Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Diocletus]

Here you go

The arrest warrant is interesting on this issue. It says that Patricks message is gone, but that the fact that Patrick sent the message at 8:18 is known from phone records. This is dated November 6 at 8:40 am.

Generally, he uses the absence of the SMS to suggest that Patrick and Amanda had been planning malfeasance, confirmed by the setting if the meeting (which I guess they forgot to hide because they didn't delete the SMS setting the meeting??? Doh).

So, the deletion is actually used to give a meaning to the "see you shortly" email that it would not have had if the underlying message was there.

 

[Antony]

Oh, and btw. not even Vogt could bring herself to mention Toto, Nara, Koko or Quint. How about that?

They did report on the BBC3 programme that unspecified witnesses had contradicted Amanda and Raff's alibi, without stating any details.

 

[anglolawyer]

The arrest warrant is interesting on this issue. It says that Patricks message is gone, but that the fact that Patrick sent the message at 8:18 is known from phone records. This is dated November 6 at 8:40 am.

Generally, he uses the absence of the SMS to suggest that Patrick and Amanda had been planning malfeasance, confirmed by the setting if the meeting (which I guess they forgot to hide because they didn't delete the SMS setting the meeting??? Doh).

So, the deletion is actually used to give a meaning to the "see you shortly" email that it would not have had if the underlying message was there.

May I see the warrant? They did not run this deletion point before Matteini. That would have been risky as either Amanda or Patrick might have piped up to object that they had not deleted anything.

 

[Antony]

I thought the cartoon was held by the prosecution with orders from the court that it not be released. How could BBC have gotten hold of it?

It was a still from the cartoon, labelled "Prosecution's reconstruction".

 

[Samson]

I have a question for everybody
I have heard an argument that the US should extradite Amanda back to Italy whether guilty or innocent.
The argument is that the US cannot have it both ways.
The problem though is that many countries, even ones which we have treaties with, will refuse to extradite defendants.
I don't see this as really being any different

Opinions?

I don't know, but there is a request by the US to NZ to extradite the German, Kim Dotcom, for internet piracy. In this case he has become entrenched in the political world, and is a folk hero to many. I was surprised yesterday to hear an interview with Judith Collins, minister of justice, stating categorically that she alone would make the decision, (assuming that is her status at the time of the conclusion of the court process). She sounded not the least concerned at pleasing the US or not, this wasn't even mentioned.

ETA this is a little misleading as he is compromising the current government, and horse trading with the opposition parties. It is fair to say he would probably be on the next plane.

 

[Diocletus]

May I see the warrant? They did not run this deletion point before Matteini. That would have been risky as either Amanda or Patrick might have piped up to object that they had not deleted anything.

I can't link it right now, buts it's on Amanda's blog site.

If the Cops really had not seen Patricks SMS to Amanda, imagine their surprise when Patrick subsequently gave them basically the same innocent story about the SMS. What to do now? Oh, I know! We'll point out to matteini how incriminating it is that Amanda said the the message said "don't come because I'm closed" whereas Patrick said that it said "don't become because there aren't enough customers". And, low and behold, the dopey judge took the bait.

Also, they withheld the dna results. What would matteoni have looked like with matching, innocuous stories on the text message, and exculpatory dna results. I bet they wouldn't have gone to jail for a year.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

the advantage of being vague

They did report on the BBC3 programme that unspecified witnesses had contradicted Amanda and Raff's alibi, without stating any details.

Antony,

Quintavalle's statement is not exactly a contradiction of Amanda's alibi. The time of the attack cannot possibly be 7:45 AM on 2 November. Personally, I would restrict the use of the term "alibi" to cover only this range of times, but I am not sure whether my usage of the term is universal or not. Curatolo contradicted their alibi but gave them a different one. I suspect that the writers were studiously vague for a reason.

Calling the cartoon a reconstruction is dubious at best.

 

[Strozzi]

I have a question for everybody
I have heard an argument that the US should extradite Amanda back to Italy whether guilty or innocent.
The argument is that the US cannot have it both ways.
The problem though is that many countries, even ones which we have treaties with, will refuse to extradite defendants.
I don't see this as really being any different

Opinions?

I don't know enough about US extradition to know if the US Government would agree. My understanding is that Italy files paperwork. The Department of State or Department of Justice verifies that the necessary claims and documents are provided. With that, a federal authority would take Amanda into custody in the Seattle area and detain her at a federal facility in the Seattle area. An attorney for Amanda immediately files a writ of habeas corpus (it's already prepared, just in case) compelling the government to demonstrate to the federal court probable cause to arrest her.

