Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[acbytesla]

I am not interested in who Amanda Knox "really is" and rightly so, because "who" she "is" has no relevance in relation with facts about the case, and this is something obvious to any rational person. (however, still Knox is the person who appears, not the person the pro-Knox advocates describe).

This in itself says all you need to know about Machiavelli's ranting. He is NOT INTERESTED in who Amanda Knox "really is" NO he would rather demonize her out of ignorance. Why let the facts get in the way of a really good juicy story.

Machiavelli writes

"and rightly so"?

"has no relevance to the facts about the case"?

"something obvious to any rational person"?

"has no relevance"

"and this is something obvious to any rational person".????

Head in the sand ignorance, determined to hold on to their beliefs and not the facts. "irrelevant to their "faith".

• The earth was created in 7 days.
• The Earth is fact only 6,000 years old.
• Evolution is a lie".
• Global Warming is a lie
• Obama was born in Kenya
• Weapons of mass destruction in Iraq
• The holocaust is a myth

"however, still Knox is the person who appears, not the person the pro-Knox advocates describe"

Millions of people like Machiavelli will come up with elaborate arguments for all of these things. They will in fact invest billions of dollars to making each and every one of these lies believable. They will hire scientists, lawyers, and academics to support the unsupportable. Anything to show that the Emperor is wearing clothes. Hard core Christians have been denying science since long before Galileo. The facts and evidence is irrelevant. They are going to crucify Christ regardless of his guilt or innocence. The same is true of Galileo and I'm afraid the same is true of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito.

So, to Machiavelli and his absurdities, I'd like to say to "Eppur si muove."

And if you don't get the phrase.....please, please, please, Google it.

 

[Grinder]

dup.

 

[Grinder]

In this recording, said to have been taped at Capanne on 17th November 2007, what does Amanda say at about 34 seconds? Is it:

'moments before I said Patrick's name somebody was showing me the message that I was sent on the phone'.

It's not distinct but I cannot make it sound like 'the message I sent on the phone'. I guess everyone knows why this is of interest to me. Listen a few times and tell me what you think. Mach, can you order up the transcript please?

It sounds that way to me as well.

Charlie perhaps you could ask Amanda if she was shown Patrick's incoming message or not.

If it was the case that she was shown that message it raises the question why the defense team never made an issue of it.

An incoming message that said you don't have to come in still could been interpreted as mafia style, code or speak by the police.

I find the idea the police would erase the incoming on purpose to be unlikel, but the tape makes it sound like she saw it.

ETA - Anglo without sending me to Groundreport can you explain why the police would erase the incoming message? When would they have erased it?

Repeating, I think that they would have just said that the message from Patrick was in mafia style and meant the caper was on for that night. If they erased the message then I think it was the old truth about the PLE - incompetence.

 

[Welshman]

The description of Knox's behavior at the police station as described by the people who were actually there witnessing her glee-like behavior: she laughed, kissed, cuddled, joked, stuck out her tongue etc. ...it's a pretty sickening account.

Rudy stabbed Meredith, sexually assaulted her as she lay dying, stole her belongings and then went dancing but people such as Vibio never condemn Rudy for inappropriate behaviour.

 

[RoseMontague]

Thanks Diocletus. Anyone else?

Can't really tell but I can hear some kids walking on the snow in that park about 3 blocks from here. Sounds pretty slushy.

 

[acbytesla]

I agree that there are indications that Guede was initially in no hurry to exit - to steal and get out of there the fastest possible.

I believe "little" was taken because Guede's burglary was interrupted when Kercher came home. If nobody had interrupted him, he (taking his own sweet time) would have taken more - laptops, the camera on the kitchen counter, jewelry if he thought he could sell it, or drugs found while searching in anyone's drawers.

Have the police or prosecution claimed that valuable items left behind are "proof" of a staged break-in/staged burglary? (They obviously don't regard items being left behind as the result of a burglary cut short by a murder and flight.)

Yes to all of this. The lack of more theft has been argued over and over that this wasn't in fact a burglary. That a "professional" burglar would have taken more.

The problem of course is that true professional burglar wouldn't have killed Meredith. They would have fled instead of confronting Meredith. They would have been only interested in material gain and as little risk as possible. They wouldn't stop to take a dump in the middle of their actions.

