Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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You could hardly blame them. Sad.

Should add also that one has the death penalty hanging over his head

Edit: Speaking about T-Shirts, one of the West Memphis Three had a T-Shirt on during his sentencing
 
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Should add also that one has the death penalty hanging over his head

Edit: Speaking about T-Shirts, one of the West Memphis Three had a T-Shirt on during his sentencing

Some of these wrongful convictions are amazingly sad. The description I heard that someone coined about the Knox case fits many of them. "the railroad job from hell. Because that is exactly what it is. The system so often just runs over and through the average citizen.
 
It is almost always the case where the relatives and friends of a victim will always blame those convicted even if later exonerated. That is why it is best if families are not part of the prosecution. The government is suppose to be dispassionate.
This may be so, but in New Zealand, where we appear to have many controversial cases, the families go to the ends of the earth to find the whole story, the truth. They have absolutely no potential access to the wealth of the supposed perpetrators. I am forced to the conclusion that the family in this case have decided to allow the process to deliver them whatever drops out, and wilfully refuse to do their own research.
On the controversial comment, I find no offence. I regarded it as pithy and relevant under the disgraceful circumstances prevailing. If it suits the victim's family to exhort that Amanda be immediately imprisoned pending finalisation of this process, and to be silent on Guede's pending release, despite the fact that he is factually either a technical rapist or a man that allowed their family member he had consensual sex with to die in a pool of blood before going dancing, then I support anyone who has spent countless hours seeking the truth, a truth that doesn't suit her family, to make an ironic comment. I have a deep loathing for all those encouraging this prosecution, and I can not believe the pussyfooting around this lynch mob of a family.
My perspective from afar.
 
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The only way I see getting a real believable story out if Rudy is to try the Mr Big approach... I live in Nova Scotia Canada and its broken 3 murder cases I can think... I'm actually amazed it works as well as it does. But that would take a law enforcement that actually wants to solve the problem.

I don't think it's a valid technique unless it produces information that can be corroborated, like where a body or murder weapon is hidden.

The basic idea is to make someone believe they will earn respect and credibility within a criminal organization by telling the tale of their criminal deeds. It can easily be used to trick someone into telling whatever story "Mr. Big" wants to hear, even if it is completely false.

ETA: We don't need Guede's story in any case. The crime scene tells the story. It's just not the story the authorities want told, so they pretend what happened is some kind of mystery.
 
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I don't think it's a valid technique unless it produces information that can be corroborated, like where a body or murder weapon is hidden.

The basic idea is to make someone believe they will earn respect and credibility within a criminal organization by telling the tale of their criminal deeds. It can easily be used to trick someone into telling whatever story "Mr. Big" wants to hear, even if it is completely false.

ETA: We don't need Guede's story in any case. The crime scene tells the story. It's just not the story the authorities want told, so they pretend what happened is some kind of mystery.

Rafay and Burns???

What bothers me about the Kercher murder case is there is no mystery. And the fact that people allude to one annoys the hell out of me.
 
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Anyone that is really interested in this case we discuss should really, really watch this courtroom video of Amanda Knox at the original Massei trial:

http://www.youreporter.it/video_La_deposizione_completa_di_Amanda_Knox_1

I've heard it said from Machiavelli and others that AK is a liar. Hmmm.

I find it odd that this murdering liar is sooo forthcoming about what she knows!
It's horribly tragic that she was even wrongfully convicted!
Look and listen folks! She has nothing to hide!

I think that it was smart for her to testify, no matter what she wore to court,
though that All You Need is Love t-shirt, at her own murder trial,
was inappropriate, in my humble surfer opinion!

I look forward to some of your opinions after you watch or re-watch that video clip...
Is Amanda Knox guilty?
RW
Thanks RWBVWL I watched it, lovely girl, doesn't know how to lie. While it is supposedly neutral to testify or not, I would much prefer to testify as innocenti.
 
The other 'mistake' which I think was probably deliberate and could be regarded as conspiratorial is the HIV positive test result. If this was a laboratory false positive there should be a laboratory report available showing this. I think this was a deliberate lie and the result was negative.