At that point 100 journalists, TV crews, and Entertainment Tonight descend on Seattle, the White House, Department of State, Department of Justice, and the Italian Embassy in Washington. Bill Clinton speaks up. The federal court holds a hearing, at which point some very heavy hitter attorneys, backed by ex-FBI homicide investigators and profilers, a forensic engineer, DNA experts, a former State Court judge, extradition attorneys, challenge the detention on grounds of double jeopardy, human rights violations, physical abuse, psychological torture, use of Reid technique, etc.

Who knows, maybe a courageous retired Italian judge named Hellman might appear in Seattle as an expert witness to testify to the court that the Italian process is corrupted (that should be worth a movie, don't you think?). Maybe the Grand Master of the Masons will appear? Perhaps Edgar Snowdon says the NSA has recordings of PLE phone conversations detailing wrongdoing and a conspiracy to frame an innocent American.

Then Donald Trumph calls for a boycott of Italy and acbytesla cancels his order for the Lamborghini. And London John stops cooking pasta and dirtying his kitchen wall. And I threaten to cut my daughter's allowance if she even thinks of buying Prada. And ten percent of the American students preparing to study in Italy next semester decide they would rather go to Paris instead.

Then some Seattle billionaires decide to fund the innocent project. And that movie is finally made. Starring Lindsey Lohan as Andrea Vogt. And Pussy Riot riots! Right before the next elections. And Obama says if he had a blond daughter, she'd look like Amanda and be born in America.

Then Mastercard rolls out the "Visit Italy" legal insurance credit card benefit, consisting of a wallet card in Italian asserting your legal rights and a silk hankie printed with a map showing escape routes over the Alps to neutral Switzerland - and I get royalties.

Then Dennis Rodman says he's taking his North Korean squad to play an exhibition game in Perugia. That's when the **** hits the fan!

Where was I?

 

[Dan O.]

I must have missed how it is known that he didn't delete it. He had a different phone by then and IIRC SMS messages were stored on phone memory not the sim card.

Patrick had 2 phones, 2 different sims with nearley identical IDs (only 1 digit different as disclosed in Matteini). These phones were on the same plan so calls and texts would go to both phones. Divulged in an interview with Frank, one of the phones was always left at the bar. Outgoing texts would be saved only on the sending phone. The outgoing text could have been on the phone the police never found.

 

[Caper]

I don't know enough about US extradition to know if the US Government would agree. My understanding is that Italy files paperwork. The Department of State or Department of Justice verifies that the necessary claims and documents are provided. With that, a federal authority would take Amanda into custody in the Seattle area and detain her at a federal facility in the Seattle area. An attorney for Amanda immediately files a writ of habeas corpus (it's already prepared, just in case) compelling the government to demonstrate to the federal court probable cause to arrest her.

At that point 100 journalists, TV crews, and Entertainment Tonight descend on Seattle, the White House, Department of State, Departmen of Justice, and the Italian Embassy in Washington. Bill Clinton speaks up. The federal court holds a hearing, at which point some very heavy hitter attorneys, backed by ex-FBI homicide investigators and profilers, a forensic engineer, DNA experts, a former State Court judge, extradition attorneys, challenge the detention on grounds of double jeopardy, human rights violations, physical abuse, psychological torture, use of Reid technique, etc.

Who knows, maybe a courageous retired Italian judge named Hellman might appear in Seattle as an expert witness to testify to the court that the Italian process is corrupted (that should be worth a movie, don't you think?). Maybe even the Grand Master of the Masons will appear? Maybe even Edgar Snowdon says the NSA has recordings of PLE's official and private phones detailing wrongdoing and a conspiracy to frame an innocent American.

Then Donald Trumph calls for a boycott of Italy and acbytesla cancels his order for the Lamborghini. And London John stops cooking pasta and dirtying his kitchen wall. And I threaten to cut my daughter's allowance if she even thinks of buying Prada. And ten percent of the American students preparing to study in Italy next semester decide they would rather go to Paris instead.

Then some Seattle people who are worth billions decide to fund the innocent project. And that movie is finally made. Starring Lindsey Lohan as Andrea Vogt. And Pussy Riot riots! Right before the next elections.

Then Mastercard rolls out the "Visit Italy" legal insuance credit card benefit, consisting of a wallet card in Italian asserting your legal rights and a silk hankie (made in China) printed with a map showing escape routes over the Alps to neutral Switzerland - and I get royalties.

Where was I?

Something like that. She will never go back to Italy to face jail time. It will never happen.

 

[Machiavelli]

There is an aggressive pattern that is integral to your posting, clear for all to see: a fundamental pillar of your case against Amanda Knox consists of your character assassination of every person or group who support her innocence. (...)

