Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[NancyS]

The coverage of the witnesses, Curatolo and Quintaville, was fairly poor and it didn't include the reasons why they were unreliable - and again it seemed to put Guede in almost a good light and again seemed to suggest that it was possible he had a date with Meredith. It was even stated that he had been vilified by the press and that he had to be tried separately as otherwise Amanda and Raffaele would have blamed everything on him

 

[Grinder]

It's a shame that neither those who run tv or radio think an audience could be found for a thorough 2 hour programme. They could probably get mileage out of at least 6 one hour programmes.

Now what would be great is a program where PG and PI people sat on a panel and would be able to put questions to each other and to neutral experts.

ETA - if it was on TV the PI people could show the guy climbing to the window. How could this woman not have seen the Ch. 5 demonstration?

 

[Diocletus]

Eg if you dont find someones dna, or saliva or blood in a given room, you cant conclude they werent there.

Is that true for glass under the window, too?

 

[anglolawyer]

Here's a post from the dark side today:

The lack of physical evidence is not evidence.

Eg if you dont find someones dna, or saliva or blood in a given room, you cant conclude they werent there.

There is the footprint, compatible with AK, and the knife outline compatble with the kitchen knife with ak an mk dna on it. Im not a foensic expert, however.​

Of course this is another person that doesn't understand Locard.

The Machine is ranting as well that the shoe print on the duvet is compatible with Amanda but not Meredith shoe size (which I don't believe could be determined) which raises an issue. Where are the other woman's shoe prints? We know that the print was a partial left by Rudy which explains the "missing" small shoe prints but is this proof strong enough to over come the PG mistake?

I would like one of our PG people to explain how Amanda left a shoe print on the duvet or pillow, didn't leave another shoe print anywhere and left bare footprints in the hall.

Apparently the knife that didn't match the outline or the wounds for 5 years now does.

You go there so we don't have to! . You have identified yet more evidence that acquires weight only in conjunction with all the other 'evidence'. I laugh every time I hear the PGPs parrot that. The ISC really chucked them a lifeline.

 

[JREF2010]

Apparently the knife that didn't match the outline or the wounds for 5 years now does.

It is insane, isn't it?

 

[platonov]

Groundhog in a sheet.

Planigale,

Platonov made the same sorts of claims against me. Fortunately my public stances about the cases of Farah Jama, Eric Frimpong, and the multiple defendants in Tulia, Texas show how shallow and foolish a charge of racism is.

Do you really want to revisit the 'lets put the incarcerated black guy on trial again' issue - your response to Cassation overturning the H/Z acquittal of the white kids.

It went on for several pages last time - I thought it was finished when you opposed stiffer sentences for convicted killers in Italy (unless you could personally rewrite the Italian penal code w.r.t 2 particular white convicts)

Better to let sleeping dogs lie. No

Now to more important matters.....

 

[platonov]

The next Mandela & Harry Rug

So what has happened to the petition.
I see it is now over 2000 - could this be described as a ripple.

What next for consciousness raising .............
Any ideas ????? I am loathe to make any suggestions myself as my last flippant comment didn't go down very well.

Now the rather poor response got me thinking – where are all the Knox fans.

Then I saw an image online of [somebody pretending to be ??] a Knox groupie with a slogan comparing AK's plight as a result of committing murder to that of Jews and gypsies at the hands of the Nazis. Actually it was inset in an image making fun of this statement.

(My first thought wasn’t 'how ridiculous' but rather 'that wont resonate with the base ')

But as I pondered all this a further element enter the now fertile mix of ideas in my brain...

The recent kerfuffle on this thread about Harry Rug.


And then it came together;
Perhaps many of the so called Knox fans online are in fact socks of this Rug fellow & the really dumb offensive arguments are his attempt to discredit the movement.
Of course this raises the Q which ones are the socks ?
Is the whole online movement Harry Rug and his acolytes ran amok.

Sounds outlandish – perhaps.

For starters who is the guy with the Nazi slogan – does anyone actually know him.

Is he Harry Rug

 

[Planigale]

Here's a post from the dark side today:

The lack of physical evidence is not evidence.

Eg if you dont find someones dna, or saliva or blood in a given room, you cant conclude they werent there.

There is the footprint, compatible with AK, and the knife outline compatble with the kitchen knife with ak an mk dna on it. Im not a foensic expert, however.​

Of course this is another person that doesn't understand Locard.

