Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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The first picture on this page shows the bra clasp during the first or one of the first sweeps of Meredith's room. This photograph would have been in the collection of all the photographs presumably studied by the investigators in the first days after the discovery of the crime. Presumably all the photos would have been labeled and catalogued, along with the evidence. If this piece of evidence were missing from the collection at the lab, I seriously doubt they would have waited six weeks to return and retrieve it.

The test results index (translated) gives both a page number for the actual results as well as a page number for the photo that goes with it.

For example: "Rep, 24 - Sample of presumed blood substance taken from the front surface of the faucet of the washbasin (Rep.9/C) page 30 A.F./53 R.;"
indicates the test results are listed on page 53 of that document (53 R) and the picture is on page 30 of the photo file (30 A.F.). We have the test results but not the photo file that goes with it.

Each of them shows the exhibit report and/or attached, the page of the attached photograph (allegato fotografico A.F.) where the photographic image of the exhibit and the analytic result are presented.
 
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Possibly. The question is should she file in Italy or the US? A US court may reject such a suit on jurisdiction grounds but it will result in great media attention. Lawyers will be interviewed. Forensic scientists will be asked for sound bites and perhaps be given more face time to discuss forensic issues in more detail.

Maybe Amanda should seek $20 million damages just for being hit in police interrogation. Name the police woman who hit her. Whether the case proceeds or is rejected on jurisdiction grounds by a US court, more Americans will learn she was hit in police interrogation. Americans don't like police assault. Gin it up! The State Department will have to contend with that when they consider an extradition request.

I have a vague recollection of reading something about Mignini saying maybe Amanda got bumped accidentally from behind. Anybody else remember reading it? Was this something he said on camera? If he really said it, include it in media coverage of a lawsuit for police assault because it will make Prosecutor Mignini look duplicitous.

Judging by the amount and how much of it goes unpunished, one could argue that Americans love police assault.
 
I agree with your analysis here.

And to me, Mignini's remarks strongly support the belief that the criminal justice system in Italy is still horribly tainted by its messy and clumsy amalgamation of inquisitorial and adversarial systems.

To me, Mignini's remarks hark back to the inquisitorial days when the PM found the "judicial truth" in any given case: the PM was supposed to be a "neutral" investigating authority, with no vested interest in any particular position. Therefore, the version of events that the PM placed before the court was meant to be the "objective" assessment of the crime. And, as Mignini alludes to, the only seeming requirements was that the PM's version of events a) fit with the known evidence, and b) was not self-contradictory in any way. If it passed those threshold tests, then it was the version that tended to be accepted by the courts.

Of course, it doesn't take a genius in jurisprudence to see how horribly flawed this sort of methodology is in the application of justice. It's why the inquisitorial system is totally unfit for purpose in an age where investigative tools are so sophisticated and varied, and where human rights have actually evolved to something close to acceptable levels. But for clarity, here again are the two main reasons why this sort of inquisitorial approach is so fatally flawed:

1) PMs under an inquisitorial system still quite clearly have a balance of interest in obtaining convictions. It's therefore arrant nonsense to suggest that their presentation of the case is objective and disinterested.

2) There is zero benefit of the doubt given in practice to the accused under an inquisitorial system. This is patently unfair and unjust when the accused a) is up against the power of the state, b) is the one who stands to be punished if convicted, c) is the one against whom the accusations are made (and it should always be incumbent upon the accuser to prove the accusations), and d) can often not prove his/her innocence (which should never be an impediment in and of itself to being found not guilty).


Mignini's remarks only strengthen my belief that one of the fundamental structural and institutionalised problems in Italian criminal justice is this failure to abandon many of the fondly-held tenets of the old inquisitorial system. And the problem is that this can actually result in a far worse system of justice than even the old pure-inquisitorial system. I think that courtroom judges and PMs are still far, far too close to each other, and that court judges are still clearly inclined to place the PM's version of events as the default "starting position" - thereby shifting the burden onto the defence of essentially having to show the court how and why the PM's version is incorrect. And if the PM's version is logically consistent and is consistent with the evidence (even if, as you say, it's far from the best fit with the evidence), then it effectively becomes virtually impossible for the defence to sway the court.

I think that this is, to all intents and purposes, exactly what has happened in the Knox/Sollecito case. I think that the "burden of disproof" was implicitly placed upon the defence. I think we see it in the SC ruling and in the Nencini judgement, and we most definitely see it in Mignini's remarks. And it's massively destructive to the fair and just application of criminal justice in a modern liberalised democracy.
This is the type of post that makes me believe that intellect will prevail, just superb.
 