I definitely believe this was deliberate - false positives are rare, especially with modern tests. If there is a false positive, you will do a repeat test and a confirmatory test on the same sample - there is no need to inform the patient, unless there was something wrong with the sample and you need to get more blood. If this was a doctor, his behaviour was totally unethical and would go against all standards of care we would have in the UK

I've worked at a few sexual health clinics in UK prisons - and extreme sensitivity is used when testing for HIV, as you're often working with extremely vulnerable people, it's awful that this was done to Amanda
 
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I definitely believe this was deliberate - false positives are rare, especially with modern tests. If there is a false positive, you will do a repeat test and a confirmatory test on the same sample - there is no need to inform the patient, unless there was something wrong with the sample and you need to get more blood. If this was a doctor, his behaviour was totally unethical and would go against all standards of care we would have in the UK

I've worked at a few sexual health clinics in UK prisons - and extreme sensitivity is used when testing for HIV, as you're often working with extremely vulnerable people, it's awful that this was done to Amanda

Slut shaming?
 
I definitely believe this was deliberate - false positives are rare, especially with modern tests. If there is a false positive, you will do a repeat test and a confirmatory test on the same sample - there is no need to inform the patient, unless there was something wrong with the sample and you need to get more blood. If this was a doctor, his behaviour was totally unethical and would go against all standards of care we would have in the UK


Well it's perhaps slightly more complicated that that. It comes down to questions of sensitivity and specificity (as it does with Luminol and TMB....)

HIV tests are almost always a two-part test. The first test is almost always the ELISA test. This test is relatively cheap to administer, and gives quick results. And it has two important characteristics: high sensitivity and low specificity. This essentially means that if the person being tested does have HIV, this test will almost always come back positive (high sensitivity), but if the test comes back positive, it may be for reasons other than that the person being tested has HIV (low specificity).

In other words, a negative ELISA test means that the patient almost certainly is not HIV+. Therefore, if the ELISA test comes up negative, the person is told that they do not have HIV, and no further testing is necessary (apart from perhaps another test later in time, to allow for incubation periods). However, if the ELISA test comes back positive, then this means that the person might be HIV+.

It's at this point (positive ELISA test) that two things happen: firstly, the patient is usually told that they might be HIV+, but that there is a significant chance that the ELISA test is giving a false positive; and secondly, the second test - the Western Blot test - is performed. This test is the perfect complement to ELISA, as it has low sensitivity and high specificity (the opposite to ELISA).

What this means in practice is that if the person tests positive with ELISA and negative with Western Blot, they almost certainly are not HIV+. But if the person tests positive with both ELISA and Western Blot, then they almost certainly are HIV+. (And of course if they test negative with ELISA, they are almost certainly not HIV+, and no Western Blot test is performed).

So what does this all mean in relation to Knox? It means that she had the ELISA test performed on her blood first. Personally, I suspect that she did come back positive with ELISA (it's very possible that the fact that she carried herpes simplex (via a cold sore) might have produced a false positive). But Knox was in a low-risk group for HIV, and it's the low-risk groups that have the highest proportion of false positives.

Therefore, what Knox should have been told - if indeed the ELISA test came back positive, was that she'd tested positive with the first test but that there was a good possibility that it was a false positive, and that only the second test would truly tell whether she was indeed HIV+. In other words, she most definitely should not have been frightened or told in any way that she was HIV+.

If Knox's account is to be believed (and, given her known actions (diary entries etc), I'd say there's little reason to disbelieve her here), then it appears that the authorities might have acted way outside accepted protocols - and WHO guidelines - in how they dealt with a positive ELISA test in a low-risk-group individual. It appears that they put the fear of God into Knox by implying that she really was most likely HIV+, and it also appears that they may have used the situation as a device for getting Knox to divulge her sexual history. Personally (again), I wonder whether they hoped Knox was going to list Guede in her sexual partners.....?
 
I agree with all you've said LondonJohn - but you can do the Western Blot on the same sample of blood. If the ELISA is positive, the Western Blot is automatically done, which means that you don't have to worry large numbers of patients unnecessarily with a possible positive result.
 
The tougher the environment, the more one can't afford to mess around. That's why I think the sweatshirt incident was worth avoiding. Did wearing a Beatle's shirt sway the verdict? Probably not. But don't make a bad situation worse.

