Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Desert Fox]

Just a general question... that I am sure some of you have experience with.

What is it like going to a guilters message board and trying to argue the case for innocence?

You must not be able to last long.

Was not a "guilter" website per say but argued with people on a board who were extremely "Pro-Guilt"
Brought up how bad the US system is, brought up how they were convinced by the court document from the Italian Supreme Court, etc. . .
Thread was locked or I would have brought up the case of the 60 year old and the 11 year old.

 

[RandyN]

I think he has given us an insight into how differently the Italian mind works than the Anglo mind. He sincerely believes that a number of compatibles equals a match. He believes that the witnesses can't be questioned because they only came forward after long encouragement by Fois and because they seemed credible. He believes one can only doubt a witness on their performance and that they must be believed unless they have an obvious motive to lie.

He certainly has had the best record here of predicting what the courts would do in all the cases followed.

Not sure what "cases" other than this one that Yummi expressed opinion on...

But standing 100 % behind police and prosecution theory no matter what and in fact in spite of strong evidence that in this wrongful conviction case against RS and AK the police and prosecutor are simply wrong and it seems entirely likely that corrupt acts are involved to secure these wrongful convictions seems clear and irrefutable and that Yummi agrees with that is meaningless.

Not sure he got Hellmann right or even if he was around for Massei but he predictably argues against logic facts and evidence and yet the Italian courts keep coming up with guilty in this case like he expects them to do. I think my record is as good as his. I thought Massei would find guilty. I thought Hellmann would find innocent and I expected guilt in this latest sham errr retrial oh whatever.

Now I never saw the SC thing coming especially in light of the fact that Hellmann bent over backwards to allow the prosecution every effort to present a case and even when he caught them doing several bad things...refusing DNA discovery, fake control data sheets, car loads of goon squads dispatched to Rome...heroin addicted witnesses and even Guede reading but not allowed to be cross examined that the SC would fully realize that the police and prosecutor were clearly corrupt creeps willing to do and say anything to convict these two no matter what. And so the fact that they overturned Hellmann was a shock. It still remains an illogical and illegal act and if there was any sort of judicial review authority in Italy then this would have them looking. But no ...

So yes Yummi understands that the judiciary operates with the moral authority of the mafia albeit with less honor IMO. But I also understand that too because of the overwhelming evidence that this case is so poorly and unjustly prosecuted. Its nutty and arguing the prosecutions side makes one an accessory to nuttiness.

No matter...Knox will stay here and they can toss RS into jail and they can release Guede on work release and everything in Italy will be "normal and fine".

Just don't expect me to be visiting this western country with the most human rights violations or so says the European Court Of Human Rights anyway...yawn.

But sure I suppose a whole country can be so easily fooled??? Sheeple.

 

[Strozzi]

We can consider that as soon as she was taken into the interrogation room on November 5th, she was detained, because she did not know she could leave.

I saw a YouTube video of an American motorist stopped by a policeman. After looking at his driver's license, the policeman started asking the motorist questions. The motorist responded to every question "I don't answer questions". The policeman was stunned; it was not what he was used to. A few more questions with the same "I don't answer questions" answer and the policeman stopped with his questions and sent the motorist on his way.

I also heard of a criminal defense attorney who never provides any info to prosecutors about the person they are prosecuting. They never get to talk with the defendant or his attorney. There is no discussion; the prosecutors are almost blind when presenting their case as they have no info beyond their basic info. They know next to nothing about the defendant.

 

[Desert Fox]

Caper, just think how many Americans believe that Obama was not born in the US (a legal requirement to be president) and that he is secretly a muslim. There is a polite term for stupid people like that. They are called "low information voters".

There is a lot of legal debate about that. You have to be "Natural Born" citizen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural-born-citizen_clause

 

[HotNostril]

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I don't think it was secret. Raffaele dozes off for a minute, Amanda remembers something in her bedroom that she had forgotten, she jimmied the door so it would be easier to get back in, got scared to death by noises behind the door of Meredith's room raced back to Raffaele's house, slips back in and for some strange reason is too scared to tell Raffaele about it.

To me, it's possible, although I do agree it's not highly probable.

The next day, to me anyway, she looks like something like that happened. Raffael not really big time concerned and more relaxed looking than Amanda, comforting her, kissing her, hugging her.

He looks like he doesn't really know, but Amanda does look like she's got a scared feeling something bad is going to happen.

Hearing things behind closed doors sounds more like her confession/ accusation/ statement than anything I've heard anywhere.

there's also a sub-group within the PGP camp that don't necessarily believe they're murderers, but did know something about the murders before they were discovered.