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What I wish guilters and haters would address is this... the standard of proof, the number of rhetorical excesses at trial "Lucerfina", etc.... as if guilt or innocence were determined by the quality of oratory, rather than the rational presentation of....
..... evidence.
.....

So what do Italian legislators and officials think of Italian jurisprudence? How can international corporations do business in a country where the courts can be so capricious? This has to be a factor to be considered when corporate executives decide whether to build a new facility in Italy. How do Italians themselves feel about a system that can put them or members of their family in prison without compelling evidence? Is there any reform movement in sight?
 
Up to now, I assumed that test results that find DNA but no cells were probably caused by DNA from dead skin cells floating around. It sounds like my idea about that might have been wrong, so what are the likely sources of DNA for samples where the source cells can't be identified?


It's not that there is no DNA in dead skin cells. The DNA is still there but it breaks into fragments and gets trapped in the dehydrated cells. Some may escape the entrapment when the sample is processed but will likely produce incorrect results. Studies of DNA from dust were presented much earlier in these threads.


Also, is the use of DNA results from samples where source cells can't be identified a common forensic practice? (My apologies, I think this was already answered but I'd like to confirm my memory of the answer, thanks).


I can't say if it is common. But such information would need to be used with caution. It would be good enough to point to possible suspects like an FBI profile but should not be used to establish guilt. Much like Rudy's MO of leaving the toilet unflushed made him a potential suspect, it was the confirmation of the palm print and then the matching of multiple DNA samples to the profile generated from his toothbrush that nailed him.


A completely unrelated item:
It just struck me today how strange the delayed finding of the bra clasp was. It seems like somebody would have noticed that the bra clasp was missing from the bra when the bra was first collected and initiated an intense effort to find it. I wonder who first noticed it was missing and when they noticed it was missing.


Watch the Crime Scene Video from November 2/3. You can see them pointing to the missing end as soon as they pick up the bra. The missing clasp is soon discovered under the pillow after Meredith's body is removed.

ETA: The earlier tape has audio. Has anyone transcribed what they were saying?
 
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Saw this on "IIP"
http://www.umbrialeft.it/notizie/meredith-csm-acquisirà-interviste-del-giudice-nencini

From my translation of the translation, there are three (?) investigations occurring about Nencini's chat with the press? Apparently this includes an investigation by the Attorney General of the Supreme Court Gianfranco Ciani. Hopefully something positive comes out of this, although it's hard to get optimistic about anything right now.
=sd=


Google translate sayeth:

I don't understand this. How could more than two investigations be necessary: 1) hack job, and 2) coverup?
 
one source touch of DNA

Back in 2010 we discussed a study from Professor Brown and colleagues (Toothman MH, KM Kester, J Champagne, T Dawson Cruz, WS Street IV, & BL Brown. 2008. Characterization of human DNA in environmental samples. Forensic Science International. 178(1): 7-15.). Their study showed that DNA mixtures could be found by sampling dust. It was later cited by Conti and Vecchiotti, which proves that they read this thread.:D

I agree that the process of keratinization of skin cells lessens the amount of useful DNA, but this opens the question of where touch DNA comes from. One thing to bear in mind about skin and hair samples is cell-free DNA. Cell-free DNA is a major source of touch DNA.
 
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I'm having difficulty reconciling some of the testimonies. Filomena says that on October 31 she and Marco returned to the cottage about 18:30 and prepared a pizza which was done at about 22:00. She said that Meredith came home after them but did not eat pizza. (The landlord complains that even leftover food was still in the oven when she got the cottage back 18 months later) Filomena and Marco then spent the night at his place.

Robyn tells that Meredith ate dinner at her place Before the girls went to the pubs and disco getting back about 04:30-05:00 the next morning where they part with Meredith at the steps above the basketball court.

On a related issue, does anybody know how to deal with google-fish swimming around in ones heads?
 
I'm having difficulty reconciling some of the testimonies. Filomena says that on October 31 she and Marco returned to the cottage about 18:30 and prepared a pizza which was done at about 22:00. She said that Meredith came home after them but did not eat pizza. (The landlord complains that even leftover food was still in the oven when she got the cottage back 18 months later) Filomena and Marco then spent the night at his place.