How will the truth find its way out? I don't know. Worst case, it doesn't for a long, long time. I suspect someday we'll get more pieces of the story from somewhere... the lawyers, a lab technician, someone present at the interrogation. I don't think Guede could tell the truth if he wanted to.

Let me correct my previous post. I am very tired and was thinking about several posts at once.

The truth of the crime is known. When I referred to the truth coming out I meant the truth of why the trials went the way they did. What the lawyers and judges were really thinking.

Much was revealed about backstage machinations at the OJ Simpson trial, for example, and I think the same will occur in this case -- EVENTUALLY. If we're lucky, we may also get an insider's view of the interrogation and data analysis.

I shouldn't have mentioned Guede at all. I had Coulson's prediction of Guede's future in the back of my mind. I agree with his view that some news outlet will pay a million bucks for his story. I know he won't speak a word of truth.
 
Yep exactly.

Plus Guede was also not charged with theft even with his DNA found on the purse of poor Miss Kercher. Meanwhile AK and RS were charged with theft even though nothing AT ALL is in evidence that they were involved, let alone anything meriting an additional charge of stealing. Italian logic that Yummi/Mach has ridiculously tried to wave away...cant steal from the dead, but somehow he never mentions how AK and RS could steal from the dead??? Whatever. Nutty fruitloops.

So Guede DNA inside MK vagina = no sexual assault
Guede DNA on purse zipper = no theft.

Mignini did not charge Rudy with sexual assault or theft from Meredith even though there was evidence of it because he was going easy on Rudy. Mignini could have charged and convicted Rudy of additional crimes, but went essy on Rudy because Mignini wanted to portray Rudy as follower rather than leader in order to get Amanda and that other guy, the incidental guy, what's his name. Mignini cut a deal with Rudy. Rudy may ar may not have known that, but Rudy's attorney certainly understood.
 
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I agree with all you've said LondonJohn - but you can do the Western Blot on the same sample of blood. If the ELISA is positive, the Western Blot is automatically done, which means that you don't have to worry large numbers of patients unnecessarily with a possible positive result.


You work in this field - is that correct?

I believe the Western Blot test takes quite some time since it requires the development of cultures - whereas the ELISA test is virtually instantaneous.

I had therefore thought that the recommended guidelines upon obtaining a positive ELISA test was to inform the patient of this (with the heavy caveat - particularly if the individual is from a low-risk group - that there's a significant probability that it's a false positive for HIV), while simultaneously ordering up the Western Blot test.

Or am I wrong (or have the guidelines changed)? Is it now standard practice not to inform the patient of a positive ELISA test, but instead to wait for the outcome of the Western Blot test (even though this would take several more days)?
 
Well it's perhaps slightly more complicated that that. It comes down to questions of sensitivity and specificity (as it does with Luminol and TMB....)

HIV tests are almost always a two-part test. The first test is almost always the ELISA test. This test is relatively cheap to administer, and gives quick results. And it has two important characteristics: high sensitivity and low specificity. This essentially means that if the person being tested does have HIV, this test will almost always come back positive (high sensitivity), but if the test comes back positive, it may be for reasons other than that the person being tested has HIV (low specificity).

In other words, a negative ELISA test means that the patient almost certainly is not HIV+. Therefore, if the ELISA test comes up negative, the person is told that they do not have HIV, and no further testing is necessary (apart from perhaps another test later in time, to allow for incubation periods). However, if the ELISA test comes back positive, then this means that the person might be HIV+.

It's at this point (positive ELISA test) that two things happen: firstly, the patient is usually told that they might be HIV+, but that there is a significant chance that the ELISA test is giving a false positive; and secondly, the second test - the Western Blot test - is performed. This test is the perfect complement to ELISA, as it has low sensitivity and high specificity (the opposite to ELISA).

What this means in practice is that if the person tests positive with ELISA and negative with Western Blot, they almost certainly are not HIV+. But if the person tests positive with both ELISA and Western Blot, then they almost certainly are HIV+. (And of course if they test negative with ELISA, they are almost certainly not HIV+, and no Western Blot test is performed).

So what does this all mean in relation to Knox? It means that she had the ELISA test performed on her blood first. Personally, I suspect that she did come back positive with ELISA (it's very possible that the fact that she carried herpes simplex (via a cold sore) might have produced a false positive). But Knox was in a low-risk group for HIV, and it's the low-risk groups that have the highest proportion of false positives.

