Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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The prosecution needs to prove their whole argument, that is only what they need to prove guilt, not a specific argument chosen by the defence.

Does a fingerprint have to match in Italy or only be compatible? If three points of a print match is that enough?

Does a footprint need to match or just be close?

Does the substance that made a print need to be proven to be blood or just that it could be blood?

Can you direct us to an explanation of how this so-called osmotic system officially works in Italy?

Are you saying if a case can be osmotically made but the killing bullet didn't match the defendants gun it doesn't matter?
 
Isn't there some kind of logical fallacy in claiming the Kerchers have been showing the world a "dignified silence" while their mouthpiece Maresca has been trashing Raffaele and Amanda relentlessly on their behalf for years?
 
Mignini reported said he regrets not allowing Lalli to take the body temperature earlier. Mignini deliberately delayed it until midnight. I would like to ask why Mignini delayed it? What could his reason have been?

Perhaps he thought that TOD was a low priority and didn't wish to risk disturbing the evidence. This now seems totally absurd, but this case is unusual in having the exact time be so important. I doubt that the temperature taken earlier would have been able to determine the TOD closer than the other factors including digestion that are known.

They wouldn't know if the door had been open all night, if the duvet had been over her the whole time or if the heat had been on at TOD.
 
In this recording, said to have been taped at Capanne on 17th November 2007, what does Amanda say at about 34 seconds? Is it:

'moments before I said Patrick's name somebody was showing me the message that I was sent on the phone'.

It's not distinct but I cannot make it sound like 'the message I sent on the phone'. I guess everyone knows why this is of interest to me. Listen a few times and tell me what you think. Mach, can you order up the transcript please?
 
The chaplain Don Saulo is a notorious idiot. He was known for being an redneck when he was working as a priest in a parrish in the outskirts of Perugia.


There is an aggressive pattern that is integral to your posting, clear for all to see: a fundamental pillar of your case against Amanda Knox consists of your character assassination of every person or group who support her innocence. We ordinary supporters are criminals and racists. Pratillo Hellmann is a criminal who was bought off by Masons and US media conglomerates. Perhaps most preposterous, Conti & Vecchiotti are less qualified than the hapless Stefanoni. And, of course, liars, to boot. Now this poor priest has been relegated to the heap of idiots, and branded a "redneck."

In turn, you give a pass - bending over backwards and into pretzel positions - to such demonstrable liars and idiots as Mignini, Stefanoni, Napoleoni, and Maresca.

In fact, this is indicative of the simple truth that you have no legitimate or coherent case to make against Knox and Sollecito. Character assassination and crazy, inside-out theories on the evidence are all you've got. Of course, that's all the Italian judiciary has ever had, too.
 
The clues were right there in front of the police yet they refused to look. So many of the PGP talk about how little was taken. That's because burglary was a secondary motive.

Rudy clearly wasn't an ordinary burglar and fell into that dangerous subgroup. The clues are in all the burglaries that Rudy probably committed that we know. The simple fact that Rudy was "surprised" during two of them. Christian Tremantano and the nursery in Milan. I believe that there his neighbor which he also committed arson showed evidence of the burglar eating from the kitchen as well.

Rudy has all the signs of being a budding dangerous sexual predator.

Other than appearing in one true crime novel do you have any proof of the whole neighbor story? As has been pointed out this wasn't arson even if you believe Nina.
 
In this recording, said to have been taped at Capanne on 17th November 2007, what does Amanda say at about 34 seconds? Is it:

'moments before I said Patrick's name somebody was showing me the message that I was sent on the phone'.

It's not distinct but I cannot make it sound like 'the message I sent on the phone'. I guess everyone knows why this is of interest to me. Listen a few times and tell me what you think. Mach, can you order up the transcript please?

Yes, I believe that is what she said: "message that I was sent on the phone."
 
With all due respect, CoulsdonUK, you are now yourself moving the goalposts and blaming the media for it.

Goalposts, I guess it depends on the type of football you’re playing.

What do you mean; are you suggesting that the Kercher family coined this phrase?

A wonderful book by John Kercher is spolied by him devoting half of it to the prosecution's case against Amanda Knox, Raffaele being almost forgotten. Little mention of Guede.

Ok that is your opinion and possibly others, but it was his book about his daughter who was brutally murdered, he believes Raffaele and Amanda are culpable.

What I agree with you on, is that if I had had a loved one murdered, and I had had authorities telling me that two convictions were sound, and that the acquittal was a travesty, I would have been far, far, far less restrained than them. Indeed, that is the one part of this I actually do understand. So I am with you on that one.

