Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Dan O. said:
That snippet mentions the translators on the pro-guilt sites. Until after the Massei verdict, where there any other sites? From looking at the early online history, there were a few true crime sites following this case in real time. I believe it was the original PMF that spun off from one of these crime watching sites. Italians who know English and had taken an interest in this case would naturally migrate to that site being the only game in town.

This thread started as a result of the verdict. The primary innocence forum IIP spun off from here as a direct result of this thread being closed and placed on extended moderated status. A number of former PMF translators now contribute to the IIP (now IA) and independent translation efforts. The pro-guilt sites have lost their monopoly on translators.
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It was Haloscan that spun off this case as it was too contentious.

Before IIP there was the FOA site and Frank's blog, where you can find my posts as anonymous.

Novelli is an expert that backs the prosecution. He of the famous "contamination must be proven" quote that TM/HarryRag loves so much.

Let's not forget Laura Wray the receptionist at a fashion house that not only was PMF's DNA expert but was interviewed and quoted on the DNA bi none other than...drum-roll...Andrea Vogt.

But they do have experts: the bookkeeper is an expert on book deals and predicted Amanda would get a $50,000 deal on the upside, Kermit he of powerpoint skills, Jackie the traffic court lawyer (I went to law school for 3 years unlike that English guy) and Michael the possessor of the bleach receipt so don't knock them :rolleyes:
 
Dan O. said:
That snippet mentions the translators on the pro-guilt sites. Until after the Massei verdict, where there any other sites? From looking at the early online history, there were a few true crime sites following this case in real time. I believe it was the original PMF that spun off from one of these crime watching sites. Italians who know English and had taken an interest in this case would naturally migrate to that site being the only game in town.

This thread started as a result of the verdict. The primary innocence forum IIP spun off from here as a direct result of this thread being closed and placed on extended moderated status. A number of former PMF translators now contribute to the IIP (now IA) and independent translation efforts. The pro-guilt sites have lost their monopoly on translators.
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I was actually looking at some of the old links the other day. Three years ago IIP was not even on the list. Still a good resource, although some of them no longer work. Science Spheres and Knox Archives were two pretty good ones on the side of innocence.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6784493&postcount=1715
 
Grinder said:
It was Haloscan that spun off this case as it was too contentious.

Before IIP there was the FOA site and Frank's blog, where you can find my posts as anonymous.

Novelli is an expert that backs the prosecution. He of the famous "contamination must be proven" quote that TM/HarryRag loves so much.

Let's not forget Laura Wray the receptionist at a fashion house that not only was PMF's DNA expert but was interviewed and quoted on the DNA bi none other than...drum-roll...Andrea Vogt.

But they do have experts: the bookkeeper is an expert on book deals and predicted Amanda would get a $50,000 deal on the upside, Kermit he of powerpoint skills, Jackie the traffic court lawyer (I went to law school for 3 years unlike that English guy) and Michael the possessor of the bleach receipt so don't knock them :rolleyes:
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Possessing a receipt does not involve expertise. Strike that one. Agree all the rest.
 
fakeangl0lawyer said:
While the efforts of all translators are appreciated, the quality of all translations is not the same. The translations of Hellman-Z and Conti-Vechiotti are of excellent quality. Those of Massei (theirs) and the ISC (ours) not so much. I really wish there were more translations. Micheli would be good and all the hearing transcripts, if that's not asking too much Given especially the impenetrable jargon and gibberish posturing as legal reasoning, I take my hat off to all who have ventured into these activities without hope of reward.
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Kaosium said:
Matteini. A clean copy of the Matteini hearing where all this started, showing how wrong about everything the police and prosecution was when they arrested Amanda, Patrick and Raffaele.
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This is the essence of the whole thing for me.

I wish that guilters would attempt a timeline of the crime... at least attempt one. Because the case, as put forth before Matteini, is now non-existent. Not even Crini argued it. For sure the ISC will be receiving a motivations report fro Nencini which will describe a very different scenario on which we're supposed to see as "guilt beyond a reasonable doubt".

Can ANYONE list the points in Matteini which are still in play?

- Sollecito states that he does not remember if Knox stayed with him or went out that night. (This point has been cleared up ad naseum)

- The supposed conflict between Raff's dad's calls and his computer activity. Too bad the PLE destroyed Raff's computer!

- The timing of the 112 calls? Even Massei says that Raff called the Carabinieri before the Postals arrived.

- Raffaele said he likes knives.​

What else was in Matteini? Where are these points in the legal process now, a process hurdling towards conviction?
 
Bill Williams said:
This is the essence of the whole thing for me.