In turn, you give a pass - bending over backwards and into pretzel positions - to such demonstrable liars and idiots as Mignini, Stefanoni, Napoleoni, and Maresca.

I thought I read a rant against people called "demonstrable liars and idiots". Maybe you call 'pretzel' an argument which you can't answer to. I note down that I am the aggressive guy.

In fact, this is indicative of the simple truth that you have no legitimate or coherent case to make against Knox and Sollecito.

What a logical reasoning.

Incidental notes, just to drop in something. Novelli and Balding are probably two among the three top experts of bio-statistical methods applied to DNA forensics in Europe, Stefanoni is a member of ENFSI, certified iso 9001 and 17024; you could see a picture of Vecchiotti's refrigerator, she does not even have a freezer equipped with a temperature log, and not even with thermometer, and does not even protect samples with airproof wrapping. This should not require the adding of further comment.
You have plenty of evidence before your eyes about who is a proven liar; but as pother said, I can show people the evidence but you can't force someone to see it.

It's not my fault if some people are idiots. They are not a rare endangered kind.

There are people here who say Sabrina Misseri is innocent and Michele did it. Such is the state of their rational faculties. I know there are people who like Mario Spezi. His trial for the Narducci sidetracking case, set by the Supreme Court, is scheduled for April 8th (but he won't be able to attend, I think his helath is very bad). Would you like me to post an English translation of some document about Mario Spezi?

 

[Bill Williams]

I don't know enough about US extradition to know if the US Government would agree. My understanding is that Italy files paperwork. The Department of State or Department of Justice verifies that the necessary claims and documents are provided. With that, a federal authority would take Amanda into custody in the Seattle area and detain her at a federal facility in the Seattle area. An attorney for Amanda immediately files a writ of habeas corpus (it's already prepared, just in case) compelling the government to demonstrate to the federal court probable cause to arrest her.

At that point 100 journalists, TV crews, and Entertainment Tonight descend on Seattle, the White House, Department of State, Departmen of Justice, and the Italian Embassy in Washington. Bill Clinton speaks up. The federal court holds a hearing, at which point some very heavy hitter attorneys, backed by ex-FBI homicide investigators and profilers, a forensic engineer, DNA experts, a former State Court judge, extradition attorneys, challenge the detention on grounds of double jeopardy, human rights violations, physical abuse, psychological torture, use of Reid technique, etc.

Who knows, maybe a courageous retired Italian judge named Hellman might appear in Seattle as an expert witness to testify to the court that the Italian process is corrupted (that should be worth a movie, don't you think?). Maybe even the Grand Master of the Masons will appear? Maybe even Edgar Snowdon says the NSA has recordings of PLE's official and private phones detailing wrongdoing and a conspiracy to frame an innocent American.

Then Donald Trumph calls for a boycott of Italy and acbytesla cancels his order for the Lamborghini. And London John stops cooking pasta and dirtying his kitchen wall. And I threaten to cut my daughter's allowance if she even thinks of buying Prada. And ten percent of the American students preparing to study in Italy next semester decide they would rather go to Paris instead.

Then some Seattle people who are worth billions decide to fund the innocent project. And that movie is finally made. Starring Lindsey Lohan as Andrea Vogt. And Pussy Riot riots! Right before the next elections.

Then Mastercard rolls out the "Visit Italy" legal insuance credit card benefit, consisting of a wallet card in Italian asserting your legal rights and a silk hankie (made in China) printed with a map showing escape routes over the Alps to neutral Switzerland - and I get royalties.

Where was I?

I was going to LOL this... it is funny, really.

Except for Raffaele. And for the Kerchers. Someone printed something somewhere about some Italian politician denouncing the Mayor of Perugia (!) for not demanding Knox's immediate extradition to Italy to face trial. No one informed this politician that:

1) the Mayor of Perugia has no jurisdiction at all

2) that even Judge Nencini said that Knox was "lawfully abroad".​

But the "Let's blame Knox for tooth decay" brigade seems to be intact in Italy, because this politician ostensibly chewed out Perugia's embattled mayor for not responding adequately to the fall in business and students for the town in the last 6 years; this fall apparently because the mayor had not blamed Amanda for it!!!!

Meanwhile, people like Gloria Allred (11 months ago on Piers Morgan) says she counsels people from abroad NOT to do business in Italy because of a legal climate where the transition to an adversarial system is incomplete, and legislation to move the judiciary in that direction is constantly frustrated - apparently it erodes the power of P.M.s and prosecutors; but this is now being more widely seen as creating an unstable climate in the whole country for doing business.

