Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[acbytesla]

FWIW, I sympathized with acbytesla's comment even while I think it wasn't an appropriate comment to make at this juncture.

There is a phenomena that has been alluded to often in this thread about a tendency for people that believe RS & AK are guilty to draw conclusions based on observations of expressions, emotions and actions unrelated to the murder. It appears to us that many of these observations are just exercises in confirmation bias reinforcement driven by illogical analysis.

While I think it is appropriate to make you aware that some of your comments seem to border on this kind of thing as some of us might see it, I disagreed a bit on acbytesla's take on you that this is necessarily what is going on here. I think you've been open about your possible biases with respect to this issue and you seem to have been open to a logical discussion of the issues in places. My sense of it also, was that you should be given the benefit of the doubt as a new poster in this forum and not have gotten the same kind of crap that is usually reserved for a more long term poster.

I would certainly be willing to give Hot Nostril the benefit of the doubt if her comments were about something concrete that isn't subjective ephemera.

From my perspective, Hot Nostril is not "searching for truth" or debating the available evidence. No instead it seems to be a campaign of innuendo based on subjective readings of trivia that start with her own confirmation bias.

I hold no animosity toward her. I'd address any questions of hers or anyone about times of phone calls, autopsy procedures, how cellular communications works, acoustic patterns, night blindness, digestion, data, glass patterns, DNA, LCN, TMB and Luminol, etc..

 

[AmyStrange]

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Agreed.

I will say that I find it incredibly difficult to ignore all of her behavior.
I make every possible conscious effort to not let it effect my thought process but I'm not always successful.

I have not discussed her behavior here.

I've been given much to think about and consider, and I'm doing that.

I've stated that I believe her to be a narcissist and that doesn't make her a murderer. It actually excuses much of her behavior.

Most of the time, I find her to be her own worst enemy. She really should just shut up and let others speak for her. She's not doing herself any favors.

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I agree with most of what you said. Separating her behavior and her looks from the crime is really really hard, and to be perfectly honest, if it weren't for the TOD conclusions I've reached (and other things), I wouldn't be surprised at all if she actually did do it,

d

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[HotNostril]

I have never posted on one. I have happened on them occasionally when I have been searching the internet for something related to this case.

The last time that happened I was so grossed out that I could hardly stand to read anything. There was some sort of weird Guede wasn't that bad but Knox is horrible thing going on. Good friggin grief. A man that brutally raped and murdered Kercher wasn't all that bad but well Knox there's a really despicable human being? This might not have been a typical thread to look at but it was bad enough for me that I never wanted to even take another look at a guilter site let alone communicate with the people that participate in them.

I know this has been discussed before, but what in the world generates this anti-Knox mania. I look at her and see a woman with intelligence, discipline and courage. What in the world are other people seeing that I am missing?

I can only tell you what I see.
I see her as completely and totally self absorbed and unwilling to take any responsibility for anything. She appears cold and detached and the only genuine emotion I've witnessed, is when it concerns her. She comes off as rehearsed and a poor actress.

If I had a gun to my head and falsely accused someone and that person was tossed in prison wrongly as a result....I would feel responsible, I'd have remorse, I'd apologize and do my very best to make amends.

I can understand her saying it was the investigators fault, I can even understand that under great distress she felt forced into saying it...she should still feel bad about it. I do not believe she does. Her narcissism may explain it but I can not excuse it.

 

[acbytesla]

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Yeah, I see you got slammed just for making an observation also.

I personally think she looks like that a lot. It's her look, but the morning after the murder was the worse for her. She looks especially creepy to me that day.

You think she looks like she didn't get a good night's sleep. I think she looks like she heard something behind that door the night before which helped give her an even creepier look the next day. Some people say she looks like she just lost a friend. All of them are legitimate observations.

The bottom line is she's kind of creepy looking to some people and this doesn't help her case for innocence much, but it's still a legitimate observation, that unfortunately doesn't sit right with some people who are already jumpy from being steadily attacked here by the PGP camp.

All observations are always legitimate, as is yours and mine and everyone else's too; it's the conclusion jumping from there that someone is guilty of murder, that's not always legitimate, in my opinion,

d

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The problem Amy is that is entirely subjective and is just your own personal perception. I have seen some pretty creepy pictures of Amanda. Photographers will tell you that they take thousands of pictures to get the one that they want to convey a specific message. Take enough pictures and you'll get some picture that would make Julia Roberts or Reese Witherspoon look creepy.
Check out the Supermarket tabloid pictures as you walk by them. They always take those unflattering shots of celebs.

