Sam Harris on "Islamophobia"

[Axiom_Blade]

Has everybody forgotten about Salman Rushdie already? Here's a guy who made an irreverant observation about Mohammed in a book and had a bounty put on his head by Ayatollah Khomeini as a result. He had to have police protection for several years, and there was a (failed) attempt on his life.

 

[A'isha]

Has everybody forgotten about Salman Rushdie already? Here's a guy who made an irreverant observation about Mohammed in a book and had a bounty put on his head by Ayatollah Khomeini as a result. He had to have police protection for several years, and there was a (failed) attempt on his life.

I must have missed the fatawa placed on the writers and actors in Four Lions, the comedians featured in The Muslims Are Coming!, Harald Eia and Bård Tufte Johansen, the members of the Axis of Evil Comedy Tour, and Jeff Dunham.

Can you link them to me, please?

 

[Axiom_Blade]

I must have missed the fatawa placed on the writers and actors in Four Lions, the comedians featured in The Muslims Are Coming!, Harald Eia and Bård Tufte Johansen, the members of the Axis of Evil Comedy Tour, and Jeff Dunham.

Can you link them to me, please?

So, what is your argument? Now that Khomeini is dead, there won't be any more fatwas like that? Just because some people who blaspheme against Islam don't get fatwas, that doesn't mean that fear of fatwas is unjustified.

There's also (much more recently) the case of Malala Yousafzai, whose crime against Islam was trying to get women educated, and was shot as a result. I'm sure I could come up with other examples.

 

[A'isha]

Just because some people who blaspheme against Islam don't get fatwas, that doesn't mean that fear of fatwas is unjustified.

Actually, yeah, it kinda does. One high-profile case thirty years ago doesn't actually change the reality that there are plenty of comedians, both Muslim and non-Muslim, in both the west and in Muslim countries, who tell jokes about Islam and Muslims without any fear of death.

So the notion that "no one dares make fun of Islam or Muslims because they'll be killed if they do and so they're too afraid to tell those jokes" is not just false, but really really *********** false.

There's also (much more recently) the case of Malala Yousafzai, whose crime against Islam was trying to get women educated, and was shot as a result.

Yes, because the Taliban are ********, and unfortunately effectively control that part of Pakistan, and pretty much all of the rest of Pakistan was united in agreeing that the Taliban are ******** and that Malala is a hero.

 

[eight bits]

A'isha

Actually, yeah, it kinda does. One high-profile case thirty years ago doesn't actually change the reality that there are plenty of comedians, both Muslim and non-Muslim, in both the west and in Muslim countries, who tell jokes about Islam and Muslims without any fear of death.

Tolerating some humor can be a cost-effective component of a program of behavior control. So what? Rushdie wasn't telling Mohammed jokes.

The Rushdie case is also interesting because it illustrates that victims' responses to threats are variable. Christopher Hitchens openly supported Mr Rushdie, and declined advice to keep quiet about doing so. Visible public defiance can be a tactically effective response to threat.

Another source of variability is exposure profile. Mr Jillette cites his family as a security exposure. On information and belief, his family includes two minor children. Children are a special concern in personal security planning, because an attack against them can occur at any time during their lives. Meanwhile, they cannot give informed consent to the overt acts which may place them in jeopardy.

Bottom line, credible threats of violence can reduce the prevalence of behaviors that the threateners wish to inhibit, at low cost compared with other methods to encourage compliance. As with so many other things, however, lower cost often accompanies lower effectiveness. It is unreasonable to expect that a low-cost approach will eliminate non-conforming behavior.

 

[Axiom_Blade]

So is "homophobia" just a rhetorical fluorish to silence "critics" of homosexuality?

It's hyperbole, like how many feminists use "misogyny" (which means "hatred of women"). Not everybody who criticizes feminism hates women, but they get called a "misogynist" anyway. Likewise, not everybody who criticizes gays is afraid of them, but they get called a "homophobe" anyway.