I wish that guilters would attempt a timeline of the crime... at least attempt one. Because the case, as put forth before Matteini, is now non-existent. Not even Crini argued it. For sure the ISC will be receiving a motivations report fro Nencini which will describe a very different scenario on which we're supposed to see as "guilt beyond a reasonable doubt".

Can ANYONE list the points in Matteini which are still in play?

- Sollecito states that he does not remember if Knox stayed with him or went out that night. (This point has been cleared up ad naseum)

- The supposed conflict between Raff's dad's calls and his computer activity. Too bad the PLE destroyed Raff's computer!

- The timing of the 112 calls? Even Massei says that Raff called the Carabinieri before the Postals arrived.

- Raffaele said he likes knives.​

What else was in Matteini? Where are these points in the legal process now, a process hurdling towards conviction?
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The shoe prints that were later shown to be Raffaele's.

The missing clothes that were later found on Amanda's bed (LOL).

Going by memory as I haven't looked at it in a while. Her logic is better than Massei's, just a lot of wrong facts and she presents a pretty convincing case against Patrick.
 
Bill Williams said:
This is the essence of the whole thing for me.

I wish that guilters would attempt a timeline of the crime... at least attempt one. Because the case, as put forth before Matteini, is now non-existent. Not even Crini argued it. For sure the ISC will be receiving a motivations report fro Nencini which will describe a very different scenario on which we're supposed to see as "guilt beyond a reasonable doubt".

Can ANYONE list the points in Matteini which are still in play?

- Sollecito states that he does not remember if Knox stayed with him or went out that night. (This point has been cleared up ad naseum)

- The supposed conflict between Raff's dad's calls and his computer activity. Too bad the PLE destroyed Raff's computer!

- The timing of the 112 calls? Even Massei says that Raff called the Carabinieri before the Postals arrived.

- Raffaele said he likes knives.​

What else was in Matteini? Where are these points in the legal process now, a process hurdling towards conviction?
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Well, there's the "confession," now on appeal to the ECHR as a human rights violation.

And Raf's shoes (now replaced with bra clasp)

Also, the SMS. Anybody know anything about that?
 
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Dan O. said:
Are you aware that there was a video camera (with sound) at the time in the room pointed at the area where Meredith was attacked and murdered. But we will never know if it was turned on at the time because the postal police destroyed the evidence when they fried the hard drives.
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Why would that stop the PGP camp from saying any video that showed Rudy being Rudy was filmed by Raffaele and Amanda?

d

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the city backpedaled because of the Amanda Knox murder case in Perugia, Italy

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Chris_Halkides said:
RoseMontague,

Thank you for this. The Italian system gives them the opportunity to assist in the prosecution (which is a terrible idea), but it does not give them an obligation to do so. If a substantial fraction of Perugians take part in the campaign you mentioned, then Seattle should cut ties with its sister city, if it has not done so already.
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Yeah, we (Seattle) pretty much already did that back in 2009:

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2013926319_parkname14m.html

Capitol Hill park has new name: Summit Slope Park
Capitol Hill's Perugia Park has a new name
By Susan Gilmore

"A Capitol Hill park that was to be named after Seattle's sister city Perugia, Italy — a name that was quickly withdrawn — now has a new name: Summit Slope Park.

"In 2009, the Seattle Parks Department announced that the park at the northeast corner of East John Street and Summit Avenue East would be named Perugia Park, but just a day later, the city backpedaled because of the Amanda Knox murder case in Perugia, Italy... "

d

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A healthy skepticism is my only qualification

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Desert Fox said:
I feel bad . . . I have no qualifications :o
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Me neither, except a healthy skepticism borne from the research and critical examination of my own strong beliefs and theories about UFOs, Bigfoot, Missing Persons and Serial Killers.

I've come to the conclusion that there is no real solid evidence that the first two exist, but something unusual is definitely going on out there in the woods and up in the sky and further research should be encouraged.

I believe some of my theories on the last two are more probable than improbable, and I still work on all four of them, on and off, all the time,

d

ETA that and a pretty short criminal history, and a better than average understanding of US law and forensics
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Dan O. said:
That snippet mentions the translators on the pro-guilt sites. Until after the Massei verdict, where there any other sites? From looking at the early online history, there were a few true crime sites following this case in real time. I believe it was the original PMF that spun off from one of these crime watching sites. Italians who know English and had taken an interest in this case would naturally migrate to that site being the only game in town.

This thread started as a result of the verdict. The primary innocence forum IIP spun off from here as a direct result of this thread being closed and placed on extended moderated status. A number of former PMF translators now contribute to the IIP (now IA) and independent translation efforts. The pro-guilt sites have lost their monopoly on translators.
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RoseMontague said:
I was actually looking at some of the old links the other day. Three years ago IIP was not even on the list. Still a good resource, although some of them no longer work. Science Spheres and Knox Archives were two pretty good ones on the side of innocence.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6784493&postcount=1715
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Rose, IIP is second on your list. IIP was being set up around the same time this thread started, and it opened in May 2010. It was the outcome of a network on Facebook, not this thread. Most of the core supporters of the Facebook network who also inhabit IIP are not on JREF.
 
