How much time do we really have?

[Craig B]

I'm saying that, for the claim that the moon was split in two, then stuck back together in the 600s, there should be evidence. It would be highly implausible that such a thing could happen without many people over a hemisphere seeing and recording such a spectacular event and without the event leaving physical scars.

Very true.

Five monks from Canterbury reported to the abbey's chronicler, Gervase, that shortly after sunset on June 18, 1178 ... they saw "the upper horn [of the moon] split in two." Furthermore, Gervase writes, "From the midpoint of the division a flaming torch sprang up, spewing out, over a considerable distance, fire, hot coals and sparks ... In 1976 the geologist Jack B. Hartung proposed that this described the formation of the crater Giordano Bruno ... it can be reasonably hypothesised that Giordano Bruno was formed during the span of human history, perhaps in June 1178. However, the question of the crater's age is not that simple. The impact creating the 22-km-wide crater would have kicked up enough debris to trigger a week-long, blizzard-like meteor storm on Earth – yet no accounts of such a noteworthy storm of unprecedented intensity are found in any known historical records ... This discrepancy is a major objection to the theory that Giordano Bruno was formed at that time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gervase_of_Canterbury
So an impact producing a minor crater within recorded history is ruled out because there is no record of it. It would definitely have been noticed, this creation of a 22 km wide crater. Imagine if the moon had been split in half by impacts. Would that have been noticed? Not for long, because the resulting debris impacts on the earth would have sterilised the entire surface of our planet! But there is no record of such an event. Needless to say.

 

[Donn]

I'm saying that, for the claim that the moon was split in two, then stuck back together in the 600s, there should be evidence. It would be highly implausible that such a thing could happen without many people over a hemisphere seeing and recording such a spectacular event and without the event leaving physical scars. If you say it could have happened without leaving physical evidence, then you are admitting that the claim cannot be tested. As such, it remains nothing more than an unverified - and unverifiable - extraordinary claim, nothing more.

Your perfectly reasonable words here are ineffective on believers. They can happily return that their god can do all that and clean it up so it leaves no traces. The rubber duck effect.

An example is the "miracle" of the sun, in Portugal, where it supposedly whizzed-about the sky. There were "witnesses" but few seem to care that this would have ended our entire planet, let alone the solar system.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun
http://www.internationalskeptics.co.../The.Big.Bang.Theory.S07E12.HDTV.x264-LOL.mp4

 

[catsmate]

.
As the moon hasn't split, yes, that event is still to come.
Other than some bizarre writings in a chronicle of fantasy, the moon's splitting has been unobserved.
If it ever occurs... and it's not likely ever, it will be observed and commented on by cultures around the world.. if it happens while people are still here.
The religious mind can assume many impossibilities before, during and long after breakfast.
This hadith is just another in the long line of fantasies.

The splitting of the Moon is one of the signals of the approaching End Times; when the Mi-Go containment system fails and the Great Old One Domaag T'eel is released from its prison in the hollow Moon.

Either that or when Dahak sheds his accumulated detritus and becomes operational once again.

It rather depends on who you believe, doesn't it.

 

[I Ratant]

The splitting of the Moon is one of the signals of the approaching End Times; when the Mi-Go containment system fails and the Great Old One Domaag T'eel is released from its prison in the hollow Moon.

Either that or when Dahak sheds his accumulated detritus and becomes operational once again.

It rather depends on who you believe, doesn't it.

.
Moon innards...it's warmish... dress accordingly.

 

[mikeb768]

I'm saying that, for the claim that the moon was split in two, then stuck back together in the 600s, there should be evidence. It would be highly implausible that such a thing could happen without many people over a hemisphere seeing and recording such a spectacular event and without the event leaving physical scars. If you say it could have happened without leaving physical evidence, then you are admitting that the claim cannot be tested. As such, it remains nothing more than an unverified - and unverifiable - extraordinary claim, nothing more.

Some people may not realize there are an large number of amount of things which have taken place throughout history that would fall into this category. If anyone has ever taken a history class they would know that even things which were well documented are still up for debate and History books are still being corrected and revised. I'm not talking about things of a miraculous nature, but normal everyday events, even those which have been widely reported on and recorded.

Here is a video where Sheikh Anwar al-Awlaki (who has since been assassinated), speculates on some of the reasons for why very few written records exist regarding the splitting of the Moon. Link


Another fantastic event which Muslims and knowledgeable Christians say took place was that of the "7 Sleepers", where a group of Christian youths who hid inside a cave outside the city of Ephesus around 250 AD, to escape a persecution of Christians being conducted during the reign of the Roman emperor Decius. The event takes place after the time of Jesus (as) and before the time of Muhammad (saw). And is not found in the Bible.

But how can events such as these be properly recorded for what they are (Divine Intervention), and not end up just being filed under Story/Legend? Even if people record what took place does that equal proof? What constitutes proof for such an event? A photo of seven men all sleeping in a cave, or a recording of one of them speaking in a strange and forgotten dialogue?

