Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Samson said:
They would become clear sighted if their daughter was Amanda Knox
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If it had been Amada who returned to the cottage that night at 9 pm, Amanda would have been killed, for it did not make a difference which young woman came home that evening. There was an armed burglar in the toilet who became trapped in the flat.

Meredith would have been interrogated, manipulated, and then terrorized to confess, and would be serving 28 years in an Italian prison. Her parents and siblings would be beside themselves trying to get the court to see reason.

The prosecutor would have used Meredith's history against her. She starred in a UK rock video. She had an arrest record for drunkenness and sassing the police. She didn't have a real Erasmus scholarship. She smoked pot with guys. She was falling-down drunk at the disco and dressed like a vampire on Halloween. She was intimate with the rocker downstairs, flagrantly left her vaseline out for every visitor to see, and when Silenzi went home for the weekend and didn't invite her to meet his respectable family, Meredith teamed up with Rudy for raunchy sex and killed Amanda for money or drugs. Yes, killed Amanda, the young, studious, hardworking girl from Seattle who liked to write pretty verse and wanted to become an Italian language translator. The police chief would have gone in front of the cameras and announced "Meredith told us what we knew to be correct. Case closed."
 
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Grinder said:
I think you are both liars because no one could possibly hear those things over the din of the dogs barking in the valley.
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But the Italian legal question is "Is it compatible"? Does it fit "osmotically"?
 
anglolawyer said:
They erased it because it did not fit their theory. It got erased physically from her phone and, well, literally from the 5.45 document. You need to track that down and compare it to the 1.45 version. You will see the 1.45 job incongruously states what Patrick's message really said.

Now, the reason you think it unlikely is that you don't understand these thugs pretending to be cops. They plucked Raf's kitchen knife, beat up Patrick, threatened people, destroyed stuff. When crossed they scratch your car etc. They are criminals (or, more simply, 'liars' as Amanda describes them) so you should not be surprised when they do criminal things. You are like Thoughtful who, when presented with clear evidence of skulduggery in the lab, just shrugs and says she highly doubts that anyone would behave like that. It's people like you and her that let people like them get away with it.

You ask why her team made nothing off it. I can only guess. Here are three theories:

  1. They didn't think of it (after all, she didn't)
  2. Their strategy throughout was to avoid at all costs any imputation of impropriety
  3. It ceased to be relevant to any live issue once Guede replaced Lumumba (this also applies to De Felice's famed remark, a point I don't think you get)
I am alone in having an osmotic theory of the whole thing because I see the universe in a drop of water. That is the real importance of the lamp, the deleted text and several other key things like the bleach receipts to pluck one at random.

What I am telling you, Grinder, is that you have followed this case from the beginning, for more than 6 years, without even beginning to comprehend it.
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You, sir, are a bad, bad man.
 
Strozzi said:
If it had been Amada who returned to the cottage that night at 9 pm, Amanda would have been killed, for it did not make a difference which young woman came home that evening. There was an armed burglar in the toilet who became trapped in the flat.

Meredith would have been interrogated, manipulated, and then terrorized to confess, and would be serving 28 years in an Italian prison. Her parents and siblings would be beside themselves trying to get the court to see reason.

The prosecutor would have used Meredith's history against her. She starred in a UK rock video. Had an arrest record for drunkenness and sassing the police. She didn't have a real Erasmus scholarship. She smoked pot with guys. She was falling-down drunk at the disco and dressed like a vampire on Halloween. She was intimate with the rocker downstairs, flagrantly left her vaseline out for every visitor to see, and when Silenzi went home for the weekend and didn't invite her to meet his respectable family, Meredith teamed up with Rudy for raunchy sex and killed Amanda for money or drugs. Yes, killed Amanda, the young, studious, hardworking girl from Seattle. The police chief would have gone in front of the cameras and announced "Meredith told us what we knew to be correct. Case closed."
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Question is if Amanda's parents would be after Meredeth still today
 
anglolawyer said:
What I am telling you, Grinder, is that you have followed this case from the beginning, for more than 6 years, without even beginning to comprehend it.
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Well Mr. only went to law school for a year guy, :p

If in fact the PLE moved to frame Amanda from before her statement you are correct that I have not fully comprehended what transpired.