But I've also seen lots of pictures of Amanda where she looks beautiful, confused, sincere. etc...

I know one thing for sure. I can't judge her personality. character or behavior by those pictures.

 

[HotNostril]

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I agree with most of what you said. Separating her behavior and her looks from the crime is really really hard, and to be perfectly honest, if it weren't for the TOD conclusions I've reached (and other things), I wouldn't be surprised at all if she actually did do it,



d



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I'm chewing on the information provided about the TOD & digestion.

My friend's husband is a medical examiner, having dinner with them next week...should be a fun dinner topic.

 

[Kaosium]

I can only tell you what I see.
I see her as completely and totally self absorbed and unwilling to take any responsibility for anything. She appears cold and detached and the only genuine emotion I've witnessed, is when it concerns her. She comes off as rehearsed and a poor actress.

If I had a gun to my head and falsely accused someone and that person was tossed in prison wrongly as a result....I would feel responsible, I'd have remorse, I'd apologize and do my very best to make amends.

I can understand her saying it was the investigators fault, I can even understand that under great distress she felt forced into saying it...she should still feel bad about it. I do not believe she does. Her narcissism may explain it but I can not excuse it.

They arrested her too, BTW, then defamed her to the world and convicted her of murder and she spent four years in prison. Patrick should count his blessings, he got off easy. It wasn't Amanda Knox who arrested him, it was the police, and when he got out the first thing he did was take it out on her in the press and in the courts and hasn't shut up about her since, that's just creepy. She was far more wronged than he.

 

[HotNostril]

They arrested her too, BTW, then defamed her to the world and convicted her of murder and she spent four years in prison. Patrick should count his blessings, he got off easy. It wasn't Amanda Knox who arrested him, it was the police, and when he got out the first thing he did was take it out on her in the press and in the courts and hasn't shut up about her since, that's just creepy. She was far more wronged than he.

Patrick should feel grateful? Is that what you're claiming? Seriously?

I think "wronged" is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[AmyStrange]

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The problem Amy is that is entirely subjective and is just your own personal perception. I have seen some pretty creepy pictures of Amanda. Photographers will tell you that they take thousands of pictures to get the one that they want to convey a specific message. Take enough pictures and you'll get some picture that would make Julia Roberts or Reese Witherspoon look creepy.
Check out the Supermarket tabloid pictures as you walk by them. They always take those unflattering shots of celebs.

But I've also seen lots of pictures of Amanda where she looks beautiful, confused, sincere. etc...

I know one thing for sure. I can't judge her personality. character or behavior by those pictures.

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It is VERY subjective and I've actually made the same comments here you did, especially about the tabloid pictures. I've commented on the differences between "People" and the "National Enquirer" as examples.

People will always judge other people by their looks, I don't think that will ever change, but I always try to keep myself aware that I'm doing this, but it's really hard to never do it ever,

d

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[AmyStrange]

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I'm chewing on the information provided about the TOD & digestion.

My friend's husband is a medical examiner, having dinner with them next week...should be a fun dinner topic.

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Yes, that should be a very appetizing dinner subject, ha ha.

I'm glad you're at least looking into it. Good for you. Don't ever take anyone's word for something, especially me, always look it up yourself, and also always consider looking at it from both sides, not just one,

d

ETA personally to me it's not just the digestion, but also Meredith's last try to her Mom and Rudy's Skype together make the TOD more probably around 9:30 rather than later
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[kwill]

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Separating her behavior and her looks from the crime is really really hard, and to be perfectly honest, if it weren't for the TOD conclusions I've reached (and other things), I wouldn't be surprised at all if she actually did do it,

Well, I would be astonished beyond description.

And I find the idea that her "behavior and looks" as reported by the media are more reliable indicators than her personality as described by those who know her best and longest to be extremely odd. A single image taken by a photographer with a telephoto lens captures more than a description from a teacher with a year's worth of evidence? Really?

The media is a prism designed to earn profits for the people who own it. If we trust the media to inform our opinions without remembering that basic reality, we're asking to be misinformed.

And the answer to the question embedded in your name is, yes, urstrange. Sometimes.

 

[Kaosium]

Patrick should feel grateful? Is that what you're claiming? Seriously?

Yes, he got out of jail, Amanda and Raffaele didn't.

I think "wronged" is in the eye of the beholder.

