot the verdict?

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill Williams recently used the term "factoid". There appear to be some fairly new commentators on this blog and probably new readers who we don't know about so I would like to clarify what most of us mean by "factoid". The term "factoid" means a false fact.

Plenty of false facts have been spread deliberately by the prosecution in this case, the news media who were fed lurid accounts, and hostile pro-guilt posters on other sites. (That is a fact - not a "factoid" - right, Harry Rag?)

"Factoids" also cover things said to give a viewer a "reason to doubt", without actually presenting the evidence supporting the item as a fact.

For instance, the claim that US Media influence caused Hellmann to find Knox and Sollecito innocent is a "factoid", because it is presented only as a reason-to-doubt. The work has yet to be done to establish this as a fact.

Machiavelli claims to know the amount of Euros needed to get Hellmann to cave into this pressure. That is simply asserted, therefore is a factoid - until, of course, Machiavelli can produce actual evidence. And it becames worthy of being a "factoid" when some third poster reposts the claim as-if it had been proven by someone else.

 

[Desert Fox]

Did BBC3 blame the Hellmann verdict on a Masonic conspiracy, and quote a Mr. Machiavelli who claims to know the amount of Euros it took to get Hellmann to boot the verdict?

What is the goal of the Masons anyway?

 

[acbytesla]

Bleach may have been used to clean the kitchen surfaces or bathroom more then once. Why think it was only for the knife? Another wipe down could have occurred prior to the police visit. I am sure police can easily identify the smell of bleach. The tow truck arrived after the scream and murder. Nara not looking at the clock thought it was later but it was all over by 10:30 IMO.

Well, so what? This is the police saying they smell bleach at Rafffaele's apartment, not the cottage. Days after the murder.. It's not the primary crime scene. I use a light bleach solution to clean my counter tops all the time. I also use it to wash clothes or soak rags. That doesn't mean it is incriminating or even the slightest bit suspicious. It is one of the most common cleaning products in the world.

It wouldn't lead me to think...hey, I'll take this 10 inch cooking knife, because ....why????

The explanation that the apartment "smelled" of bleach is totally meaningless and absurd. It's what we refer to as running home to mama. There is NO actual reason for picking that knife out of the drawer, so the officer use a non provable, time tested excuse that cannot be challenged.

Every cop in the US knows that he requires probable cause to conduct a valid search. An officer just can't search some body's belongings because he has a hunch. If he said that in court after finding 10 Kilos of heroin, they would throw the case out of court and scold the officer. No police officer would ever take kindly to this, so they would know that they had to make up with a reason to justify their unlawful search. And 90 percent of the time they know precisely what to say.

That's why I think the explanation of the officer smelling bleach at Raffaele's is pure bs.

 

[Bill Williams]

What is the goal of the Masons anyway?

It's a fraternal organization to provide fellowship to its members and "good works" to the community. It has no centralized, controling hierarchy; esp. in the sense that some hierarchical religions have.

I think this Wikipedia article gives the best synopsis of what some fear Free Masonry actually does.... why it should be opposed, and its so-called "dangers to society"....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_Freemasonry_within_Christianity

It seems that the basic complaint of some churches about it is that it is seen to be replacing the need for "the church", substituting its own organization as a substitute for the hierarchy of what the opposers say is the "true church", namely, their own. Free Masonry's sin it seems is that it challenges the authority of priests.

The Catholic Church argues that the philosophy of French Freemasonry (the Grand Orient, not the dominant variety of Freemasonry or the branch that is active in the English-speaking world) is antithetical to Christian doctrine and that it is at many times and places anti-clerical in intent.

From what I read Freemasons are not required to believe in God, but the Roman Catholic hierarchy seems to ban Masonry over implied terms about God that sound Protestant.

As for what Free Masonry actually does, that may be limited only to the number of actual Masons.

The Masonic author Mackey called Freemasonry "a science which is engaged in the search after the divine truth".

The issue of contention is probably that some see Masons as offering a substitute for religion.

.....the New Catholic Encyclopedia states the opinion that "Freemasonry displays all the elements of religion, and as such it becomes a rival to the religion of the Gospel. It includes temples and altars, prayers, a moral code, worship, vestments, feast days, the promise of reward or punishment in the afterlife, a hierarchy, and initiation and burial rites."

So, who knows. Perhaps the "goal" of Freemasonry is the same as the goal of all religion in general.

At the risk of enraging former posters to this thread - another critique of Masonry is that some claim it advocates Devil Worship. Who knows, maybe Amanda Knox is a Mason... performing a murder as part of a Masonic rite.... (I'll be damned if I say "S*t*n*c R*t*" here after being pilloried for saying so a while ago!!!!!)

 

[acbytesla]

What is the goal of the Masons anyway?

Freemasons are a fraternal society. It's really about helping people along their journey to being a better person and in doing so better society. Lodges are independent from each other so each is different in their own specific rules, but some aspects are mostly universal The vast majority of lodges requires a brother to believe in a higher power than themselves. Most lodges don't really require you to be of a specific faith but there are a few that require you to be Christian. I'm an atheist and the local lodge does allow atheists as long as they believe in the spiritual concept that there is a higher power than themselves.

Every lodge that I've read about require their member to be charitable and to support any brother in need with certain exceptions.

 

[Desert Fox]

I did mean what is the goal of the Masons in regards to Amanda Knox. . . .
Of interest though, every Freemason I have met has been black.

 

[RoseMontague]

Bleach may have been used to clean the kitchen surfaces or bathroom more then once. Why think it was only for the knife? Another wipe down could have occurred prior to the police visit. I am sure police can easily identify the smell of bleach. The tow truck arrived after the scream and murder. Nara not looking at the clock thought it was later but it was all over by 10:30 IMO.

About the only thing Nara is sure of in her testimony is her normal sleeping patterns. She went to bed at 9:00-9:30 and slept 2 hours or perhaps longer.

And what of the heroin addicted drug dealing park bench bum? He doesn't see them leave or return during this time. Every time he looks up they are there.

http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/ear-witness-nara-capezzali/