As you can see unlike many I did honestly tell you that I heard her say they showed me his text. That alone wouldn't be very significant as in her state at the time saying they showed me his text instead of my text could be a slip of the tongue but this must be added to the Beijing reporter's story.

At this time I still think it is more likely that a PLE erased it by mistake and lied to cover his incompetence.

That does not mean that I think they aren't thugs.
 
When did Lyle say that?

Diocletus said:
Per Lyle:

“Whilst we pressed for the last conviction, it wasn’t a case of celebrating when the conviction came through.”
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Diocletus,

Is this from today's BBC documentary, or a previous story?
EDT
Found a story from 2011 at HuffPost.
 
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Grinder said:
Well Mr. only went to law school for a year guy, :p

If in fact the PLE moved to frame Amanda from before her statement you are correct that I have not fully comprehended what transpired.

As you can see unlike many I did honestly tell you that I heard her say they showed me his text. That alone wouldn't be very significant as in her state at the time saying they showed me his text instead of my text could be a slip of the tongue but this must be added to the Beijing reporter's story.

At this time I still think it is more likely that a PLE erased it by mistake and lied to cover his incompetence.

That does not mean that I think they aren't thugs.
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:mad::mad::mad: No! Scream!!! One, two, three, four ... breathe ... five, six ...

I will explain this slowly. Before I do, you get no points for being honest. In fact, plenty of others said they heard what you heard anyway but Grinder is soooo self-centred :). What you don't get is the cops thought she did it and were willing to break any rule you can think of to nail her. It's their modus operandi. It's not one or the other - it's both.
 
Strawberry said:
A documentary called "Is Amanda Knox Guilty?" will be broadcast on BBC 3 at 9pm Monday February 17th. The programme is co-produced by Andrea Vogt and features interviews with Meredith Kercher's family, Mignini and others. It also contains an audio recording – which has not been heard in public before – of part of Knox's police interrogation.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/17/meredith-kercher-knox-sollecito-family-murdered
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Kercher, 21, from Coulsdon, Surrey, was on a university exchange in Perugia. She was murdered on 2 November 2007, having been strangled and stabbed about 40 times.
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Are they changing the time of death again?
 
Diocletus said:
<Snip>

Personally, I think the lot of them suffer from some sort of Munchhausen's disorder.
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I guess it could be the result of the ongoing effects of having your daughter\sister brutally murdered then the global media picking up the case and a judicial process taking the best part of a decade to reach a verdict. Wouldn’t surprise me if they to a varying degree are all suffering from post traumatic stress disorder, both Mr and Mrs Kercher have ongoing health concerns.

Strozzi said:
Coulsdon, I have great sympathy for the Kercher family who have suffered a terrible loss.

However, they have, through their agents, smeared Knox and actively participated in the trials to convict Knox and Sollecito. On that, they should not be a protected class.
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That is the opinion of someone who believes in Raffaele and Amanda’s innocence, just as accurate to say they believe in the prosecution’s case based on their public comments.

They know darned well that many questions have arisen about how the police and Mignini treated (trashed) the crime scene, chose and targeted Knox and Sollecito, selectively developed (or disregarded) evidence in the case, analyzed some of it, and reported or withheld their analysis and supporting data. Can you please tell me where I can read comments by any of the Kerchers regarding this?
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Given their recent comments after the Florence verdict I don’t believe the Kercher family share your perspective. This is what it will come down to for them, they believe in the prosecution’s case.

I will also ask you 2 very pointed questions which you may prefer to duck. How much do the Kerchers stand to gain financially from Knox and Sollecito if their convictions are upheld by the Italian Supreme Court?
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I have no idea, I personally do not believe the family are motivated by money, any more than Raffaele or Amanda were attempting to cash in by writing their books.

How much do they stand to lose if the European Court of Human Rights determines that the way the defendants were targeted, interrogated, and tried is a violation of their human rights and orders Italy to vacate the convictions?
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The Kercher family have been given a life sentence, no hyperbole but a simple fact so understandably their focus is Meredith their daughter\sister who was brutally murder; they do seem aware that this case is far from over.

I know Meredith was concerned for her mother's medical condition. I mean this sincerely that I hope Mrs. Kercher's health remains good for many years to come. I want her to know before her life ends that her daughter's housemate/friend Amanda is innocent of the crime and that Raffaele who met Meredith only twice and barely knew her is also innocent.
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Mr Kercher suffered a stroke and Mrs Kercher doesn’t enjoy good health.