Maybe they can find a way of blaming Amanda Knox for that.

Me, I am sitting here listening to a virtual teenager say that she'd only responded to the police, who kept showing her a text on her own phone and demanding to know if she'd witnessed a murder.

In short - it was Ficarra who "brought Lumumba into the room" for this naive virtual-teenager to agree, once she "buckled", that he was the one she was confusedly imagining down the hall killing Meredith. (All the while telling them she'd never left Raffaele's, something even Judge Massei agrees was her consistent claim!)

And on THAT confused remembrance, of the meaning of a text message Ficarra kept throwing in this virtual teenager's face (after a couple of well placed "taps on the head"), they rush out and arrest a guy who had an iron-clad alibi.

And for this - 100 journalists, TV crews, Entertainment Tonight descend on Seattle, the White House, Department of State, Department of Justice, and the Italian Embassy in Washington. Bill Clinton speaks up - as if Hillary actually needs the 18-30 female demographic to be elected in 2016!!! - and John Douglas testifies as do top DNA experts... testifying to a US court, where all the Perugian-court sins, not to mention now Cassazione, are laid bare to.....

...... erode further confidence in Italy.

Whither Raffaele and the Kerchers? Rudy Guede can go to hell, the forgotten man in this, as he gets the education he deprived Meredith of.

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

I thought I read a rant against people called "demonstrable liars and idiots". Maybe you call 'pretzel' an argument which you can't answer to. I note down that I am the aggressive guy.



What a logical reasoning.

Incidental notes, just to drop in something. Novelli and Balding are probably two among the three top experts of bio-statistical methods applied to DNA forensics in Europe, Stefanoni is a member of ENFSI, certified iso 9001 and 17024; you could see a picture of Vecchiotti's refrigerator, she does not even have a freezer equipped with a temperature log, and not even with thermometer, and does not even protect samples with airproof wrapping. This should not require the adding of further comment.
You have plenty of evidence before your eyes about who is a proven liar; but as pother said, I can show people the evidence but you can't force someone to see it.

It's not my fault if some people are idiots. They are not a rare endangered kind.

There are people here who say Sabrina Misseri is innocent and Michele did it. Such is the state of their rational faculties. I know there are people who like Mario Spezi. His trial for the Narducci sidetracking case, set by the Supreme Court, is scheduled for April 8th (but he won't be able to attend, I think his helath is very bad). Would you like me to post an English translation of some document about Mario Spezi?

Of course all translations are welcome, however if you do post translations, please post the originals too. Also don't post cherry-picked sections to suit your particular agenda please.

I also do not think you really wish to discuss evidence storage techniques among the various forensic people involved in this case. It could be very embarrassing for Stefanoni.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Neither Balding nor Novelli is a benchtop scientist in DNA profiling

Incidental notes, just to drop in something. Novelli and Balding are probably two among the three top experts of bio-statistical methods applied to DNA forensics in Europe, Stefanoni is a member of ENFSI, certified iso 9001 and 17024; you could see a picture of Vecchiotti's refrigerator, she does not even have a freezer equipped with a temperature log, and not even with thermometer, and does not even protect samples with airproof wrapping. This should not require the adding of further comment.

Dr. Balding is a statistician, not an expert in DNA forensics more generally. Dr. Novelli's research is more in the area of medical genetics. For example, this site lists his research interests as:
Genetics and genomics of rare Muscular Disorders
Identification of a novel autosomal dominant vacuolar neuromyopathy
cDNA array and analysis of gene expression in rare diseases
Characterization of the molecular pathways involved in the molecular defect causing MADA
Definition of clinical treatment for MAD

The research in DNA profiling that does come out of Dr. Novelli's lab is more in the area of single nucleotide polymorphisms, not short tandem repeats.

 

[Bill Williams]

There are people here who say Sabrina Misseri is innocent and Michele did it. Such is the state of their rational faculties. I know there are people who like Mario Spezi. His trial for the Narducci sidetracking case, set by the Supreme Court, is scheduled for April 8th (but he won't be able to attend, I think his helath is very bad). Would you like me to post an English translation of some document about Mario Spezi?

I, for one, would love to see you post something, anything, other than simply making assertions - without posting confirmatory evidence to justify them.

I've never met a person, either face to face or on line, who has made so many assertions, then called other idiots for not bowing to what is obvious to you.

One of your assertions was to say that stomach content analysis is 90% reliable, but then you go on to describe the 10% of times that it is not. THEN you say that this 10% should trump the 90%. Go figure.