Robyn tells that Meredith ate dinner at her place Before the girls went to the pubs and disco getting back about 04:30-05:00 the next morning where they part with Meredith at the steps above the basketball court.

On a related issue, does anybody know how to deal with google-fish swimming around in ones heads?

I wish I could help you with your various problems Dan but, as I can't, maybe I can just chip in that it's as well none of these fine ladies ended up on trial for murder because their inability to get their stories straight might otherwise have looked very suspicious.
 
Judging by the amount and how much of it goes unpunished, one could argue that Americans love police assault.

JihadJane, you are incorrect. Americans do not like it one bit. As you will notice from our recent politics, even "right-wing" (conservative) Americans who normally respect authority are quick to espouse anti-government sentiments, be it on TSA airport security screeners, government "spying", "do-nothing" Congress, et al.

Police assault is a serious charge. Police departments have Internal Affairs units who investigate internal malreasiance or, if they sre too small to have such a unit, are investigated by another investigatory body. Because police assault is not only a state-level crime, but also a violation of an individual's constitutional rights it is a federal crime - meaning that the FBI, our federal-level police, investigates and prosecutes such crimes in a federal court. Individuals who have been wronged have recourse to civil courts. Our news media is always open to report on or investigate plausible cases.

The US has a large population (315 million) and a robust media, which with the development of the Internet means most anyone can "publish" and get their voice heard. Perhaps we are better at complaining about abuse (getting the word out) than other countries, and thus it may look to outsiders as if we have a lot of abuse. Perhaps our better-known cases are picked up and publicized more by foreign media.

Not too many foreign cases make it deep into our media. I can't recall reading recently about a French police abuse case or a German abuse case in recent US media coverage. I do of course know of an Italian police abuse case, for obvious reasons - although, interesting - this case which involves an American did not catch my attention for the first 3-1/2 years :p

From what I have seen in the Kercher case, Italy has no effective investigatory body investigating police, police lab, or prosecutorial misconduct.
 
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Amnesty International Report on Police concerns

From what I have seen in the Kercher case, Italy has no effective investigatory body investigating police, police lab, or prosecutorial misconduct.
"Italy still failed to make torture, as defined in the UN Convention against Torture, a specific crime within its penal code. There was no independent police complaints and accountability body. Policing operations were not in line with the European Code of Police Ethics, for example in the requirement for officers to display prominently some form of identification, such as a service number, to ensure they could be held accountable." (highlighting mine) This is a passage from Amnesty International's 2007 report on Italy.
 
Actually no...I don't think dried dead skin does contain DNA. Just like a dead hair likely contains no DNA but that a freshly pulled out hair would as would live skin cells...but as for the flying DNA impossibility myth?..

Germs fly, viruses fly, DNA flies...in Italy however science and facts do not matter. Its all about feelings. Nothing more than feelings.

I'd say the protocol for positive pressure hoods proves that the science is concerned with flying DNA

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Hair itself doesn't have DNA, it's the hair roots that do.

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Semantics tut-tut Or is it?

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FROM: http://forensicsciencecentral.co.uk/dna.shtml

Sources of DNA Evidence & DNA Extraction

"In terms of forensic DNA analysis, there is a variety of possible sources of DNA evidence. The more useful sources include blood, semen, vaginal fluid, nasal secretions and hair with roots. It is theoretically possible to obtain DNA from evidence such as urine, faeces and dead skin cells, though this is often classed as a poor source due to the lack of intact cells and high levels of contaminants preventing successful analysis. Such samples will be collected depending on the type of sample... "

ETA: I can find more cites if you want
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Forensic investigators look for two different types of DNA in a strand of hair. Traditionally they look for nuclear DNA (nDNA) which comes from the nucleolus and you can get that if the strand of hair as the follicle intact and not too damaged. This is primary, but you can still get DNA from the hair shaft itself without the use of the follicle. This is Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), and though this type of DNA has less information than nuclear DNA, it is very stable and that's great for investigators or scientists because you can even extract that type of DNA from mummies that are many thousands of years old. So if you're wondering if you can be caught by the police if all they have is a piece of hair with no follicle, yes you can!
 
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I don't know about Italy, but here in the US, you can file a lawsuit for ANY REASON, and before anyone goes crazy on me, YES YOU CAN, BUT IT DOESN'T MEAN IT WILL RESULT IN A COURT CASE. It may get thrown out as a result of summary judgement or for some other reason.