Therefore, what Knox should have been told - if indeed the ELISA test came back positive, was that she'd tested positive with the first test but that there was a good possibility that it was a false positive, and that only the second test would truly tell whether she was indeed HIV+. In other words, she most definitely should not have been frightened or told in any way that she was HIV+.

If Knox's account is to be believed (and, given her known actions (diary entries etc), I'd say there's little reason to disbelieve her here), then it appears that the authorities might have acted way outside accepted protocols - and WHO guidelines - in how they dealt with a positive ELISA test in a low-risk-group individual. It appears that they put the fear of God into Knox by implying that she really was most likely HIV+, and it also appears that they may have used the situation as a device for getting Knox to divulge her sexual history. Personally (again), I wonder whether they hoped Knox was going to list Guede in her sexual partners.....?

As has been said the confirmatory test(s) is run on the first sample, so the chance of a false positive is very low. The biggest source of errors is a mix up in the sample (mislabelling) so this is the main reason for a duplicate test.

What was a western blot Daddy? Is it something they did last century?

Modern labs will do an antibody test usually a generic HIV and a HIV 1 specific and an antigen test (i.e. three tests on the first sample); the second confirmatory sample would include samples for viral load (PCR), resistance testing etc, which would be run, if sample is confirmed positive.
 
If Knox's account is to be believed (and, given her known actions (diary entries etc), I'd say there's little reason to disbelieve her here), then it appears that the authorities might have acted way outside accepted protocols - and WHO guidelines - in how they dealt with a positive ELISA test in a low-risk-group individual. It appears that they put the fear of God into Knox by implying that she really was most likely HIV+, and it also appears that they may have used the situation as a device for getting Knox to divulge her sexual history. Personally (again), I wonder whether they hoped Knox was going to list Guede in her sexual partners.....?

If that is the case, that is a low tactic. . .Almost wonder if there is anything they will not do
 
As has been said the confirmatory test(s) is run on the first sample, so the chance of a false positive is very low. The biggest source of errors is a mix up in the sample (mislabelling) so this is the main reason for a duplicate test.

What was a western blot Daddy? Is it something they did last century?

Modern labs will do an antibody test usually a generic HIV and a HIV 1 specific and an antigen test (i.e. three tests on the first sample); the second confirmatory sample would include samples for viral load (PCR), resistance testing etc, which would be run, if sample is confirmed positive.


I realise that more sophisticated tests are available in 2014 - but wasn't the ELISA/Western Blot test the standard two-part procedure in 2007?
 
Hard to know for other countries. Western blot is still an option to confirm but I think even then they would confirm with highly specific antibody and immunoblot test. Essentially the immunoblot tests are similar to western blots but are standardised commercial tests as opposed to the original western blots that were quite variable, and led to some of the arguments that HIV denialists used to make (maybe still do?), but in strict sense are not western blots. So although the methodology dates right back to 1980s I accept that it is still the reference standard and I am being a bit cheeky.
 
Mignini did not charge Rudy with sexual assault or theft from Meredith even though there was evidence of it because he was going easy on Rudy. Mignini could have charged and convicted Rudy of additional crimes, but went essy on Rudy because Mignini wanted to portray Rudy as follower rather than leader in order to get Amanda and that other guy, the incidental guy, what's his name. Mignini cut a deal with Rudy. Rudy may ar may not have known that, but Rudy's attorney certainly understood.

I thought Rudy was charged and convicted of sexual assault during the Micheli trial and the convictions were upheld on appeal. I think there is even mention of this in the Massei Motivations, though he was not tried by that court.
 
A new virus in the wild

FWIW RG was not charged or convicted of sexual assault of MK despite evidence of sexual contact (I do not know if the family were agreeable to this); AK and RS were charged with sexual assault (although there is zero evidence of sexual contact) the family seem agreeable to this. Whilst I cannot reference family views this is clearly the prosecution view and the family seem supportive of the prosecution approach in general.


Nothing – as it happens.

But in the vast panoply of bizarre arguments posted in Cartwheel world this appears to be new & thus provokes my interest.

So (in JREF parlance)

Evidences ?
 
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