Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Planigale said:
There has always been something odd about the 'Patrik' case. Accepting that AK named him as killing MK all be it probably an induced statement directed by the police interrogation. The police had no choice but to arrest and question him. But there was never a coherent statement that would have stood up as evidence. PL provided an alibi fairly promptly. That should have been it case over and apology from police.

However his bar was kept closed for a long time (six months?). Why?

If AK was liable for any blame it might be for the period between arrest and alibi. PL losing his business is clearly a consequence of some other Italian process. I suspect this may relate to pay offs / drug dealing; perhaps he ran too clean a bar and he was being made an example of for not striking deals with local power brokers? Who knows, but it is curious.
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Frankly, I'm not sure the police had to arrest Patrick. But I'll give you that. Maybe they did. Certainly they had to question him.

But they had alibis for him pretty much immediately....there was about a dozen people who said he was at his bar. He kind of screwed himself at the bar by not ringing up his customer's orders. ..clearly he was doing that time honored Italian business practice of avoiding taxes by hiding income. So there was no electronic evidence supporting his claim that he was running his business.

Frankly the idea that Patrick is much of a victim in this saga turns my stomach. He got slapped around when he was questioned, And then all of a sudden he changed his tune and was suing Amanda and saying despicable lies about her.

I felt sorry for him because the POLICE, not Amanda kept his bar closed until he had to declare bankruptcy but that wasn't and isn't Amanda's fault.
 
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Does anyone know how the Italian lay judges work? Much of the argument in these court cases seems to be paper based. In a common law case the Jury sit and hear all the evidence given. Do the lay judges go through the paper work before the formal trial component? There does not appear to be time between the end of the case and the verdict to go through it all subsequently.

I had assumed that a verdict would have been reached prior to the date that the verdict was announced, but it appears the judges sit down for the first time that day and have to come to a verdict that day, is that right?

I am just curious about the mechanics of how lay judges work.

Are there any good web sites?
 
AmyStrange said:
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I agree with most of what you said. Separating her behavior and her looks from the crime is really really hard, and to be perfectly honest, if it weren't for the TOD conclusions I've reached (and other things), I wouldn't be surprised at all if she actually did do it,

d

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Here is a really good radio interview, I hope you listen to it, radio is a medium that can not be surpassed for someone like Amanda.
May 13 2013 .... 24 minutes.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player/2553687
 
HotNostril said:
Patrick should feel grateful? Is that what you're claiming? Seriously?

I think "wronged" is in the eye of the beholder.
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YES...YES..YES In comparison... Patrick should feel damn grateful. He spent two weeks in jail for doing nothing wrong. Amanda and Raffaele spent 4 years behind bars...thinking that they could be in prison for the better part of their lives. Both 6 years later are still in fear of having to spend the next twenty years in prison. Damn right...as a victim he's nothing compared to Amanda, Raffaele or Meredith.
 
Planigale said:
Does anyone know how the Italian lay judges work? Much of the argument in these court cases seems to be paper based. In a common law case the Jury sit and hear all the evidence given. Do the lay judges go through the paper work before the formal trial component? There does not appear to be time between the end of the case and the verdict to go through it all subsequently.

I had assumed that a verdict would have been reached prior to the date that the verdict was announced, but it appears the judges sit down for the first time that day and have to come to a verdict that day, is that right?

I am just curious about the mechanics of how lay judges work.

Are there any good web sites?
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I can't help you there. I have some basic info...number of professional judges, number of lay judges but not much else. If you find a good website for this info, let us know.
 
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Samson said:
Here is a really good radio interview, I hope you listen to it, radio is a medium that can not be surpassed for someone like Amanda.
May 13 2013 .... 24 minutes.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player/2553687
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I promise, I will, but you do realize don't you that (even with her looks making me feel one way) I still believe Amanda and Raffaele are innocent?

d

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HotNostril said:
Patrick should feel grateful? Is that what you're claiming? Seriously?

I think "wronged" is in the eye of the beholder.
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I believe I read on this thread links to sources which indicate she tried to apologize. She is fighting to keep her butt from being in an Italian prison for the next 24 years. Don't think she has the recompense to help him financially.

The Italian government though is the one who should recompense Partrick, Amanda, and Raffaele.
 
acbytesla said:
YES...YES..YES In comparison... Patrick should feel damn grateful. He spent two weeks in jail for doing nothing wrong. Amanda and Raffaele spent 4 years behind bars...thinking that they could be in prison for the better part of their lives. Both 6 years later are still in fear of having to spend the next twenty years in prison. Damn right...as a victim he's nothing compared to Amanda, Raffaele or Meredith.
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I don't think he should feel grateful, but as he claims to have been beaten and racially abused by the same police, you think he should have some empathy for what Amanda also went through - and at least some degree of emotional intelligence to reflect on what happened and the impact of the many lies he has now told and the venom spouted by his lawyers

I don't think Amanda can do anything right though and it's bizarre that people are still commenting that she looked rough in the morning, to somehow imply guilt - I guess we'll be back to claiming she hadn't showered next, which is about the most ridiculous assertion you can make about someone who was supposedly involved in a bloody murder and isn't covered in blood

And also this constant claim that Amanda is narcissistic, what is this based on except for a presumption of guilt?
 
acbytesla said:
Frankly, I'm not sure the police had to arrest Patrick. But I'll give you that. Maybe they did. Certainly they had to question him.

But they had alibis for him pretty much immediately....there was about a dozen people who said he was at his bar. He kind of screwed himself at the bar by not ringing up his customer's orders. ..clearly he was doing that time honored Italian business practice of avoiding taxes by hiding income. So there was no electronic evidence supporting his claim that he was running his business.