It is a court case even if it is dismissed because of summary judgment. If the plaintiff makes all his filings on time with proper service/notification to the defendant and the court the case will proceed until a summary judgment is granted by the judge, a settlement is reached, the case is dropped by the plaintiff or it goes the course. Summary judgement may be granted at different stages and of course a mistrial can be declared.

If Italy is like the US, I'm sure Raffaele could file a lawsuit, and actually I think that would be a good idea for the reasons you give, but I wouldn't go for a million dollars. I would go for 1 euro plus court and lawyer cost.

Perhaps Mach can tell us if Italy allows for some punishment for a failed lawsuit. I see no reason for suing for a 1 Euro in his case. I'm sure he could use the money.
 
Watch the Crime Scene Video from November 2/3. You can see them pointing to the missing end as soon as they pick up the bra. The missing clasp is soon discovered under the pillow after Meredith's body is removed.

ETA: The earlier tape has audio. Has anyone transcribed what they were saying?

Was this bra clasp assigned any sort of exhibit identifier prior to November 6?
 
Instead they have invented the 'we don't need no stinking timeline' doctrine, falling back on a misconception of Italian osmotic law to support their position. What they don't understand is that a crime theory is required and Nencini is obliged to provide one which, if it were not so serious, would be very funny.

Yes, guilters, you do need a timeline. Only one set of events really happened. As in - in reality. Reality will make all the evidence point to itself so we can infer what happened. If you want to hang on to all the data points you have to be able to fit them all together so that osmotically they produce a coherent picture. Otherwise you have to chuck away stuff that does not fit. You need an organising principle when doing the chucking away as the process is rational, not arbitrary. Once you have chucked away the jarringly incongruous there has to be something left. Enough to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Here's a hint - don't bother because it's impossible. Reality says so.

Well they would do much better by dropping Curatolo and the ear witnesses.

But of course it doesn't need a timeline you just have to look at pictures of how tired she was and the call to mother at an ungodly hour. There are footprints that match no one that weren't confirmed to be blood - isn't that enough.

She accused an innocent black man and has German heritage - need more be said?
 
This is what Andrew Gumbel is addressing in his piece just upthread. One doesn't need, apparently, a timeline or a theory of the crmie, one only need to produce a series of theories "compatible with logic", and then have an over all osmotic view.

Maybe it is me, and maybe it is you. Maybe we're the weird ones.

Nah.

Bill it seems that in Italy a few compatibles adds up to a match. I really think their minds operate differently.

She lived there, footprints that could be from her feet were found in a substance that could be blood, her DNA was found mixed with Meredith's blood and could have happened during the murder, they called the police perhaps after the PP arrived, they behaved oddly afterwards, she accused a black man and Raf owned knives. Add that all up and guilt is obvious and that's not even counting the staged break-in which 9 out 10 PLE agree was the case.
 
So what do Italian legislators and officials think of Italian jurisprudence? How can international corporations do business in a country where the courts can be so capricious? This has to be a factor to be considered when corporate executives decide whether to build a new facility in Italy. How do Italians themselves feel about a system that can put them or members of their family in prison without compelling evidence? Is there any reform movement in sight?

Back when Cassazione reversed the acquittals, Piers Morgan had Jeffrey Toobin and Glora Allred on to put this in perspective.

Allred addressed this point. She related her own experience in some sort of business start-up she'd attempted there, and specifically cited the legal climate.

Ok, that only one anecdotal thing. But business people need to know, both foreign and local, that if anything went wrong in one's business, or if some sort of criminal activity was claimed to have been associated with it - one can be tied up in Italian courts for decades.
 
Well they would do much better by dropping Curatolo and the ear witnesses. But of course it doesn't need a timeline you just have to look at pictures of how tired she was and the call to mother at an ungodly hour. There are footprints that match no one that weren't confirmed to be blood - isn't that enough.

She accused an innocent black man and has German heritage - need more be said?
ON what principle do these witnesses get thrown out? And what is the effect on other deductions their evidence supports? Nara proves there was a scream - the scream - which Amanda freely admitted she heard thus placing herself at the crime scene. If Nara goes, that point goes too. If Curatolo goes then evidence of them leaving Raf's place goes with him (unless we are digging up Kokomani - OK better forget that).

Furthermore, if we are chucking out evidence on the rather flimsy basis (in Italian law) that it is obviously utter crap there is nothing left. As indeed you imply.
 
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