But, with due respect.... I've just finished a convo with a friend in England who is leaning towards innocence for K/S, but the surest way to press his button is to say anything remotely "critical" of the Kerchers.

I think attacking the murder victim’s family is a public relations disaster for Raffaele and Amanda, but hey what do I know? I can understand and share your friends reaction.

What he agrees with is that innocent people should not go to jail, and on that even Lyle Kercher agrees. In fact, I cannot imagine ANYONE in the Kercher family wishing innocent people to pay for this horror.

What I don't get, though, is now that "the gloves are coming off", the Kerchers can still be defended - only on the point of them, themselves, inserting themselves into the adjudication of this travesty against K/S.

What does that mean “the gloves are coming off", their daughter\sister has been brutally murdered and now they should be concerned with Raffaele and Amanda’s supporters are going to say about the case; you know whenever I read “the gloves are coming off" it comes across as a threat, you only need one crazy person to take that literally.

Once again, is it only the media which is the problem here? Is the media ignoring their demands to have Rudy Guede locked up? Is it the media who put the spin to it that the Kerchers only focus upon Knox, and everyone else is forgotten?

Certainly from the interviews I have seen they respond to the questions put to them, those questions are usually in relation to Amanda (the media’s focus); Guede and Raffaele are pretty much forgotten. Guede I can understand to a point as he is in prison, but even here Raffaele is pretty much a second thought, if a thought at all, it is the main reason I tend to write “Raffaele and Amanda” rather than the default “Amanda”

If going on about Guede would mean his sentence would be reviewed and extended then I am all for mentioning is name as much as possible, but we both know that he’ll be out far too soon, is this unusual in the Italian penal system, I don’t know, do you?

I don’t know whether the Italian system as an equivalent of a “victim impact statement” as part of any parole process, if they do then I am sure the Kerchers would privately make they feelings very clear.
 
CoulsdonUK - what I am saying is that no one, victims included, has the right to use discredited evidence to vilify other innocents. So far you seem to be saying that this is a bad PR move to be critical of victims who insert themselves this way.

Too bad. Victimizing others provides no closure.
 
I don’t know whether the Italian system as an equivalent of a “victim impact statement” as part of any parole process, if they do then I am sure the Kerchers would privately make they feelings very clear.

Oh, I hope so. Otherwise, how would be ever get to hear their side of the story . . . well, apart from the court proceedings, press conferences, the civil lawsuits and the book.

Personally, I think the lot of them suffer from some sort of Munchhausen's disorder.
 
In this recording, said to have been taped at Capanne on 17th November 2007, what does Amanda say at about 34 seconds? Is it:

'moments before I said Patrick's name somebody was showing me the message that I was sent on the phone'.

It's not distinct but I cannot make it sound like 'the message I sent on the phone'. I guess everyone knows why this is of interest to me. Listen a few times and tell me what you think. Mach, can you order up the transcript please?

BTW. Does Mignini even listen to the answers that she is giving? It seems like he is just reading off a list of questions with no concern or interest whatsoever in whatever answer she gives.
 
Part of me feels that Italian public opinion will break when RS is in prison for years on end and Amanda is living her life in the US and RG is off doing whatever he did. Collateral damage is what RS always was... He's what they had to take down in order to go after what they hate.... It won't taste as good when he is the only damage.
 
Surely it also needs to be considered osmotically with all other evidence or are the standards of proof different for defence arguments as opposed to prosecution? Equally (or more) uncertain pieces of evidence are considered by prosecution as part of a holistic whole.



I have previously referenced (in reply to you) scientific papers (e.g. Ann Surg. 1995 Dec;222(6):728-34) showing that stress makes no significant difference to time to stomach emptying. This stress story is a factoid. Unless you can provide evidence to refute the scientific studies I have referenced you need to withdraw this argument. Poorly baked bread does not delay gastric emptying.



That you are ignorant of a fact, does not make it unknown. It would be a rather narcissistic trait to assume that because something is unknown to you it is unknown to everyone. If we take an insertion of a gastric balloon as a surrogate of having a second meal we see (Neurogastroenterol Motil. 2010 Sep;22(9):1016-21, e265-6. doi: 10.1111/j.1365-2982.2010.01525.x. Epub 2010 Jun 1.) a delay of 40min. If we look at variation in how much one eats we can see a change from onset to gastric emptying (mean sem) from 35.6 ± 4.1 min to 80 ± 8.7 min. (Alcohol Alcohol. 2005 May-Jun;40(3):187-93. Epub 2005 Feb 7). So although there is an impact we know the magnitude. I could go on.



