Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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RoseMontague said:
UK public opinion. I have several friends that are part of the UK's public opinion. They believe Raffaele and Amanda are innocent. You live in the UK. What is your opinion?

UK government involved. No.

Italian public opinion. Mostly it's saving face. Politics and National pride.
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I suspect that it is hard for non UK readers to appreciate radio 4 is far more important than TV. I picked this up because of a pro RS section on the Today program on radio 4. Everyone listens to the Today program, this is what people will believe.

the metropolitan police tend to be pro-active in the investigation of English people overseas especially high profile cases; I have always thought it interesting the lack of input from them almost as if they thought the culprit had been convicted.
 
Hans is telling me that the German edition of the BBC3 "documentary" is 20 minutes longer and includes a long interview with Charles Mudede and also plays on the racist angle to the max. It also includes an interview with Rudy"s shrink at prison who says Rudy's changing stories is a sign he is innocent.
 
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Katody Matrass said:
You're right about it but it wasn't the first time she mentioned it.

9 November 2007 she wrote in a letter to Ghirga and Vedova
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Ahh, the missing letter. How did Amanda manage to sneak this letter past the greedy police lurking like vultures waiting to snatch anything they can sell to the insatiable press?
 
It appears that they also blame the Hellmann acquittal on pressure from US and Italian politicians and even mention the change in judges.
 
anglolawyer said:
There aren't any times in your time line.

I disagree with your post. The prosecution assembled a jumble of supposedly incriminating things that don't fit together. That is the whole point. What time was the attack? 9.00 p.m? No. They were at home then. 10.00 p.m? They were in the piazza under the gaze of Toto. And she didn't scream for another hour. 11.00 p.m. No. Toto and the tow truck. Midnight? Yes, that's it! Everything fits! Except Meredith needs to be doing things she was not doing between 9 and 12, including undressing, going to bed, using her phone, digesting food, making notes for class, sleeping or anything. Curiously, none of these things is a problem if Rudy acted alone which is also what the forensics say.

Have another go.
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The attack was between 9:10 - 9:30 while Rudy was at Raffaele's house making sure the screensaver didn't come on, after he had hooked up with them at Raffaele's house to tell them that Meredith had just come home and they then immediately ran over to kill her, but not before they put on gloves and booties. Raffaele struggled with Meredith while Amanda watched until he had knocked her down and she was dazed. Amanda then took over and lifted her head up by her hair and stabbed her repeatedly in the neck from behind,

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RoseMontague said:
It appears that they also blame the Hellmann acquittal on pressure from US and Italian politicians and even mention the change in judges.
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This is interesting, because if so they are conceding that the judicial process in Italy is vulnerable to political influence.
 
anglolawyer said:
I don't disagree Grinder but there is a point to be made about this timeline thing and the meme the guilters have got hold of that this is a circumstantial case in which you have to look at all the evidence.
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As with any case all the evidence needs to be looked at, but one can't just discard those parts of evidence that are not convenient and one must make all the parts fit. If Curatolo is to be used to discredit the alibi of the kids then all of what he says must be given the same credibility unless there is good reason to parse it. Curatolo clearly says they were there every time he looked up from 9:30 until just before midnight. The people that wish to use his testimony must accept what he said. Massei, as you know, altered his testimony in a acceptable way to fit the disco bus schedules until it became clear that no buses were running. Even if we accept Massei's earlier time those that espouse guilt must make their theory fit with his testimony or throw it out entirely. They must also make their theory fit with the car and tow truck. Since Nara and Monachia aren't really any kind of substantive witnesses (pick a time and time), they really don't need to be considered.

A circumstantial case can be very strong but it must all point to one thing. After all, only one thing really happened. There was only one set of events and each event happened at one moment in time. We don't have to know everything to the second and the witnesses and indicators don't have to point to exact times but some kind of a picture does have to emerge. In our case, the events are time-critical (they don't always have to be but they are here) because there are known parameters for most of the key events. If we can't make them fit then we either have to chuck some elements out or permit some tolerance to them. This is where the fun starts, with people trying to move the scream forward or let Curatolo see them only in gaps between bouts of newspaper reading or screw around with digestion etc etc.
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The strongest cases of all have circumstantial evidence at the core. In this case the PIP put forward a theory that matches all the solid circumstantial evidence. Rudy either broke in, was let it alone or with fellow crooks and Meredith was killed before 10 pm and probably by 9:30.
 