The Machine is ranting as well that the shoe print on the duvet is compatible with Amanda but not Meredith shoe size (which I don't believe could be determined) which raises an issue. Where are the other woman's shoe prints? We know that the print was a partial left by Rudy which explains the "missing" small shoe prints but is this proof strong enough to over come the PG mistake?

I would like one of our PG people to explain how Amanda left a shoe print on the duvet or pillow, didn't leave another shoe print anywhere and left bare footprints in the hall.

Apparently the knife that didn't match the outline or the wounds for 5 years now does.

The definition of compatibility interests me. I have been thinking about trying to chase down the story of the shoe prints originally reported to be RS then RG. I would like to find who did the 'matching' originally. Clearly the print did not match RS trainer and should have excluded him. If they had bothered carefully and formally examining the prints. Instead because of a confirmation bias (I assume) they just seemed to go with a 'the prosecution think RS is guilty so we'll have a quick look and if it seems OK we'll just say it's a match as the police say it'll be a match'. But I'd be interested just how definite they were. It would also be interesting to see who was so lazy / incompetent.

in any case we also presumably have RS and AK shoes swabbed and tested for blood and DNA and found negative. I assume with all this story of shoe prints they were tested. I would have thought this was worth the defence emphasising given the prosecution making references to shoe prints that their shoes were negative for blood or DNA. Whilst absence of proof isn't proof of absence, it does make it progressively less likely.

 

[toto]

So what has happened to the petition.
I see it is now over 2000 - could this be described as a ripple.

What next for consciousness raising .............
Any ideas ????? I am loathe to make any suggestions myself as my last flippant comment didn't go down very well.

Now the rather poor response got me thinking – where are all the Knox fans.

Then I saw an image online of [somebody pretending to be ??] a Knox groupie with a slogan comparing AK's plight as a result of committing murder to that of Jews and gypsies at the hands of the Nazis. Actually it was inset in an image making fun of this statement.

(My first thought wasn’t 'how ridiculous' but rather 'that wont resonate with the base ')

But as I pondered all this a further element enter the now fertile mix of ideas in my brain...

The recent kerfuffle on this thread about Harry Rug.


And then it came together;
Perhaps many of the so called Knox fans online are in fact socks of this Rug fellow & the really dumb offensive arguments are his attempt to discredit the movement.
Of course this raises the Q which ones are the socks ?
Is the whole online movement Harry Rug and his acolytes ran amok.

Sounds outlandish – perhaps.

For starters who is the guy with the Nazi slogan – does anyone actually know him.

Is he Harry Rug

I don't find this kind of post particularly helpful to someone like me who from the very start wanted to know the exact truth of what happened whichever direction it lay (after the initial assumption of guilt for all the obvious reasons). If good evidence, well argued, is presented for the guilt of Amanda and Raffaele, then I would genuinely look to see if the arguments against that were clutching at straws or well founded. But your post is perplexingly pointless. I did read the PGP sites before the latest verdict where I got this kind of thing all the time, along with childish animated cartoon icons and pretty pictures of birdlife and the like. But it really didn't help me. Your post here didn't particularly outrage me: it is just silly.

 

[Grinder]

in any case we also presumably have RS and AK shoes swabbed and tested for blood and DNA and found negative. I assume with all this story of shoe prints they were tested. I would have thought this was worth the defence emphasising given the prosecution making references to shoe prints that their shoes were negative for blood or DNA. Whilst absence of proof isn't proof of absence, it does make it progressively less likely.

Not only did they not find blood or DNA on any of their clothing, they didn't find any of Meredith's blood or Amanda's for that matter at Raf's place. No one has ever even begun to explain how they could have been involved in this grisly murder and not been doused in blood. As I posted their top gun TM is still claiming that the shoe print underneath was from a shoe of Amanda's even though no such shoe was owned by her or identified as existing anywhere. "If the shoe doesn't exist, then it can't be a match but compatible is enough" Someone help with the slogan.

Not even disposing of all their garments, cleaning rags, and shoes explains the fact that the print found matched no known shoe. I'm sure the british girls could have told the police the make and model of all of Amanda's shoes.

No clothing or anything has ever been reported to be missing. And it isn't that easy to get rid of stuff and not be found out. I used to assume that the police would have looked through garbage cans and other likely spots to dispose of evidence but now I wonder.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

what happened, when did it happen, and how does it explain the evidence?

Do you really want to revisit the 'lets put the incarcerated black guy on trial again' issue - your response to Cassation overturning the H/Z acquittal of the white kids.