I don't think Italian police dance to the tune of college girls, I think they do the yelling and hitting and get what they want and then don't take responsibility for the damage they've done. They blame it on the college girl they took into the backroom in the middle of the night on little sleep. That's wrong and they should be ashamed of themselves and no one should buy their scapegoating of an innocent girl for their mistaken suspicions and wrongful arrests. So they bullied a frightened college girl halfway around the world from home into incoherence and delusion and it's her fault?

I think that's pathetic and will offer no succor to those who buy into or feed it---including Patrick.

 

[davefoc]

...

If I had a gun to my head and falsely accused someone and that person was tossed in prison wrongly as a result....I would feel responsible, I'd have remorse, I'd apologize and do my very best to make amends.

...

This has been discussed many times in this thread. I see this alleged false accusation as something very different than you do. Over a period of about five days Knox and Sollecito were interrogated several times. The last time ended at 1:45 AM. On November 6, 2007.

The police announced at the end of this process that Knox and Sollecito had told them what they already knew. Except that to confirm their beliefs they needed to harshly interrogate and assault Knox and deprive her of sleep, and ask her to imagine aspects of the crime like she'd been their.

I think you vastly overrate the ability of the average person to maintain their ability to reason while they are undergoing sleep deprivation.

There is a description of the interrogation here:
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/TheInterrogation.html

You might not believe Knox when she says that she was hit during the interrogation but Lumumba claimed exactly the same thing in an interview he gave after he was released.

If you are interested this is a translation of the statement signed on November 6, 2007:
http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Amanda_Knox%27s_Confession#Amanda.27s_Statement_to_the_Police

This is a copy of the statement that Knox gave to the police on the evening of the same day withdrawing her accusation against Lumumba:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1570225/Transcript-of-Amanda-Knoxs-note.html

So Knox withdrew any implication from her confused statement that she gave to the police on 1:45 AM that she had knowledge that Lumumba was involved. This didn't keep the police from throwing Lumumba in jail and shutting down his bar for months. The police believed Lumumba was guilty. Knox didn't believe he was guilty or not guilty. She didn't know, she wasn't there when Kercher was murdered. Through subterfuge, intimidation and manipulation the police managed to get a statement made without a lawyer or an independent translator implicating the man they "knew" was the murderer.

And then to cover up for the own misbehavior they charged Knox with calumnia as if they got the idea that Lumumba was the murderer from her.

 

[HotNostril]

Yes, he got out of jail, Amanda and Raffaele didn't.







I don't think Italian police dance to the tune of college girls, I think they do the yelling and hitting and get what they want and then don't responsibility for the damage they've done. They blame it on the college girl they took into the backroom in the middle of the night on little sleep. That's wrong and they should be ashamed of themselves and no one should buy their scapegoating of an innocent girl for their mistaken suspicions and wrongful arrests. So they bullied a frightened college girl halfway around the world from home into incoherence and delusion and it's her fault?



I think that's pathetic and will offer no succor to those who buy into or feed it---including Patrick.

Too bad those interrogation videos can't back up your assertions and absolute defense of Knox.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Agreed.

I will say that I find it incredibly difficult to ignore all of her behavior.
I make every possible conscious effort to not let it effect my thought process but I'm not always successful.

I have not discussed her behavior here.

I've been given much to think about and consider, and I'm doing that.

I've stated that I believe her to be a narcissist and that doesn't make her a murderer. It actually excuses much of her behavior.

Most of the time, I find her to be her own worst enemy. She really should just shut up and let others speak for her. She's not doing herself any favors.

I disagree with this, but maybe that is because I like her as a person. I see her as credible and sincere, the antithesis of criminality. I think the more the world sees of her, the better.

I didn't know her before any of this happened. I started with the assumption that she was a drugged-out wreck like Justina Morley, because that is how she was portrayed in the media.

But the doubts were always there. The facts never really fit that kind of criminal personality. Bit by bit, I could see that the evidence the authorities were presenting did not in any way explain the crime. It became obvious they were throwing out whatever peripheral scraps they could find that might invite suspicion, without trying to fit it into any kind of overall theory, because it didn't fit.

I have seen that before, many times. That is what the authorities do when they stake their credibility to an accusation that doesn't hold up. Hernandez and Cruz... Lindy Chamberlain... all the way back to Alfred Dreyfus. It swam into focus, like one of those magic eye pictures, over a period of several months. It was obvious. They had nothing of substance, because she didn't do it.

It also became clear that there is an explanation for this crime that fits the real evidence, which is very much like many other crimes I have followed over the years. A girl got killed by a burglar who also took the opportunity to rape her.