Seven Sleepers
Tafseer Surah Al Kahf - 7 Sleepers
[Qurah 18:7-26]

 

[dlorde]

.
Moon innards...it's warmish... dress accordingly.

NASA's Passive Seismic Experiment (4 seismometers deployed by the Apollo missions which made a continuous five year seismic record) would have detected any major structural flaws, and the structure they revealed would not exist if the moon had been significantly split within human history.

 

[catsmate]

Dup

 

[catsmate]

NASA's Passive Seismic Experiment (4 seismometers deployed by the Apollo missions which made a continuous five year seismic record) would have detected any major structural flaws, and the structure they revealed would not exist if the moon had been significantly split within human history.

Bah! Pathetic human technology is no match for the fungus creatures from the no-longer-a-planet Pluto.

 

[TimCallahan]

Some people may not realize there are an large number of amount of things which have taken place throughout history that would fall into this category. If anyone has ever taken a history class they would know that even things which were well documented are still up for debate and History books are still being corrected and revised. I'm not talking about things of a miraculous nature, but normal everyday events, even those which have been widely reported on and recorded.

Here is a video where Sheikh Anwar al-Awlaki (who has since been assassinated), speculates on some of the reasons for why very few written records exist regarding the splitting of the Moon. Link

Even granting that the moon might have set in certain pats of the hemisphere facing away from the sun at the time and that in other areas there were overcast skies, or that the population was illiterate in a given area, as the video argues, the moon being split in two would have been observed in various parts of both the Eastern Roman and Sassanid Persian Empires. It's highly improbable, for example, the something observed in the heavens over Mecca would not have been observed in Mesopotamia, Syria, the Levant and Egypt. Yet, no astronomer or astrologer in these literate and civilized parts records the event.

The argument that people wouldn't have been looking up at the nighttime sky is ludicrous if one considers that, for the moon-splitting to be apparent the moon would have to be full or nearly so. Moonlight on such nights was an important source of illumination in societies lacking electric light. Again, for such an event to take place without being noted by stargazers somewhere in the hemisphere is highly implausible.

Another fantastic event which Muslims and knowledgeable Christians say took place was that of the "7 Sleepers", where a group of Christian youths who hid inside a cave outside the city of Ephesus around 250 AD, to escape a persecution of Christians being conducted during the reign of the Roman emperor Decius. The event takes place after the time of Jesus (as) and before the time of Muhammad (saw). And is not found in the Bible.

But how can events such as these be properly recorded for what they are (Divine Intervention), and not end up just being filed under Story/Legend? Even if people record what took place does that equal proof? What constitutes proof for such an event? A photo of seven men all sleeping in a cave, or a recording of one of them speaking in a strange and forgotten dialogue?

Seven Sleepers
Tafseer Surah Al Kahf - 7 Sleepers
[Qurah 18:7-26]

The story of the seven sleepers of Ephesus is a fairly late Christian legend written about a century before Muhammad's time. Muhammad rather uncritically incorporated it into the Qur'an, just as he did material from Basilides and material from the late infancy gospels about Jesus molding birds out of clay and making them come to life. There is, of course, no way to verify such alleged miracles. However, the moon being split in two is a physical act that should have been widely observed and should have also left evidence on the surface of the moon.

ETA: Since you included a video by Sheikh Anwar al-Awlaki, does this mean you're okay with other ideas he, as a member of Al Qeada, had?

 

[mikeb768]

NASA's Passive Seismic Experiment (4 seismometers deployed by the Apollo missions which made a continuous five year seismic record) would have detected any major structural flaws, and the structure they revealed would not exist if the moon had been significantly split within human history.

So the seismometers which Apollo astronauts placed on the moon between 1969 and 1972 should have been able to detect seismic activity which took place in the 7th century? Right...

NASA Science - Moonquakes

And how do you define a "major structural flaw"?

 

[TimCallahan]

. . . (snip) . . . And how do you define a "major structural flaw"?

How about a scar girdling the moon, a fault that extends clear through it?

 

[I Ratant]

The depth probing would find any anomaly in the layers where any split would have been.
The signal return would be different where a split in the layers interrupted the flow of the signal.

 

[mikeb768]

How about a scar girdling the moon, a fault that extends clear through it?

So we are back to this again? Post

You are assuming that the surface of the moon today would be identical to that of the moon in the year 629. Why would you continue assume this? Even the guy from NASA seems to agree that the visible scarps cut across what are believed to be "young" caters. Link

Or the fact that large graben (Graben is German for ditch or trench) exist, which leads scientist to believe that while some parts of the moon seem to have recently shrunk other portions seem to have expanded. Almost like if you were to pull apart two large objects and then smash them back together again. Link

Like I said maybe we will one day have proof of this event? God knows best. Although I'm seriously wondering, are people truly waiting for things such as this to be confirmed by organizations such as NASA before deciding to get right with God? For example lets say you die 2039, and in 2040 a NASA study is released which states that the moon has a large crack which runs through it and reaches to both ends?

Such people would no doubt say, "If only God had proved to me this sign earlier".

 

[abaddon]

So we are back to this again? Post

Yup, it's still wrong.