SNIP

Now to more important matters.....

platonov,

I thought your comments at the time were nonsensical, and in reviewing the exchange, I have come to the conclusion that I was correct. As to more important matters, what is your narrative/timeline of the crime?

 

[NancyS]

Not only did they not find blood or DNA on any of their clothing, they didn't find any of Meredith's blood or Amanda's for that matter at Raf's place. No one has ever even begun to explain how they could have been involved in this grisly murder and not been doused in blood. As I posted their top gun TM is still claiming that the shoe print underneath was from a shoe of Amanda's even though no such shoe was owned by her or identified as existing anywhere. "If the shoe doesn't exist, then it can't be a match but compatible is enough" Someone help with the slogan.

Not even disposing of all their garments, cleaning rags, and shoes explains the fact that the print found matched no known shoe. I'm sure the british girls could have told the police the make and model of all of Amanda's shoes.

No clothing or anything has ever been reported to be missing. And it isn't that easy to get rid of stuff and not be found out. I used to assume that the police would have looked through garbage cans and other likely spots to dispose of evidence but now I wonder.

No blood on any of their clothes, shoes and no blood tracked back to Raffaele's flat is good evidence that they weren't involved. Blood is a nightmare for both cleaning up and for getting everywhere. I regularly take blood and even a few spilt drops end up everywhere and are really hard to clean up without smearing it everywhere

 

[Bill Williams]

Apparently the knife that didn't match the outline or the wounds for 5 years now does.

It is insane, isn't it?

Machiavelli first brought that up in this thread, well before anyone in the Italian court system did. Me, I thought Machiavelli was nuts. I heretofore apologize to Machiavelli.

A couple of days later, on or about December 2013, Prosecutor Crini told the Nencini court that the kitchen knife from Raffaele's was a match (or was it merely "compatible with") the blood outline of a knife on Meredith's sheet.

Did Crini present any evidence about this? No. He merely asserted it.

What is baffling to me is how much people post-Mignini's prosecution have to reinvent the crime. Andrea Vogt's BBC3 documentary of earlier this week is simply a restatement of Mignini's case at the first trial in 2009.

Yet in December 2013, the new prosecutor suddenly asserts things Mignini never asserted. Mignini made the point in 2009 (asserting it) that there had to have been a second knife at the crime, simply because obviously the kitchen knife was not compatible with the bedsheet outline.

Apparently, even Mignini was too embarrassed to make an equivalency, when it was so obviously not.

Crini secured a re-conviction through Nencini's court by simply asserting that there now is an equivalency - and when one looks at the evidence Crini submitted.... oh, wait, he submitted none.

This, friends, is the detail associated with an obvious wrongful conviction.

 

[Grinder]

No blood on any of their clothes, shoes and no blood tracked back to Raffaele's flat is good evidence that they weren't involved. Blood is a nightmare for both cleaning up and for getting everywhere. I regularly take blood and even a few spilt drops end up everywhere and are really hard to clean up without smearing it everywhere

And you can see it without the use of luminol. Had they returned to Raf's, even after washing off at the cottage, it would be nearly impossible not to bring some blood with them.

We now have them in the plaza until midnight as per Curatolo's testimony before being altered by Massei. He clearly believes they were there the entire time which makes their involvement impossible, so let's make our own adjustment and say he must have been wrong and they left and came back. But now that would mean they went and killed Meredith and then returned to the plaza for some inexplicable reason, yet no visible signs of blood or a knife.

Here's a question for Anglo or someone: Did they find any of Meredith's blood at Rudy's? Did they bother to check?

Did they find any at Patrick's? Of course not, but did they even check?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Rinaldi, Boemia, Ippolito, Mainieri

The definition of compatibility interests me. I have been thinking about trying to chase down the story of the shoe prints originally reported to be RS then RG. I would like to find who did the 'matching' originally.

Planigale,

Rinaldi and Boemia were the second team of pseudo-experts, yet I think it was the first team (Ippolito-Mainieri) that misidentified the shoe prints. Eventually Guede acknowledged that the prints were probably his (spring 2008). Dempsey's book has some information from the point of view of Sollecito's family, who found a pair of shoes that were the same model at Guede's. An old comment of mine addressed some of this material. Also here. The best place for information is Injustice Anywhere, which has one of the Rinaldi reports and the Vinci report. Rose Montague had a hand in pulling some of the material together, which includes at least one machine translation, IIRC.

Grinder,

I am sure that you know this, but there is no female shoe print in the room. There are two parallel lines that Professor Vinci said could not be from a shoe.