Although improbable, it's still possible, in my opinion,

d

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I think she looks as if she didn't get any sleep.
She looks pretty darn rough for such a young girl who supposedly got a good nights sleep.

 

[Bill Williams]

I think she looks as if she didn't get any sleep.
She looks pretty darn rough for such a young girl who supposedly got a good nights sleep.

.... and who just had a flatmate murdered.....

 

[Strozzi]

Now I never saw the SC thing coming especially in light of the fact that Hellmann bent over backwards to allow the prosecution every effort to present a case and even when he caught them doing several bad things...refusing DNA discovery, fake control data sheets, car loads of goon squads dispatched to Rome...heroin addicted witnesses and even Guede reading but not allowed to be cross examined that the SC would fully realize that the police and prosecutor were clearly corrupt creeps willing to do and say anything to convict these two no matter what. And so the fact that they overturned Hellmann was a shock. It still remains an illogical and illegal act and if there was any sort of judicial review authority in Italy then this would have them looking. But no ...

a few weeks ago I asked how the Court of Cessation operates in practice, but never got an answer. Given that they rule on 80,000 or so cases a year, they as a panel cannot possibly study these cases.

I wonder if a specific judge is responsible for a specific case, and getting your case to the right crony judge is very important. He listens to a court clerk who advises what it is about and the judge decides what he wants to do with the case. The judge then leads the other judges through the judge's preferred decision, and they as a panel rubber-stamp the concerned judges' preferred verdict. Someone has to write the motivation and that is probably handled by the concerned judge's clerk who freely accepts the winning-side's attorney's draft.

Is this how it works in practice?

 

[HotNostril]

.... and who just had a flatmate murdered.....

I've not heard one report that she cried. IIRC quite the contrary, people remarked that she did not.
So why the puffy exhausted looking eyes?

 

[Desert Fox]

I've not heard one report that she cried. IIRC quite the contrary, people remarked that she did not.
So why the puffy exhausted looking eyes?

I was listening to a podcast. A woman called into the show. Let us call her "Kat"
Kat says that she was eight and a half months pregnant when her baby died.
A non believer, she could not go to God and Jesus for help.
All she could think about was that if she broke down, everybody around her would break down. As a result, Kat stayed firm, did not cry, and helped everybody else, even while she was delivering the dead body (she wanted a Vaginal Birth not a Cesarian because she did not want a scar reminding her of the horror)
Some people act different under stress.

 

[Matthew Best]

Has Harry ever posted on here?

No, which is why I can say without fear of moderator action that he is a nutcase.

 

[Strozzi]

I've not heard one report that she cried. IIRC quite the contrary, people remarked that she did not.
So why the puffy exhausted looking eyes?

I read reports quoting police that she did cry. She was seen crying by a police officer not long after the discovery of the body. She was seen crying and very upset the next day as well. But after a few days when the PLE wanted to shape her image as a wicked killer they stopped telling journalists about it.

Let me ask you what reports did you see about Filomena, Laura, or Meredith's boyfriend Giacomo Silenza crying? Why did Filomena and Laura skip the candle-lit memorial service for Meredith?

 

[Bob001]

.....
I also heard of a criminal defense attorney who never provides any info to prosecutors about the person they are prosecuting. They never get to talk with the defendant or his attorney. There is no discussion; the prosecutors are almost blind when presenting their case as they have no info beyond their basic info. They know next to nothing about the defendant.

That doesn't sound right. The prosecutor has presumably built his case on the evidence he has assembled from witnesses, forensics, etc., and he can find out plenty from public records, interviewing people who know the defendant etc., etc. And both sides have discovery obligations. Some defendants make the prosecutor's job way too easy, but a prosecutor doesn't need to talk to the defendant to lock him up.

 

[Matthew Best]

I've not heard one report that she cried. IIRC quite the contrary, people remarked that she did not.

How would they know? Were they with her every second of the day?

 

[GWCarver]

Just a reminder that around 47% of the voters in this country voted for Romney. Talking like almost half of the people in this country are nut-job right-wing radicals is just silly, especially when the entire congress could very well be Republican after the November elections. Just consider there is a lot of confirmation bias on both sides of the aisle

Feel free to fire away in response, but after that I will just let it slide and we really shouldn't talk about politics here because it is off-topic and can be a volatile subject in the best of times. The PIP need to stick together regardless of our political affiliation because it simply doesn't matter. Plus, although I've never voted for a Democrat, I am essentially a social liberal, so we have far fewer disagreements than one might expect.