 

[Machiavelli]

Does a fingerprint have to match in Italy or only be compatible? If three points of a print match is that enough?

If it matches it matches, if it's compatible, it's compatible.
There is a kind of compatibility that can be determined as probable identity based on context information.

Does a footprint need to match or just be close?

Nothing "needs" to be something. Things are what they are.

Does the substance that made a print need to be proven to be blood or just that it could be blood?

If it's proven it's proven, if it could be blood but it's not proven, then look at context information to infer what it points to.

Can you direct us to an explanation of how this so-called osmotic system officially works in Italy?

I think osmotic simply means that pieces may be a system and influence each other. The whole is more than the sum of the single parts.

Are you saying if a case can be osmotically made but the killing bullet didn't match the defendants gun it doesn't matter?

Questions like these are analitical extrapolations, therefore "osmotically" they make no sense. It makes no sense to decide wether guilt of the defendant should depend on the matching of a bullet or not, unless you know more about the context, the rest of the case.

 

[Machiavelli]

Dr. Balding is a statistician, not an expert in DNA forensics more generally. Dr. Novelli's research is more in the area of medical genetics. For example, this site lists his research interests as:
Genetics and genomics of rare Muscular Disorders
Identification of a novel autosomal dominant vacuolar neuromyopathy
cDNA array and analysis of gene expression in rare diseases
Characterization of the molecular pathways involved in the molecular defect causing MADA
Definition of clinical treatment for MAD

The research in DNA profiling that does come out of Dr. Novelli's lab is more in the area of single nucleotide polymorphisms, not short tandem repeats.

Novelli has been the director of a university master school in DNA forensics. But let's compare them to Vecchiotti. And take Stefanoni in comparison to Vecchiotti.
Vecchiotti is a coroner, she does not even perform DNA analysis routinely, it's not her job. Even less forensics. She is not a member of ENFSI; her laboratory has no kind of certification.
What Vecchiotti did on cases where she was involved, such as the Olgiata case, belogs to historical records.
She is capable of pasting what Budowle sends her, though.

 

[Bill Williams]

If it matches it matches, if it's compatible, it's compatible.
There is a kind of compatibility that can be determined as probable identity based on context information.



Nothing "needs" to be something. Things are what they are.



If it's proven it's proven, if it could be blood but it's not proven, then look at context information to infer what it points to.



I think osmotic simply means that pieces may be a system and influence each other. The whole is more than the sum of the single parts.



Questions like these are analitical extrapolations, therefore "osmotically" they make no sense. It makes no sense to decide wether guilt of the defendant should depend on the matching of a bullet or not, unless you know more about the context, the rest of the case.

You've accomplished the impossible... you've made me want to rush to Grinder's defence. In a sense, you're a miracle worker.....

 

[Bill Williams]

Novelli has been the director of a university master school in DNA forensics. But let's compare them to Vecchiotti. And take Stefanoni in comparison to Vecchiotti.
Vecchiotti is a coroner, she does not even perform DNA analysis routinely, it's not her job. Even less forensics. She is not a member of ENFSI; her laboratory has no kind of certification.
What Vecchiotti did on cases where she was involved, such as the Olgiata case, belogs to historical records.
She is capable of pasting what Budowle sends her, though.

Wait a minute - I thought you accused Vecchiotti of being part of a criminal conspiracy? Like like you've accused Hellmann of being part of a Masonic conspiracy to pervert justice in Italy?

Which criticism of them do you stand by? Or do you simply make things up as needs present themselves?

 

[js202]

I thought I read a rant against people called "demonstrable liars and idiots". Maybe you call 'pretzel' an argument which you can't answer to. I note down that I am the aggressive guy.



What a logical reasoning.

Incidental notes, just to drop in something. Novelli and Balding are probably two among the three top experts of bio-statistical methods applied to DNA forensics in Europe, Stefanoni is a member of ENFSI, certified iso 9001 and 17024; you could see a picture of Vecchiotti's refrigerator, she does not even have a freezer equipped with a temperature log, and not even with thermometer, and does not even protect samples with airproof wrapping. This should not require the adding of further comment.
You have plenty of evidence before your eyes about who is a proven liar; but as pother said, I can show people the evidence but you can't force someone to see it.

It's not my fault if some people are idiots. They are not a rare endangered kind.

There are people here who say Sabrina Misseri is innocent and Michele did it. Such is the state of their rational faculties. I know there are people who like Mario Spezi. His trial for the Narducci sidetracking case, set by the Supreme Court, is scheduled for April 8th (but he won't be able to attend, I think his helath is very bad). Would you like me to post an English translation of some document about Mario Spezi?

Piffle.