Merged Ukraine erupts in riots and general strike.

[L.Y.S.]

The U.S. saying that it would be better for Ukraine to be backed by U.N. than EU pretty much dealt a blow to the EU deal. Largely because the US recognizes the EU's deal to Ukraine pretty much destroys their economy for the next 10 to 20 years. I doubt the EU deal will gain much steam. This is was a strategic blow. We'll see in the elections coming up in a few weeks.

 

[dudalb]

It is clear that many people here are ok with the re-rise of fascism and radical nationalism on the continent of Europe. Now all they need to do is write my struggle and the vision of EU nationalists will be complete.

And Russia under Putin is as fine a example of a country that is on the verge of going facist and radical Russian Nationalism is on the rise and excouraged by Tsar Vladamir The First.
ANybody who sees the EU ..which,despite it's many flaws(and I am critical of many of it's policies) at least is pro democratic as the main problem instead of Putin's determination to totally dominate Eastern Europe is living in La La Land.

 

[Childlike Empress]

It is clear that many people here are ok with the re-rise of fascism and radical nationalism on the continent of Europe. Now all they need to do is write my struggle and the vision of EU nationalists will be complete.

Isn't it amazing that those are often the same people running around preaching law-and-order and calling peaceful protesters in the USA "Occutards"? Yet here they are applauding rioters who violently occupy government buildings. That's very telling regardless of the ideology of the rioters (who in this case happen to be neo-fascists to a certain degree). But we don't have to read between the lines anyway because even they feel the need to frame their gibberish and in the process give it away by projecting their own agenda onto the perceived enemy: When it's about geopolitical goals, we couldn't care less about "democracy". The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Hilarious and disgusting at the same time.

 

[L.Y.S.]

And Russia under Putin is as fine a example of a country that is on the verge of going facist and radical Russian Nationalism is on the rise and excouraged by Tsar Vladamir The First.
ANybody who sees the EU ..which,despite it's many flaws(and I am critical of many of it's policies) at least is pro democratic as the main problem instead of Putin's determination to totally dominate Eastern Europe is living in La La Land.

Are the vast majority of the opposition in Ukraine nationalists or not? Does the EU support the opposition or not? It's frighteningly simple.

Isn't it amazing that those are often the same people running around preaching law-and-order and calling peaceful protesters in the USA "Occutards"? Yet here they are applauding rioters who violently occupy government buildings. That's very telling regardless of the ideology of the rioters (who in this case happen to be neo-fascists to a certain degree). But we don't have to read between the lines anyway because even they feel the need to frame their gibberish and in the process give it away by projecting their own agenda onto the perceived enemy: When it's about geopolitical goals, we couldn't care less about "democracy". The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Hilarious and disgusting at the same time.

Yes, and the funny thing about it is that most people who take this position are unwilling to see that the vast majority of these rioters are essentially neo-Nazis. That's a bad look for the EU. This is mainly why the US is so reluctant to support these nut jobs. Then these hypocrites want the legitimately elected government to step down instead of waiting for elections to happen and properly oust the current régime. It's amazing.

 

[Klimax]

Allegiations not backed by evidence... and I don't see much but assertions in last posts either.

I linked a reliable post that was not RT news and I remember distinctly that you did not read it. You only read what confirms your bias. The party regions opposition in Ukraine compose mostly of nationalists and fascists. These aren't unbacked allegations. Feel free to find my old post and read it.

Well, you are very good person not to talk about bias, now are you? Irony meters are in danger of overload in this thread.

And evidence is still missing. And if you are that confident in your "source", relink it.

 

[L.Y.S.]

DUDE I'VE LINKED THE ARTICLE ABOUT BANDS OF WESTERN NATIONLISTS WEARING THEIR PRO-NAZI REGIMENT INSIGNIA 3 TIMES!!! I DON'T HAVE TIME FOR DUMB ASSERY.

Learn how to use a search function, SERIOUSLY. You keep not reading stuff, and I'm not going to keep reposting it. It was a seriously good article that proved that the vast majority of anti-government western Ukrainian rioters were nationalists. I don't know what else to say.

ETA:

Why can't Ukrainians just wait for elections to oust the current President? They are seriously only two weeks away.

EETA:

Why can't Ukrainians just vote to peacefully split themselves into east and west? It seems like a good idea. Eastern Ukrainians clearly don't want to merge with the EU, and western Ukrainians clearly don't want to merge with Russia. It's a pragmatic solution if you ask me.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Isn't it amazing that those are often the same people running around preaching law-and-order and calling peaceful protesters in the USA "Occutards"? Yet here they are applauding rioters who violently occupy government buildings. That's very telling regardless of the ideology of the rioters (who in this case happen to be neo-fascists to a certain degree). But we don't have to read between the lines anyway because even they feel the need to frame their gibberish and in the process give it away by projecting their own agenda onto the perceived enemy: When it's about geopolitical goals, we couldn't care less about "democracy". The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Hilarious and disgusting at the same time.