You repeat the fallacy re stress. It is irrelevant to your argument whether the stress began shortly after 21.00 or death occurred then, since there is definite alibi for RS and AK at that time. Also you need to consider RG movements. Excluding his eyewitness report of time of death, his movements also put an upper time limit to events. You also need to consider the broken down car and pick up truck osmotically these result in a very narrow time window.

As I have said I do not know if the Italian system requires a different level of proof for defence vs prosecution. The defence can present a scenario that should be examined osmotically, when doing this it can account for all the evidence. It presents a coherent story. This includes such evidence as complete lack of injuries on AK or RS and lack of evidence of their presence in MK room. The DNA on the bra fastener has no time stamp or place stamp - given that the prosecution destroyed this crucial piece of evidence denying the defence an opportunity to re-examine it this does leave some doubt, and the lack of explanation of how the DNA came to be there; the bra was pulled apart, so there is no reason for the hook to have been touched this uncertainty is exactly the same in form as the uncertainty you argue for with regards to gastric emptying.

Nicely done. No factoids here :D
 
I disagree, relatively speaking they haven’t said that much publicly; how many articles has John Kercher written in the past six years?

I realise you and others may believe he shouldn’t have written a book but that is no more than what Raffaele and Amanda have done.

If one is to accept that the Sollecito and Knox families have the right to speak about the case from their perspective, I do not understand how the same right should not be applied to the murder victim’s family.

It is not about whether you agree or disagree with their view of the case but acknowledging they have the right to speak about how the murder of their daughter\sister has affected them.

Coulsdon, I have great sympathy for the Kercher family who have suffered a terrible loss.

However, they have, through their agents, smeared Knox and actively participated in the trials to convict Knox and Sollecito. On that, they should not be a protected class.

They know darned well that many questions have arisen about how the police and Mignini treated (trashed) the crime scene, chose and targeted Knox and Sollecito, selectively developed (or disregarded) evidence in the case, analyzed some of it, and reported or withheld their analysis and supporting data. Can you please tell me where I can read comments by any of the Kerchers regarding this?

I will also ask you 2 very pointed questions which you may prefer to duck. How much do the Kerchers stand to gain financially from Knox and Sollecito if their convictions are upheld by the Italian Supreme Court? How much do they stand to lose if the European Court of Human Rights determines that the way the defendants were targeted, interrogated, and tried is a violation of their human rights and orders Italy to vacate the convictions?

I know Meredith was concerned for her mother's medical condition. I mean this sincerely that I hope Mrs. Kercher's health remains good for many years to come. I want her to know before her life ends that her daughter's housemate/friend Amanda is innocent of the crime and that Raffaele who met Meredith only twice and barely knew her is also innocent.
 
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BTW. Does Mignini even listen to the answers that she is giving? It seems like he is just reading off a list of questions with no concern or interest whatsoever in whatever answer she gives.

The tenor of the exchange is that he is not having any of this nonsense. A confession is a confession.
 
I disagree, relatively speaking they haven’t said that much publicly; how many articles has John Kercher written in the past six years?

I realise you and others may believe he shouldn’t have written a book but that is no more than what Raffaele and Amanda have done.

If one is to accept that the Sollecito and Knox families have the right to speak about the case from their perspective, I do not understand how the same right should not be applied to the murder victim’s family.

It is not about whether you agree or disagree with their view of the case but acknowledging they have the right to speak about how the murder of their daughter\sister has affected them.

The defendants and their family et al. are fighting against the state trying to find them guilty. One reason we don't have the victim or the victim's family prosecuting the defendants is that we as a society wish to avoid retribution, revenge and emotional involvement during a trial.

The Kerchers shouldn't be involved in the prosecution. If they are going after the defendants then they do open themselves up to a certain amount of criticism.

I can't believe that we have another story headlined that Meredith has been forgotten. Google "Meredith forgotten" and a BBC story from 2011 comes up as the first hit. There are a thousand hits with that specific search.

Meredith may be history's least forgotten common person that was murdered.
 
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The “dignified silence” is a media description, they have certainly been less vocal than I would have been, so I admire their restraint.

What would you have done? What would you have said? Are you saying that you would have gone after Rudy more?

You must consider what they AND their lawyers said as the sum of what they conveyed to the public, correct?
 
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