 

[Grinder]

platonov,

I thought your comments at the time were nonsensical, and in reviewing the exchange, I have come to the conclusion that I was correct. As to more important matters, what is your narrative/timeline of the crime?

Chris you ignorant ****.

It will no more try to explain a theory than any of them. They spend all there time making photo-shop pictures and commenting on the looks of supporters and family.

They have no interest in the evidence or the science or the actions of the PLE. Even if one firmly believes that the kids are guilty, one should still wonder why the knives at Patrick's weren't seized and tested. Why his apartment wasn't sealed? And yes, what the chief meant when he said that the police made Amanda buckle and tell them what they knew to be correct.

After all look at their leaders and the juvenile nature of their followers.

 

[Grinder]

Grinder,

I am sure that you know this, but there is no female shoe print in the room. There are two parallel lines that Professor Vinci said could not be from a shoe.

Yes Chris I do know but thanks.

The point, which I'm sure you understood, is that they are still pushing that factoid and yet don't see that it can't be what they say. If it were there would need to be a pair of shoes in existence that match (or were compatible in three ways ) and it would make absolutely no sense that the print would show up only there.

Perhaps one of our PGP could give just a description of how that print could be from Amanda's shoe.

 

[BaileyBell]

Do you really want to revisit the 'lets put the incarcerated black guy on trial again' issue - your response to Cassation overturning the H/Z acquittal of the white kids.

It went on for several pages last time - I thought it was finished when you opposed stiffer sentences for convicted killers in Italy (unless you could personally rewrite the Italian penal code w.r.t 2 particular white convicts)

Better to let sleeping dogs lie. No

Now to more important matters.....

You realize your posting style makes people take you less seriously, right?

 

[kwill]

Interesting.

The American Academy of Forensic Scientists is holding its annual conference in Seattle right now. You can have a look at the whole program here, but on page 27 here's this:

The November 2, 2007 Murder in Perugia:
One Thousand Clues of Evidence That
Tell Another Truth — What About Justice
for Meredith Kercher, Raffaele Sollecito,
and Amanda Knox?

Francesco Vinci, MD*, p.za G. Cesare, 11, Bari 70124, ITALY;
Maricla Marrone, MD, p.za G. Cesare, 11, Bari 70124, ITALY;
Francesca Tarantino, MD, via Milella 57, Bari 70124, ITALY; Laura
Marrone, PhD, Bari P.zza G. Cesare 11, 70124, Bari , ITALY; and
Nicoletta Ventura, PhD, P.zza G. Cesare 11, Bari 71024 , ITALY


This presentation will impact the forensic community by
providing an example of how several strands of evidence were
used in the reconstruction of the assault perpetrated on the victim.
The main goal of this presentation is to comprehensively
characterize the relevant forensic features of the case and their
importance for case reconstruction and judgement in terms of
Italian and international laws.

Professor F Vinci was Sollecito’s forensic expert from the onset of the trial . .

The main goal of this presentation is to comprehensively
characterize the relevant forensic features of the case and their
importance for case reconstruction and judgement in terms of
Italian and international laws.

In this presentation, different and controversial pieces of evidence will be used to illustrate and reconstruct a sequence of events based on shoe and footprints, the luminol investigation, bloodstains, examination of a pillow, knife identification, and so forth.

Some problems of international law and agreements on extradition protocols between the U.S. and Italy will also be discussed, as well as some fundamental legal principles on the validity of evidence in criminal trials in Italy.

Dang. There was a poster session yesterday (p109). And a presentation (p 149) this morning.
The Amanda Knox Case: A New Scenario After the Supreme Court Verdict
Michele Vaira, JD*; Luciano Garofano, PhD*

 

[Briars]

Chris you ignorant ****.

It will no more try to explain a theory than any of them. They spend all there time making photo-shop pictures and commenting on the looks of supporters and family.

They have no interest in the evidence or the science or the actions of the PLE. Even if one firmly believes that the kids are guilty, one should still wonder why the knives at Patrick's weren't seized and tested. Why his apartment wasn't sealed? And yes, what the chief meant when he said that the police made Amanda buckle and tell them what they knew to be correct.

After all look at their leaders and the juvenile nature of their followers.

Doug Bremner brother of AK's lawyer compared Kerchers to Nazis. As bad as that other supporter Nigel Scott who secretly took Sollecito to the gravesite. Then Steve Moore making a fool of himself on CNN with the SC knowing and protecting the "informant"Guede. All deserving of being photo shopped. We have to laugh or we would cry.