Rudy wasn't a typical "professional" burglar. No, he falls under the category of sexual or fetish burglar. One who enjoys the excitement and increased tension of breaking in, risking getting caught. Kind of like lovers that risk getting caught having sex in a public place. The element of danger adds to the excitement. Combine that with invading the private space of his victims creates a sexual high if only subliminally. Hanging out is extended foreplay. Making the high last...even increasing it, because internally the sexual burglar knows that the longer he is inside his victims homes, the chance of being caught goes up exponentially.

Rudy I'm sure would have got around to taking more if he wasn't interrupted, After killing Meredith, his thinking becomes clouded and the self preservation instinct becomes preeminent.

I think...although this is total conjecture. That Rudy going to the disco was in fact part of his sexual high. Still surrounded by women, he can live in the demented glory of his sick conquest.

 

[Strozzi]

There is an aggressive pattern that is integral to your posting, clear for all to see: a fundamental pillar of your case against Amanda Knox consists of your character assassination of every person or group who support her innocence. . .

JS, I was going to join with you in what you wrote about Machiavelli making personal attacks on anyone who supports the two defendants' innocence. In fact, I was going to recommend that Father Don Saulo register with JREF to protect himself from personal attacks by Machiavelli.

But, on second thought, I don't want to discourage it. I welcome it if it is a reflection of what various people in Perugia are really saying about Don Saulo.

Machiavelli is a valued contributor here because he speaks his mind, even though he is often wrong. I'm sure Don Saulo will forgive him, and I will too. Machiavelli also takes a lot of personal abuse from others here, including "mi" from time to time.

As a man living his religious and moral convictions, Don Saulo might take the "redneck" comment as a real compliment. He would probably be pleased to learn that he is getting similar treatment as the pro-guilt faction dishes out to Hellman.

 

[GWCarver]

I hope Amanda doesn't mind me bringing this over here, but for those who wonder what the civil lawyers are actually saying about her and Raffaele in court, here are her notes on the closing arguments of civil attorneys E. Vieri Fabiani, Serena Perna, & Francesco Maresca for the Kercher family from her blog:

UPDATE

"For everyone’s convenience, I’ve started taking notes on these closing arguments, starting with the civil attorneys for the Kercher family. I haven’t made it all the way through (it’s emotionally difficult), but here, so far, are the arguments of this civil party:

Guede was definitively found guilty of having committed murder with accomplices. There is no reasonable alternative for who Guede’s accomplices might have been.

Knox was definitively found guilty of having committed slander. The slander is connected to the murder. It is further proof of her involvement because it was an attempt to lead the investigation astray.

Sollecito’s claim that his DNA on the bra clasp was the result of contamination is phoney. The contamination doesn’t exist.

Sollecito always carried a pocket knife with him, and he did the night of the murder. It was just never found.

Even if there’s the minimal chance that the DNA on the blade isn’t Meredith’s, it is the DNA of someone whose throat was cut with the knife.

Knox knew that the violence was perpetrated by a person of color. She accused Lumumba instead of Guede because she wanted to lead the investigation astray from her companion and his apartment.

Knox knew that Meredith screamed.

Knox knew that Meredith’s throat had been cut.

Knox knew that there was blood everywhere and that Meredith’s body had been covered.

The independent review of the forensic evidence is not the principle proof of guilt because it is subject to diverse interpretation.

The principle proof of guilt is the congruence of the circumstantial evidence.

There is no valid and reasonable alternative to the evidence of guilt.

The motive is irrelevant because the will to murder has been amply demonstrated.

The claim that Guede committed the murder alone is not sustainable.

The criminal act occurred after the consumption of drugs. A light drug is enough to diminish one’s inhibitions.

Knox does not share the same sensuality as Meredith. Knox takes sex to the extreme.

Knox and Sollecito needed to consume drugs.

The murder was committed by more than one person because so many wounds were inflicted against Meredith in the seconds that the assault lasted.

Knox, Sollecito, and Guede are persons of strong criminal capacity when their inhibitions are dropped, even if they don’t seem so.