Frankly the idea that Patrick is much of a victim in this saga turns my stomach. He got slapped around when he was questioned, And then all of a sudden he changed his tune and was suing Amanda and saying despicable lies about her.

I felt sorry for him because the POLICE, not Amanda kept his bar closed until he had to declare bankruptcy but that wasn't and isn't Amanda's fault.
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Say they had to interrogate Amanda without a lawyer because of article 104 and forget for a moment the contradiction in Mach invoking article 104 while saying at the same time she had no right to a lawyer. Pretend it was necessary because there was otherwise a risk that she would communicate with Patrick and he would flee or cover his tracks somehow. Fine. Deny her a lawyer, beat her up, scream and shout etc It's a murder after all. No time for pussy-footing.

Granted all that, how come Patrick was kept away from his lawyer prior to the Matteini hearing (and beaten up called 'dirty black' etc). They had all three perps once they arrested Patrick plus a slam dunk case (caso chiuso) so what was the problem then?

I say there was none and the fact there was none but yet they still deprived Patrick of his rights tells us these were cops and lawyers who were prepared to deprive people of their rights. They thought they could do it with impunity and it turns out they were right.

Whatever.

Grinder - if you read this far, I want you to take a break from quoting De Felice and say what you think his statement means and why. I aim to pick a fight with you about it :)
 
Self esteem and narcissism, the new ying and yang...

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NancyS said:
I don't think he should feel grateful, but as he claims to have been beaten and racially abused by the same police, you think he should have some empathy for what Amanda also went through - and at least some degree of emotional intelligence to reflect on what happened and the impact of the many lies he has now told and the venom spouted by his lawyers

I don't think Amanda can do anything right though and it's bizarre that people are still commenting that she looked rough in the morning, to somehow imply guilt - I guess we'll be back to claiming she hadn't showered next, which is about the most ridiculous assertion you can make about someone who was supposedly involved in a bloody murder and isn't covered in blood

And also this constant claim that Amanda is narcissistic, what is this based on except for a presumption of guilt?
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For me, it's the eyes, but I think it's more about the shadows. They make her eyes look creepy and I would be lying if I said she looked ok to me.

Narcissism must be the new ying for the old yang, self esteem. You remember the old 'new' phrase, 'you don't have enough self esteem', well now, it's 'you have too much narcissism' instead.

Amanda likes that about herself, that she says what she thinks and what she thinks is mostly about herself, that is not necessarily a bad thing and it definitely doesn't prove she's a murderer,

d

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AmyStrange said:
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For me, it's the eyes, but I think it's more about the shadows. They make her eyes look creepy and I would be lying if I said she looked ok to me.

Narcissism must be the new ying for the old yang, self esteem. You remember the old 'new' phrase, 'you don't have enough self esteem', well now, it's 'you have too much narcissism' instead.

Amanda likes that about herself, that she says what she thinks and what she thinks is mostly about herself, that is not necessarily a bad thing and it definitely doesn't prove she's a murderer,

d

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She just looks fairly normal to me, she has a naturally pretty face but seems like a bit of a geek. I don't think I've seen Amanda wear make-up apart from for TV interviews, which hardly makes her the looks obsessed Femme Fatale

She has pale eyes, which seem to not be popular with the general public - in the UK we had similar comments made about Kate McCann and Joanne Lees who also both had pale eyes

Perhaps a good eyebrow shape and some softening highlights would be the best thing Amanda could do to prove her innocence, which is a bit tragic really

It's all such nonsense though and it is impossible to tell what people are like from photos and video clips - some good people are just awkward in public and will never be loved outside of their close circle of friends and family. Some totally horrible people have the likability factor and people will love them regardless of their awful actions. I said this before but Jim Davidson (sexist, racist, wife beating comedian) just won Big Brother in the UK, which says it all for how terrible we are at judging someone's personality from the TV
 
AmyStrange said:
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I agree with most of what you said. Separating her behavior and her looks from the crime is really really hard, and to be perfectly honest, if it weren't for the TOD conclusions I've reached (and other things), I wouldn't be surprised at all if she actually did do it,

d

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I hope the fact that the idea of 2 young lovers randomly hooking up with an African drifter to brutally rape and murder someone.... and how ridiculous that premise sounds.... Is one of those other things.
 
Chris Jefferies was arrested for the murder of Joanne Yeates that took place in Bristol in December 2010. Very creepy guy, living alone, coloured his hair blue, everybody thought he was a strange bird so it was definitely him, especially as he lived upstairs. He was fingered by young, upstanding Dutch engineer Vincent Tabak, who lived in the adjoining apartment. Perversely, the cops, after arresting Jefferies ridiculously let him go and arrested Tabak instead! All Tabak's friends and family said it was impossible it was him because he was such a nice normal guy. They were stunned when he pleaded guilty to manslaughter, a plea neither the crown nor the jury accepted, with the result he was convicted of murder leaving the real weirdo still walking around scot-free.
 
Amanda did cry

HotNostril said:
I've not heard one report that she cried. IIRC quite the contrary, people remarked that she did not.
So why the puffy exhausted looking eyes?
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HotNostril,

Paola and Filomena reported that she cried (see Murder in Italy, pp. 77-78), and there is a photograph of Amanda where she appears to be wiping a tear away with Raffaele nearby. A link was posted at Websleuths and perhaps here also a few months ago.
 
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she apologized so much I got sick of hearing about it

HotNostril said:
If I had a gun to my head and falsely accused someone and that person was tossed in prison wrongly as a result....I would feel responsible, I'd have remorse, I'd apologize and do my very best to make amends.
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HotNostril,

Amanda apologized to the court for naming Patrik on 30 November 2007 and to Patrik on at least two occasions in court in 2010-2011 IIRC.
 
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