I got to know Amanda's family, and they gave me the evidence files, which confirmed that this is what happened. The crime scene photos tell the story, brutally and unmistakably. It wasn't a "sex game" involving a group, or a squabble between two college girls.

Simon Hatterstone's recent article is very good. I noticed some little details, including this one:

Knox spends 10 minutes offering me teas, making me smell peppermint, rose-caramel, crimson quartet.

Now THAT rings true. That is the Amanda Knox I have gotten to know over the past few years, ever so slightly goofy and preoccupied. Not edgy or aggressive, not a sexpot. She is a friendly, unassuming, homey person by nature. She lives a quiet life, close to her family and a small circle of friends who love her dearly. She is reeling under all of this, and has no idea what to do. I wouldn't either.

 

[AmyStrange]

Am I Strange

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Well, I would be astonished beyond description.

And I find the idea that her "behavior and looks" as reported by the media are more reliable indicators than her personality as described by those who know her best and longest to be extremely odd. A single image taken by a photographer with a telephoto lens captures more than a description from a teacher with a year's worth of evidence? Really?

The media is a prism designed to earn profits for the people who own it. If we trust the media to inform our opinions without remembering that basic reality, we're asking to be misinformed.

And the answer to the question embedded in your name is, yes, urstrange. Sometimes.

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Hey, I personally think I look creepy and if it was me up there instead of Raffaele, I would think I did it also, and I know me better than anybody.

People judge people by their looks all the time. It's a fact. It takes a special kind of inner perception to admit looks aren't always perceptively correct and a constant vigil is the only way for some people (me included) to get over that idea,

d

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[Kaosium]

Too bad those interrogation videos can't back up your assertions and absolute defense of Knox.

They don't have to, you can tell the way it happened by the statements they got and what they did as a result of them, and what she did too.

They could have sent someone to check his alibi, they would have found a lot of them had they actually been trying. What they did do shows just how certain they were of something that on the face of it ought to be quite dubious.

 

[Planigale]

There has always been something odd about the 'Patrik' case. Accepting that AK named him as killing MK all be it probably an induced statement directed by the police interrogation. The police had no choice but to arrest and question him. But there was never a coherent statement that would have stood up as evidence. PL provided an alibi fairly promptly. That should have been it case over and apology from police.

However his bar was kept closed for a long time (six months?). Why?

If AK was liable for any blame it might be for the period between arrest and alibi. PL losing his business is clearly a consequence of some other Italian process. I suspect this may relate to pay offs / drug dealing; perhaps he ran too clean a bar and he was being made an example of for not striking deals with local power brokers? Who knows, but it is curious.

 

[acbytesla]

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It is VERY subjective and I've actually made the same comments here you did, especially about the tabloid pictures. I've commented on the differences between "People" and the "National Enquirer" as examples.

People will always judge other people by their looks, I don't think that will ever change, but I always try to keep myself aware that I'm doing this, but it's really hard to never do it ever,

d

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Yes, you're right. They do. And if you've lived long enough you know that it means little.
I know this may come as a surprise to you and everyone reading. There was a time in America when people were judged people by the color of their skin. Did you know that if the pigment of your skin was dark, people could actually buy and sell you as property? Shocking I know, but its' true.

They also judged people by sexual preference too. There was a time when I decided to have sex with a woman based entirely on her attractiveness.
Kind of shallow I know.

I've changed...because over time, I came to realize that some of the prettiest ones were lousy lays.

Judging any book by its cover is almost not a good idea.

 

[AmyStrange]

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Yes, you're right. They do. And if you've lived long enough you know that it means little.
I know this may come as a surprise to you and everyone reading. There was a time in America when people were judged people by the color of their skin. Did you know that if the pigment of your skin was dark, people could actually buy and sell you as property? Shocking I know, but its' true.

They also judged people by sexual preference too. There was a time when I decided to have sex with a woman based entirely on her attractiveness. Kind of shallow I know.
I've changed...because over time, I came to realize that some of the prettiest ones were lousy lays.

Judging any book by its cover is almost not a good idea.

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You dawg you.

Everything else I agree with you on, except I still chose my books by their covers, sorry

d

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[acbytesla]

If I had a gun to my head and falsely accused someone and that person was tossed in prison wrongly as a result....I would feel responsible, I'd have remorse, I'd apologize and do my very best to make amends.

And after apologizing time and time and time and time and time and time again and after spending 4 years in prison and being sued by that person and after reading article after article after article where he trashed you viciously and his lawyer in court for years said the most despicable things about you....would you stop?