 

[zugzwang]

False etymology. Homophobia doesn't mean fear of gays.

 

[Craig B]

False etymology. Homophobia doesn't mean fear of gays.

It's a silly word. Like "antisemitism". But hostility to gay people, like hostility to Jews, does exist, and for better or worse these are the words we have to denote this phenomenon. If we can invent better words we should, but recognition of the thing, rather than complaints about the word, is what is important.

 

[zugzwang]

It's a silly word. Like "antisemitism". But hostility to gay people, like hostility to Jews, does exist, and for better or worse these are the words we have to denote this phenomenon. If we can invent better words we should, but recognition of the thing, rather than complaints about the word, is what is important.

Sure, it just annoys me when people do this naff 'the meaning of a word is the sum of its constituents' stuff. Not true.

 

[Craig B]

Sure, it just annoys me when people do this naff 'the meaning of a word is the sum of its constituents' stuff. Not true.

Quite. The "homo" of homosexual, and therefore of homophobia, is from the Greek word meaning "same". So homophobia would thus be a fear of sameness, which it isn't. Semite refers to a group of languages, so antisemitism ought to mean inter alia hostility to the use of the Amharic tongue as an official language in Ethiopia. It doesn't. But we know what these expressions do in fact mean.

 

[quadraginta]

Quite. The "homo" of homosexual, and therefore of homophobia, is from the Greek word meaning "same". So homophobia would thus be a fear of sameness, which it isn't. Semite refers to a group of languages, so antisemitism ought to mean inter alia hostility to the use of the Amharic tongue as an official language in Ethiopia. It doesn't. But we know what these expressions do in fact mean.

That's right. Overly precise dissection of the etymology of a word may occasionally be interesting, maybe even informative, but what matters is what the word is generally and currently accepted to mean.

For example, "computer" used to be a job description. The usage has evolved.

Most people understand what is intended by the word "homophobe". I think the resistance to it is largely a matter of denial. Kind of like "I'm not a racist, but ...". Same way with Islamophobe.

 

[raff55]

'I must have missed the fatawa placed on the writers and actors in Four Lions, the comedians featured in The Muslims Are Coming!, Harald Eia and Bård Tufte Johansen, the members of the Axis of Evil Comedy Tour, and Jeff Dunham.

Can you link them to me, please? '

Four Lions was a criticism of Islam ? I think you need to watch it again.

 

[Polaris]

A'isha


Tolerating some humor can be a cost-effective component of a program of behavior control. So what? Rushdie wasn't telling Mohammed jokes.

The Rushdie case is also interesting because it illustrates that victims' responses to threats are variable. Christopher Hitchens openly supported Mr Rushdie, and declined advice to keep quiet about doing so. Visible public defiance can be a tactically effective response to threat.

Another source of variability is exposure profile. Mr Jillette cites his family as a security exposure. On information and belief, his family includes two minor children. Children are a special concern in personal security planning, because an attack against them can occur at any time during their lives. Meanwhile, they cannot give informed consent to the overt acts which may place them in jeopardy.

Bottom line, credible threats of violence can reduce the prevalence of behaviors that the threateners wish to inhibit, at low cost compared with other methods to encourage compliance. As with so many other things, however, lower cost often accompanies lower effectiveness. It is unreasonable to expect that a low-cost approach will eliminate non-conforming behavior.

And neither was Theo van Gogh, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Kurt Westergaard, the 200 people killed during the Cartoon Riots, the 31 people killed in riots after Terry Jones burned a Koran and those killer or injured during the Innocence of Muslims riots (and no, I'm not counting Benghazi).

It's not like there isn't a history, much more recent than Salman Rushdie's fatwa, of criticism or Islam causing violence, either against the criticizer or innocent bystanders.

Jillette would have been doing a little more than joking, I might add, he would have been condeming. For him (and Teller) to have taken up the subject of Islam would have been to, literally, call it ********. For what it's worth, and all.