I believe it is wholly possible for people to believe in Raffaele and Amanda’s innocence without attacking the Kercher family.

Anyway, maybe LondonJohn or Anglo can provide a summary of the BBC3 programme.
 
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Why do so many people want the Kercher family silenced, or to only comment in a manner which suits the innocent side, yet give AK and her family free rein?

Both sides have the right to their opinion and a right to voice it.

Live with the Kerchers' comments or ignore them. Yelling "no fair" is pointless and somewhat childish in my opinion.
 
Obfuscation is one way to go

Planigale said:
platonov said:
Originally Posted by Planigale
FWIW RG was not charged or convicted of sexual assault of MK despite evidence of sexual contact (I do not know if the family were agreeable to this); AK and RS were charged with sexual assault (although there is zero evidence of sexual contact) the family seem agreeable to this. Whilst I cannot reference family views this is clearly the prosecution view and the family seem supportive of the prosecution approach in general.
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Nothing – as it happens.

But in the vast panoply of bizarre arguments posted in Cartwheel world this appears to be new & thus provokes my interest.

So (in JREF parlance)

Evidences ?
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It would be helpful if you specified exactly what evidence you wanted.

1) Is it that AK and RS were charged and convicted by Massei of sexual assault and theft (see Massei) art 110, 609 b) and c), art 624

2) Is it that RG DNA found in MK vagina? Micheli report

3) Is it That no AK and no RS DNA found on the body of MK? Micheli / Massei reports

4) Is it that RG DNA found on MK purse /handbag Micheli report

5) Is it that RG was not charged or convicted of theft? Micheli report

6) Is it that RG was not charged with sexual assault? Micheli report

RG only charged and convicted under article 576 (homicide).
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Wow.

You made the argument - that RG's charge didn't include the sexual aggravation component but the 2 'kids' did – and now you want me to explain your own argument to you.

I'm glad I didn’t get into the complicated 'broken window' perplexity.

So – evidences please.


Take you time – as the evidence doesn’t exist you will need lots of it.
 
Well the BBC3 programme is already dreadful - they've firstly claimed that Amanda was different to Meredith due to her attitudes to hygiene, money and sex - and they've now also claimed that Raffaele called the police after the postal police arrived - and now that the rock was too big to go through the windows - and now onto two knifes - and now onto too many wounds and even showing the cartoon.

And according to Comodi, not even Superman could have attacked Meredith due to her karate background
 
Oh dear oh dear.

The "documentary" has just stated, with factual certainty, that Sollecito's phone call to the Carabinieri came after the Postal Police had arrived.

Never mind that it is now pretty conclusively established that the Postal Police didn't arrive until some time shortly before 1pm (and after Sollecito's call to the Carabinieri), at the very least this was always a contentious issue. The documentary makes it sound as though Sollecito calling the Carabinieri after the arrival of the Postal Police is an established, uncontested fact.

Russell pulled this trick in "Darkness Descending". In fact, it was one of the major factors behind my initial belief in guilt - my introduction to this case was reading that book. It's intellectual dishonesty of the highest order, especially in 2014 when we know with a fair degree of certainty that this assertiion is factually incorrect.

As I continue to watch the "documentary", it is presenting more and more prosecutorial assertions as unassailable facts. One of the instances is the breezy assertion that it's a commonly-agreed opinion that the wounds on Meredith are only consistent with multiple attackers.

It's still happening. Untruths and misinterpretations are constantly being presented as uncontested facts. And - surprise, surprise - so far all of them are not in Knox's (and Sollecito's -remember him??) favour.

This is a disgraceful distortion of the facts going on here. Those who made this documentary should be ashamed of the way in which they have distorted facts and the way in which (so far) they have presented the prosecution theory as fact. Vogt and Russell, by this measure, are intellectual frauds and disgraces to their profession.
 
Seriously, so far the entire documentary is coming across as if it had been scripted by Harry Rag or Peter Quennell. It really is that shockingly bad and intellectually bankrupt.

All I can say is that it's a good job that not many people will be watching this programme. As I pointed out before, it's on a small-fry BBC channel that usually focuses on teen fluff ("Sun, Sea, Sex and Suspicious Parents" is one of its current flagship programmes). In addition, there's a fairly high-profile documentary airing at the same time on BBC One about The First World War.
 
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