Last night I woke at 3 or so and decided to listen to my new Sangean AM/FM radio with ear buds. I fell asleep eventually and slept later than normal. If I were asked about my night and morning (before this case :eek:) I would have said that I baked a lemon chicken breast and roasted vegetables, drank some wine and since it's legal here went to bed after watching some Netflix. I would have reported that I got up at 6:30 and made coffee in the new Keurig and started reading JREF. I would have not mentioned my middle of the night radio listening.

I was disturbed by the mention of the 5:32 am interaction on BBC 4. So what? If he had killed Meredith why would being up for a little while matter?
 
AmyStrange said:
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The attack was between 9:10 - 9:30 while Rudy was at Raffaele's house making sure the screensaver didn't come on, after he had hooked up with them at Raffaele's house to tell them that Meredith had just come home and they then immediately ran over to kill her, but not before they put on gloves and booties. Raffaele struggled with Meredith while Amanda watched until he had knocked her down and she was dazed. Amanda then took over and lifted her head up by her hair and stabbed her repeatedly in the neck from behind,

d

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Brilliant! - except for the crap in the loo and all the actual evidence.
 
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AmyStrange said:
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The attack was between 9:10 - 9:30 while Rudy was at Raffaele's house making sure the screensaver didn't come on, after he had hooked up with them at Raffaele's house to tell them that Meredith had just come home and they then immediately ran over to kill her, but not before they put on gloves and booties. Raffaele struggled with Meredith while Amanda watched until he had knocked her down and she was dazed. Amanda then took over and lifted her head up by her hair and stabbed her repeatedly in the neck from behind,

anglolawyer said:
Brilliant! - except for the crap in the loo and all the actual evidence.
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After they killed Meredith, they went home and then Rudy left to go over to leave his evidence behind,

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NancyS said:
No blood on any of their clothes, shoes and no blood tracked back to Raffaele's flat is good evidence that they weren't involved. Blood is a nightmare for cleaning up and for getting everywhere. I regularly take blood and even a few spilt drops end up everywhere and are really hard to clean up without smearing it everywhere
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The defense have been criticised for being ineffective. This is a point I raised some time ago. Steve Moore wrote a series of articles on the evidence which should have existed if Amanda and Raffaele killed Meredith. Moore argued that Amanda and Raffaele should have had blood on their clothing, have left blood traces in Meredith's room and there would be blood transfer in Amanda's room or Raffaele's apartment. None of these things existed. The defense never used this argument which is a shame.
 
Desert Fox said:
There are a number of items I have been reading

What exactly is the claim of mixed blood?
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"Mixed blood" refers to the claim that Amanda's blood was mixed with Meredith's blood in five places in the cottage, outside of the murder room.

I believe it was claimed by Mignini during the 2009 trial. Whether that be true or not, Judge Massei's motivations report emanating from that trial, released in 2010, is clear - he says that Amanda's "biological material" is mixed with Meredith's blood in those locations.

If there had been verified mixed blood from the two, then I would be a guilter.

No one of any credential whatsoever these days claims "mixed blood". The Machine/Harry Rag includes this factoid in his comments-bombs to comments sections of articles.

Guilters used to make up other factoids about Amanda, to explain how her blood got at the scene... which (with the exception of the bathroom faucet) none was found. Guilters talk about the "hickey" on Knox's neck being a source for this blood-letting on her part. Knox was photographed upon her arrest on Nov 6, and there is a faded spot there on her neck, and the police photograph has an endorsement on it saying that it was in some sort of false colour, so that the mark would be visible. If this had been a source of blood 4 1/2 days previous, the mark would not be in that condition.