 

[A'isha]

It's not like there isn't a history, much more recent than Salman Rushdie's fatwa, of criticism or Islam causing violence, either against the criticizer or innocent bystanders.

And, with 1.6 billion Muslims out there, I'd be surprised if that never happened. Particularly when things get exacerbated for political reasons, as the cartoons and the film were.

But, just as with terrorism, the "threat" is massively overblown, and the fact remains that the pants-wetting hyperbole of "you can't make jokes about Islam or you'll get killed!" is just that, pants-wetting hyperbole, as shown by the large numbers of people, both Muslim and non-Muslim, who have no problems whatsoever making jokes about Islam without risk or fear of getting killed.

 

[Dissolution]

I must have missed the fatawa placed on the writers and actors in Four Lions, the comedians featured in The Muslims Are Coming!, Harald Eia and Bård Tufte Johansen, the members of the Axis of Evil Comedy Tour, and Jeff Dunham.

Can you link them to me, please?

Not great examples, A'isha. Pretty low key stuff across the board and not particularly critical of Islam, if at all.
Jeff Dunham has been the target of death threats, but I doubt that's really unusual for somebody in the media.

Are there any famous comedians criticising Islam at the moment?
Might make a better point if they were used as an example.

 

[eight bits]

A'isha

But, just as with terrorism, the "threat" is massively overblown, and the fact remains that the pants-wetting hyperbole of "you can't make jokes about Islam or you'll get killed!" is just that, pants-wetting hyperbole, as shown by the large numbers of people, both Muslim and non-Muslim, who have no problems whatsoever making jokes about Islam without risk or fear of getting killed.

Sorry, I missed whom you were quoting ("you can't make jokes about Islam or you'll get killed!") and definitely missed who wet their pants while the person was saying it. Could you provide more information about this quote, please?

 

[A'isha]

Sorry, I missed whom you were quoting ("you can't make jokes about Islam or you'll get killed!") and definitely missed who wet their pants while the person was saying it. Could you provide more information about this quote, please?

It's in Jono's post 441 at the top of this page.

Are there any famous comedians criticising Islam at the moment?
Might make a better point if they were used as an example.

No, but that's for the reason colander and you yourself pointed out: there just isn't a big market for Muslim-specific humor. You might as well ask where all the famous comedians making fun of Buddhism or Hinduism are.

Four Lions was a criticism of Islam ?

Jihad satire

 

[eight bits]

A'isha

It's in Jono's post 441 at the top of this page.

Thank you, but here's the text of that post in its entirety (Jono does have a sig, but unless Oklahoman is an Islamophobic codeword, then that's unrelated).

Why use the term "phobia" in a way that it technically implies an ailment? It's a catch-phrase, it has nothing (or very little) with the actual clinical term. Regardless, since barely any comedian worth his/her salt dares to even flirt with Mohammed'esque jabs, as a general rule for fear of their own lives, I tend to agree with how Harris worded it in the OP's quote of his.

While I understand that you and Jono might disagree on which comedians are worth their salt, and another poster has cast some doubt on whether "jabs" and "jokes" are synonyms, nevertheless, I really can't seem to find the phrase you quoted ("you can't make jokes about Islam or you'll get killed!"), nor any mention of pants-wetting at all.

You don't suppose that you were perhaps hyperbolic in your complaint against what your perceived as hyperbole?

No, you'd never distort or exaggerate an opponent's position for rhetorical effect. Perhaps you meant another post, then?

 

[A'isha]

By all means, please explicate for us the vast differences between "barely any comedian worth his/her salt dares to even flirt with Mohammed'esque jabs, as a general rule for fear of their own lives" and "you can't make jokes about Islam or you'll get killed", such that the latter is an egregious distortion and exaggeration of the former.

 

[Axiom_Blade]

False etymology. Homophobia doesn't mean fear of gays.

According to several dictionaries...yes it does.