 

[Matthew Best]

Talking like almost half of the people in this country are nut-job right-wing radicals is just silly, especially when the entire congress could very well be Republican after the November elections.

I find this sentence most confusing; the first half of it seems to disagree with the second half.

 

[Bill Williams]

I think she looks as if she didn't get any sleep.
She looks pretty darn rough for such a young girl who supposedly got a good nights sleep.

.... and who just had a flatmate murdered.....

I've not heard one report that she cried. IIRC quite the contrary, people remarked that she did not.
So why the puffy exhausted looking eyes?

This is called confirmation bias. This started with the unfounded allegation that she looked like she didn't get any sleep. (This despite another poster's contention, Machiavelli, that Knox could actually choose not to sleep and avoid any physiological effects of that choice!)

Do you see what Knox is up against? People can just make up stuff.

And further, instead of dealing with the "sleep" issue, the people who make up stuff slide over it into the next factoid. "I've not heard one report that she cried."

Sheesh... this is the problem, right here, right now. All the counters to that factoid notwithstanding (One of which is that that cops accused her of crying at the wrong times, whatever is meant by the wrong times!)....

.... the crying issue won't be addressed and it'll slide into something else.

I was told she had sex on a train.

I was told she didn't keep a clean toilet.

I was told..... blah blah blah.

Can we at least get back to the sleep issue? This has been the problem all along. Throwing mud hoping some will stick.

 

[Strozzi]

That doesn't sound right. The prosecutor has presumably built his case on the evidence he has assembled from witnesses, forensics, etc., and he can find out plenty from public records, interviewing people who know the defendant etc., etc. And both sides have discovery obligations. Some defendants make the prosecutor's job way too easy, but a prosecutor doesn't need to talk to the defendant to lock him up.

Public records tell the prosecutor address, auto registration, any prior arrest, etc. but if a prosecutor wants to claim that you stole a car on a certain evening, he certainly would like to know before he presents the case in court if you were in fact in town that evening. He doesn't want to present that claim in court and then have you demonstrate that you were at a wedding far away, or on a 5-day Caribbean Cruise, or in the hospital and having your vital signs recorded when he claims you stole a car the same evening. If a prosecutor has no idea if you have an alibi, let alone what it might be, he can't prepare in advance to refute it.

Ths is why the police listened to 39,000 Sollecito-family phone calls. They wanted to learn what the family was doing to counter the prosecution's allegations. The police learned that the Sollecito family had located the same model of shoe that Rudy wore and was about to go public with it and discredit the prosecution and police shoeprint claim against Raffaele. So, 47 days after the crime, Stefanoni led her large team of forensic assistants and video and lighting techs back into the trashed crime scene to recover the bra clasp.

 

[HotNostril]

How would they know? Were they with her every second of the day?

I talking specifically about the morning of the discovery. The photos of her and RS. She appears to have not slept.

 

[Desert Fox]

I talking specifically about the morning of the discovery. The photos of her and RS. She appears to have not slept.

And why do you think that is so important?

 

[acbytesla]

This is called confirmation bias. This started with the unfounded allegation that she looked like she didn't get any sleep. (This despite another poster's contention, Machiavelli, that Knox could actually choose not to sleep and avoid any physiological effects of that choice!)

Do you see what Knox is up against? People can just make up stuff.

And further, instead of dealing with the "sleep" issue, the people who make up stuff slide over it into the next factoid. "I've not heard one report that she cried."

Sheesh... this is the problem, right here, right now. All the counters to that factoid notwithstanding (One of which is that that cops accused her of crying at the wrong times, whatever is meant by the wrong times!)....

.... the crying issue won't be addressed and it'll slide into something else.

I was told she had sex on a train.

I was told she didn't keep a clean toilet.

I was told..... blah blah blah.

Can we at least get back to the sleep issue? This has been the problem all along. Throwing mud hoping some will stick.

Somehow Hot Nostril can tell from a couple of moments of video that Amanda didn't sleep the night before. See how it works? Hot Nostril is making what would ordinarily be an innocent comment. But what she is really suggesting is that Amanda was up all night cleaning and freaked out from the experience and fear.

Clever and frankly disgusting. It is Hot Nostril's subliminal message. Hot Nostril can't tell that from that video. None of us can. She certainly doesn't look that way to me. She does seem out of it. But who wouldn't? That has to be the most surreal experience you could have. To come home and find your new roommate murdered and surrounded by two dozen people she doesn't' really know talking seriously in a language you barely understand.