They didn’t comprehend what brought them to commit such a horrible act such that they removed it from their minds and convinced themselves that they didn’t commit it."

http://www.amandaknox.com/2014/01/08/kercher-knox-closing-arguments/

 

[Strozzi]

Can't really tell but I can hear some kids walking on the snow in that park about 3 blocks from here. Sounds pretty slushy.

Rose, Nara just called. She can hear the kids, too. She said she is going to make a cup of tea and if the kids don't quiet down she is threatening to call the cops in eight months.

 

[Wattson]

In
'moments before I said Patrick's name somebody was showing me the message that I was sent on the phone'.

That's what she says.

 

[Planigale]

It is true that Rudy was convicted under art. 576 but I think the sexual assault was an aggravating circumstance integrated into the murder charge and as such Rudy was given a sentence of 30 years by Micheli. There are articles given with paragraphs explaining the verdict at the end of Micheli (which is a bit above my ability to understand).

I had always thought from reading the various trial reports that Rudy was considered the main instigator of the sexual assault with Amanda and Raffaele as accomplices, however, my interpretation could be wrong.

Yes all three seem to have been charged with homicide with sexual assault as an aggravating factor (originally this was a capital offence, subsequently becoming a life sentence, i.e. 30 years). This is appropriate from the prosecution POV as this was a joint enterprise and all three could be considered participants regardless as to exactly what they did. However only AK and RS were charged with additional offences in addition to aggravated homicide. Including sexual assault, theft, transporting a weapon, and faking the break in. It still seems extraordinary given that the only evidence related to first two incriminates RG that he was not charged and AK and RS were.

 

[Grinder]

Can't really tell but I can hear some kids walking on the snow in that park about 3 blocks from here. Sounds pretty slushy.

Rose, Nara just called. She can hear the kids, too. She said she is going to make a cup of tea and if he kids don't quiet down she will call the cops in eight months.

I think you are both liars because no one could possibly hear those things over the din of the dogs barking in the valley.

 

[Poppy1016]

What the Kercher family have done?

There are people who may have the same opinion of Raffaele and Amanda’s publications, does that mean they shouldn’t have published; of course not.



Ok given your position on the case I do not find your post particularly surprising, it would be bizarre if you or anyone else approved of Maresca. The Kercher family continue to rely on what their legal representatives in Italy advise that appears to be the relationship again no different than Raffaele or Amanda.

Italian law allows civil and criminal proceedings to run concurrently, you know this.



The “dignified silence” is a media description, they have certainly been less vocal than I would have been, so I admire their restraint.

Did the Kercher family not pay any attention at this so- called retrial? AK and RS were declared not guilty in their appeals trial. The Supreme court of buffoons ask for two items of evidence to be revisited. The result of these two items reviewed was favorable to the defense. How can they possibly agree with a guilty verdict?
Not only a guilty verdict, but an increase in sentence. Are they totally blind to what has occurred here , or am I missing something?

 

[Grinder]

Knox does not share the same sensuality as Meredith. Knox takes sex to the extreme.

Coulsdon et al.,

If in fact the Kerchers' lawyers made the above statement, what response is allowed by those defending Amanda? Are they allowed to discuss what Barbie wrote concerning Meredith's sexual behavior and grooming?

From what I have read, Amanda didn't take sex to any extreme. Worst case is that she had more partners than Meredith, at least that's what we've been led to believe.

So what's permissible?

 

[Welshman]

The clues were right there in front of the police yet they refused to look. So many of the PGP talk about how little was taken. That's because burglary was a secondary motive.

Rudy clearly wasn't an ordinary burglar and fell into that dangerous subgroup. The clues are in all the burglaries that Rudy probably committed that we know. The simple fact that Rudy was "surprised" during two of them. Christian Tremantano and the nursery in Milan. I believe that there his neighbor which he also committed arson showed evidence of the burglar eating from the kitchen as well.

Rudy has all the signs of being a budding dangerous sexual predator.

Although Rudy is a dangerous sexual predator you will never hear Machiavelli describe Rudy as a narrcasist or psychopath.

 

[Samson]

Did the Kercher family not pay any attention at this so- called retrial? AK and RS were declared not guilty in their appeals trial. The Supreme court of buffoons ask for two items of evidence to be revisited. The result of these two items reviewed was favorable to the defense. How can they possibly agree with a guilty verdict?
Not only a guilty verdict, but an increase in sentence. Are they totally blind to what has occurred here , or am I missing something?