You are assuming that the surface of the moon today would be identical to that of the moon in the year 629. Why would you continue assume this? Even the guy from NASA seems to agree that the visible scarps cut across what are believed to be "young" caters. Link

No that's an apologist islamic bait and switch.

Or the fact that large graben (Graben is German for ditch or trench) exist, which leads scientist to believe that while some parts of the moon seem to have recently shrunk other portions seem to have expanded.

So far so good.

Almost like if you were to pull apart two large objects and then smash them back together again. Link

And now you are making things up not contained in the video.

Like I said maybe we will one day have proof of this event?

Good to see you acknowledge that you have absolutely no evidence of such an event.

God knows best. Although I'm seriously wondering, are people truly waiting for things such as this to be confirmed by organizations such as NASA before deciding to get right with God? For example lets say you die 2039, and in 2040 a NASA study is released which states that the moon has a large crack which runs through it and reaches to both ends?

Such people would no doubt say, "If only God had proved to me this sign earlier".

So far, your god has provided no evidence of any sort. Are you proposing that your faith is based on evidence that your god may or may not provide at some unspecified time in the future yet has so far declined to do so?

 

[TimCallahan]

So we are back to this again? Post

You are assuming that the surface of the moon today would be identical to that of the moon in the year 629. Why would you continue assume this? Even the guy from NASA seems to agree that the visible scarps cut across what are believed to be "young" caters. Link

Even were the surface evidences obscured, NASA's seismic analysis would have detected a fault that went clear through the moon. This would not have been altered by meteor strikes, etc. on the lunar surface since 629.

Or the fact that large graben (Graben is German for ditch or trench) exist, which leads scientist to believe that while some parts of the moon seem to have recently shrunk other portions seem to have expanded. Almost like if you were to pull apart two large objects and then smash them back together again. Link

Except that, according to your link, this is happening even now. Again, seismic analysis should have found a fault going clear through the moon.

Like I said maybe we will one day have proof of this event? God knows best. Although I'm seriously wondering, are people truly waiting for things such as this to be confirmed by organizations such as NASA before deciding to get right with God? For example lets say you die 2039, and in 2040 a NASA study is released which states that the moon has a large crack which runs through it and reaches to both ends?

Such people would no doubt say, "If only God had proved to me this sign earlier".

Concerning the hilited area, what would you say "getting right with God" entails? Is it leading an ethical life? Or does it mean taking the right loyalty oath? Many Christian evangelicals assert that all who do not confess Jesus Christ to be their savior will be damned for eternity. Depending on what verse one reads in the Qur'an, all People of the Book will be saved. Other verses seem to indicate it will only be Muslims.

I once asked a young evangelical Christian woman if that meant that an atheist who has led and ethical life would be damned, while a child murderer who believed in Jesus would be saved. She affirmed that the child murderer would be saved, while the ethical atheist would be damned. Is that your view?

 

[I Ratant]

...

Such people would no doubt say, "If only God had proved to me this sign earlier".

.
And why is the Word so murky and unbelievable?
Why are there so many variations and distinctions of the Word, all of them traceable to the cultural biases of the societies that take these different 'explanations' as gospel?
Is god such a sadist that he delights in the punishment of those that don't believe any of these variations, and those that have and never will exposed to the ideas in the first place?
There's many of those than there are of all of the believers in the Abrahamic versions of eternity.
.
And there's no 'recognition' of one's "error" in belief after death.
Everything stops at death.
There's nothing more.

 

[mikeb768]

Even were the surface evidences obscured, NASA's seismic analysis would have detected a fault that went clear through the moon. This would not have been altered by meteor strikes, etc. on the lunar surface since 629.

"NASA's seismic analysis would have detected a fault that went clear through the moon", oh really? And you know this how?

 

[mikeb768]

.
And why is the Word so murky and unbelievable?
Why are there so many variations and distinctions of the Word, all of them traceable to the cultural biases of the societies that take these different 'explanations' as gospel?
Is god such a sadist that he delights in the punishment of those that don't believe any of these variations, and those that have and never will exposed to the ideas in the first place?
There's many of those than there are of all of the believers in the Abrahamic versions of eternity.
.
And there's no 'recognition' of one's "error" in belief after death.
Everything stops at death.
There's nothing more.

You seem so certain, but it is really nothing more than faith. You have no way of knowing what awaits you after death, or do you?

 

[TimCallahan]

"NASA's seismic analysis would have detected a fault that went clear through the moon", oh really? And you know this how?

How about this or this? So, NASA can detect what the lunar core is like, but they can't find the fault line going clear through the moon?

BTW, had NASA detected such a fault, you would be trumpeting this evidence to the skies. Yet, when science doesn't back up your claim - a claim made about a physical object, the moon - you dismiss it.

 

[Pixel42]

I can't believe anyone is seriously discussing the claim that the moon was magically split in two and put back together again within the last couple of thousand years as if there was the remotest possibility it actually happened. It's an absolutely ludicrous claim. Anyone who can make themselves believe it is beyond help.