Kaosium said:
Matteini. A clean copy of the Matteini hearing where all this started, showing how wrong about everything the police and prosecution was when they arrested Amanda, Patrick and Raffaele.
Click to expand...


I've had a transcription and google translation of Matteini on my wiki for almost 4 years.
 
One item I notice is psychiatry is part of the Italian prison system, something I think that is almost nonexistent in the US system.
 
The Howling

Dan O. said:
Originally Posted by RandyN
As a reminder Rudy Guede DNA was found inside Mez vagina! Hello!
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Maybe in their world that makes him family.
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Which world is that Dan O.

The UK / London – hardly ?

The world of families whose daughter is raped/murdered – perhaps from where you stand.

Or, or .......

Miss Kercher's mother was from Pakistan – she was one of those brown people.

Is that it. Do tell.

You barely have to scratch the surface before the reality of the groupie arguments is exposed.

Now what is the reason for this latest comment.
My throwaway line – perhaps.
The fact that the black killer will be out before the white kids killers– perhaps.
The realization that justice may soon be served .

Who knows ??

But in fairness to Dan O – this is not a new development.He previously threatened to start a thread exploring a sexual relationship between MK and RG [the guy convicted of her rape/murder] unless JREF comment on the groupie attacks on John Kercher didn't stop.
This visceral hatred of MK, her family and anyone associated with the prosecution of this case [especially PL – he's one of those also] is a recurrent theme.

I suspect that these impotent howls of rage/race hate will only increase in stridency and frequency as the judicial process grinds to its expected outcome.
 
Dan O. said:
If you read Filomena's account, she is the one that instigates breaking down Meredith's door. When she found out that Meredith was without her phones she says they have to look in the room. She first asks the postal police who are the only authorities present and they refuse. So she takes charge, states that she is the one responsible for the house, that it is her decision and has one of the boys break down the door. This all takes place quite quickly and the conversation was in fast paced italian that Amanda could not follow. Amanda was simply left behind in the kitchen when the others went to break down that door with the two large boys taking the assault position, Filomena commanding and the two postal police ordered to follow as witnesses.

How is it that the guilters claim that being further from the door is a sign of guilt? Why is Filomena who controlled the discovery not viewed as guilty? Did she come home that night and catch Meredith and Rudy eating her leftover pizza? Does she not command men to follow her orders?
I don't believe any of this has any barring on guilt. If anyone believes otherwise it is their burden to show scientifically valid studies from before this case that show the indicators can be clearly distinguished. Without that, all we have is the guilters fitting the events to their own predisposed belief of guilt.
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Love this, Dan.
 
Dan O. said:
I've had a transcription and google translation of Matteini on my wiki for almost 4 years.
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Yes, but Google Translate isn't quite what I meant by 'clean copy.' :)

Neither is Catnip's, the entire thing would be most enlightening.
 
AmyStrange said:
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ETA that and a pretty short criminal history, and a better than average understanding of US law and forensics
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I would argue that is my position as well
My statement would be 'If you think you have a real solid case against Amanda and Mr Nobody Raffaele, please present it."
I hear arguments that the court found them guilty. I am like "So what."

I wonder if they even considered, when they had the DNA evidence, that they might not be guilty?
 
platonov said:
Which world is that Dan O.

The UK / London – hardly ?

The world of families whose daughter is raped/murdered – perhaps from where you stand.

Or, or .......

Miss Kercher's mother was from Pakistan – she was one of those brown people.

Is that it. Do tell.

You barely have to scratch the surface before the reality of the groupie arguments is exposed.

Now what is the reason for this latest comment.
My throwaway line – perhaps.
The fact that the black killer will be out before the white kids killers– perhaps.
The realization that justice may soon be served .

Who knows ??

But in fairness to Dan O – this is not a new development.He previously threatened to start a thread exploring a sexual relationship between MK and RG [the guy convicted of her rape/murder] unless JREF comment on the groupie attacks on John Kercher didn't stop.
This visceral hatred of MK, her family and anyone associated with the prosecution of this case [especially PL – he's one of those also] is a recurrent theme.

I suspect that these impotent howls of rage/race hate will only increase in stridency and frequency as the judicial process grinds to its expected outcome.
Click to expand...

Can you give an example where anyone on this thread has attacked Meredith? Considering the massive level of misconduct which occurred in this case, people have a good reason for hating corrupt police and prosecutors.
 
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