They would become clear sighted if their daughter was Amanda Knox

 

[Antony]

I can't believe that we have another story headlined that Meredith has been forgotten.

That's my reaction as well.

Google "Meredith forgotten" and a BBC story from 2011 comes up as the first hit. There are a thousand hits with that specific search.

Meredith may be history's least forgotten common person that was murdered.

Not only that, but there is no reason at all why she should be remembered by anyone other than those closest to her. Practically none of us discussing this case knew who she was or anything about her until after she was dead. We have no writings of hers, musical recordings or sporting videos. We have nothing to remember her for, other than that her tragic murder has led to a tragic miscarriage of justice.

Let those close to her remember her, and let them have all my support and sympathy in their private grief. But keep her out of the questions of guilt or innocence.

 

[Diocletus]

Per Lyle:

“Whilst we pressed for the last conviction, it wasn’t a case of celebrating when the conviction came through.”

"There were three young people involved who were having their lives taken away as well… but we won’t be talking forgiveness for a while."

"It is difficult to be thrust in the worldwide limelight because of the death of Meredith. We’ve tried to keep dignified silence, but it’s hard for our legal team to battle against a PR machine, so as much as we want to keep quiet, it’s important to make sure the message is getting out and Meredith’s memory is maintained."

Summary:
1) We helped get her convicted
2) In addition to getting her convicted, our legal team fights against a “PR machine.” Andi Vogt told us so.
3) We want vengeance! An eye for an eye!
4) We are very dignified . . . well, with the exception of nos. 1, 2, and 3, above.
5) And we are silent . . . well, with the exception of nos. 1, 2, 3, above. And dad’s book.

 

[Bill Williams]

Knox, Sollecito, and Guede are persons of strong criminal capacity when their inhibitions are dropped, even if they don’t seem so.

They didn’t comprehend what brought them to commit such a horrible act such that they removed it from their minds and convinced themselves that they didn’t commit it."

http://www.amandaknox.com/2014/01/08/kercher-knox-closing-arguments/

In other words, even if they are convinced of their own innocence, and if they protest their innocence - this conviction and protestation is further proof of their guilt.

Welcome to Italy.

 

[anglolawyer]

It sounds that way to me as well.

Charlie perhaps you could ask Amanda if she was shown Patrick's incoming message or not.

If it was the case that she was shown that message it raises the question why the defense team never made an issue of it.

An incoming message that said you don't have to come in still could been interpreted as mafia style, code or speak by the police.

I find the idea the police would erase the incoming on purpose to be unlikel, but the tape makes it sound like she saw it.

ETA - Anglo without sending me to Groundreport can you explain why the police would erase the incoming message? When would they have erased it?

Repeating, I think that they would have just said that the message from Patrick was in mafia style and meant the caper was on for that night. If they erased the message then I think it was the old truth about the PLE - incompetence.

They erased it because it did not fit their theory. It got erased physically from her phone and, well, literally from the 5.45 document. You need to track that down and compare it to the 1.45 version. You will see the 1.45 job incongruously states what Patrick's message really said.

Now, the reason you think it unlikely is that you don't understand these thugs pretending to be cops. They plucked Raf's kitchen knife, beat up Patrick, threatened people, destroyed stuff. When crossed they scratch your car etc. They are criminals (or, more simply, 'liars' as Amanda describes them) so you should not be surprised when they do criminal things. You are like Thoughtful who, when presented with clear evidence of skulduggery in the lab, just shrugs and says she highly doubts that anyone would behave like that. It's people like you and her that let people like them get away with it.

You ask why her team made nothing off it. I can only guess. Here are three theories:

1. They didn't think of it (after all, she didn't)
2. Their strategy throughout was to avoid at all costs any imputation of impropriety
3. It ceased to be relevant to any live issue once Guede replaced Lumumba (this also applies to De Felice's famed remark, a point I don't think you get)

I am alone in having an osmotic theory of the whole thing because I see the universe in a drop of water. That is the real importance of the lamp, the deleted text and several other key things like the bleach receipts to pluck one at random.

What I am telling you, Grinder, is that you have followed this case from the beginning, for more than 6 years, without even beginning to comprehend it.