Guilters then shift gears saying that Meredith must have belted Knox in the nose during the imagined attack. This would explain why there is not mark visible on Amanda to show this fantasy blood's source. Guilters never explain why, then, Amanda's blood is not found in the murder room from this injury.... and nowhere in the cottage un-mixed with Meredtih's.

It's a factoid that did not survive even the first convicting judge's motivation's report.

Further to this, Judge Massei never explains why it would be forensicly interesting only to find "biological material" (hair, dried skin sluffed off....) Massei says that the material found in the bathroom from Knox must be there from the action of her cleaning Meredith's blood off of herself.

That is simply a ludicrous claim, as ludicrous as the "mixed blood" even Massei says is not there!

It's that part that leads some, me included, to believe that Massei wrote his motivations report so that the verdict it was supposed to support would be overturned. Otherwise I have no explanation for why a seemingly compis and mentis judge would find it unusual to find biological material of one of the cottage's occupants at the cottage they lived in - particularly in the bathroom she and the victim shared!

Mixed-blood: game over... I'm a guilter and I would be making guilt-like assertions here simply to bait innocenters. But the notion of mixed-blood died with Massei.

That Andrea Vogt would have this as part of her BBC3 documentary shows where her biases lie.
 
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Welshman said:
The defense have been criticised for being ineffective. This is a point I raised some time ago. Steve Moore wrote a series of articles on the evidence which should have existed if Amanda and Raffaele killed Meredith. Moore argued that Amanda and Raffaele should have had blood on their clothing, have left blood traces in Meredith's room and there would be blood transfer in Amanda's room or Raffaele's apartment. None of these things existed. The defense never used this argument which is a shame.
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In my scenario, since Amanda was the one who killed Meredith (and thus was the only one with blood), and since she was home, she changed clothes, and put her bloody clothes in a plastic bag and dumped it.

How come these bloody clothes weren't found? Maybe for the same reason Meredith's keys and the murder weapon weren't found,

d

ETA see my post #10571 for the rest of my scenario
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Briars said:
At the time of the visit he was/still is a defendant in the ongoing trial. It absolutely was a vile intrusion. He barely knew her, his visit strikes me as disrespectful and odd . He visited with a person who writes for the defendants and makes disparaging remarks against the Kerchers. We will never know how they behaved at the grave or what was said thankfully,
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It is strange how Briars attacks Raffaele for visiting Meredith's grave but he never attacks Rudy Guede the man who put Meredith in her grave.
 
Planigale said:
I suspect that it is hard for non UK readers to appreciate radio 4 is far more important than TV. I picked this up because of a pro RS section on the Today program on radio 4. Everyone listens to the Today program, this is what people will believe.
....
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In case the link hasn't been posted, the radio broadcast is accessible on the BBC web site.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03vgr6x
 
Welshman said:
The defense have been criticised for being ineffective. This is a point I raised some time ago. Steve Moore wrote a series of articles on the evidence which should have existed if Amanda and Raffaele killed Meredith. Moore argued that Amanda and Raffaele should have had blood on their clothing, have left blood traces in Meredith's room and there would be blood transfer in Amanda's room or Raffaele's apartment. None of these things existed. The defense never used this argument which is a shame.
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Well before Moore had any idea who Amanda is people on Frank's blog were making the point, well before the trial. I'm sure anonymous said many a time :p.

Long long ago we had a discussion here about the difficulty of disposing of such things as shoes, knives, clothes and cleaning supplies.

The problem may be as Mach described it. In Italy once a theory of guilt is put forward the defense argument opposed must be definitive. He argued that TOD based on stomach/digestion just could undo Curatolo and Nara.

Saying that it would be nearly impossible for the kids to murder and return to Raf's and not bring blood along, well just isn't as powerful as saying footprints left in an unidentified substance are compatible with Amanda.
 
More speculative psychological crap... from me!

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anglolawyer said:
Duh. Shoulda known. Nice euphemism btw.
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I still don't believe this is what really happened, because I find it highly improbable that these three psychologies [SP?] connected enough to pull something like this off, with no apparent logical reason or motive, and in six days no less. I just don't see it,

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