I was about to say the same to you. You keep applauding terrorist acts and other atrocities, but now you suddenly feel you have the moral credit to call protesters out on being too violent... although we all know that if the riots had happened in Israel or the US, you would've come running to give them your total support.

You, pot, kettle, black.

 

[trustbutverify]

I was about to say the same to you. You keep applauding terrorist acts and other atrocities, but now you suddenly feel you have the moral credit to call protesters out on being too violent... although we all know that if the riots had happened in Israel or the US, you would've come running to give them your total support.

You, pot, kettle, black.

Correctamundo.

Not to mention the fact that fans of the Nazi website Veterans Today (The True Voice of the World's Clandestine Community!!) should probably keep their mouths shut concerning their fellow Nazis.

 

[trustbutverify]

DUDE I'VE LINKED THE ARTICLE ABOUT BANDS OF WESTERN NATIONLISTS WEARING THEIR PRO-NAZI REGIMENT INSIGNIA 3 TIMES!!! I DON'T HAVE TIME FOR DUMB ASSERY.

Learn how to use a search function, SERIOUSLY. You keep not reading stuff, and I'm not going to keep reposting it. It was a seriously good article that proved that the vast majority of anti-government western Ukrainian rioters were nationalists. I don't know what else to say.

Are you saying the vast majority of anti-government protesters are pro-Nazi? Or just Ukrainian nationalists- which, I believe, would apply to most of the population?

 

[L.Y.S.]

Are you saying the vast majority of anti-government protesters are pro-Nazi? Or just Ukrainian nationalists- which, I believe, would apply to most of the population?

It is clear that a sizable portion of the western opposition are nationalists in the sense that they are Nazi-sympathizers and xenophobes.

 

[trustbutverify]

It is clear that a sizable portion of the western opposition are nationalists in the sense that they are Nazi-sympathizers and xenophobes.

So you're not referring to "nationalists" (those Ukrainians in favor of maintaining a sovereign Ukraine) but racist, Nazi nationalists. OK.

Is it a "sizable portion", as you claim here, or "the vast majority" as you claimed in your previous post?

 

[L.Y.S.]

So you're not referring to "nationalists" (those Ukrainians in favor of maintaining a sovereign Ukraine) but racist, Nazi nationalists. OK.

Is it a "sizable portion", as you claim here, or "the vast majority" as you claimed in your previous post?

It's mostly Svoboda supporters and their ilk. They make up the vast majority of protestors and open opposition to the party of regions, yes.

 

[L.Y.S.]

These are essentially the bulk of protestors in western Ukraine.

Nationalists are definitely the largest constituency of rioters in western Ukraine right now.


A few excerpts from the article to show westerners the idiots that they are supporting:

It also has revived three slogans originating in the Ukrainian nationalist movement of the 1930s that have become the most popular chants at Euromaidan. Almost all speakers on Independence Square—even boxer-turned-opposition-leader Vitaly Klitschko, who has lived mostly in Germany and has a US residence permit—start and end with the slogan, “Glory to Ukraine!,” to which the crowd responds “To heroes glory!” Two other nationalist call-and-response slogans often heard on the square are “Glory to the nation! Death to enemies!” and “Ukraine above all!”

Despite its leading role at Euromaidan, Svoboda’s political program is at complete odds with the “European values” for which the protestors at Euromaidan are ostensibly agitating. (Admittedly, some of the party’s populist economic program is in fact relatively progressive.) During its time in parliament, the party was best known for introducing a bill to ban abortions, but in its program, it also promises to abolish gun control, “ban the communist ideology,” criminalize “Ukrainophobia,” ban the adoption of Ukrainian children by foreigners and reinstate a “nationality” graph on passports and birth certificates.

Some historians have accused the Ukrainian Insurgent Army of cooperating in the massacres of thousands of Ukrainian Jews during the Nazi occupation, and Tyahnybok even commended the rebels in 2004 for fighting “Russians, Germans, Jewry and other crap.” The Simon Wiesenthal Center put Svoboda at number five on its 2012 list of top anti-semitic slurs, citing Tyahnybok’s “Moscow-Jewish mafia” comment and Miroshnychenko calling Ukrainian-born actress Mila Kunis a “dirty Jewess.”

Even Yury Noyevy, a member of Svoboda’s political council, admitted that the party is only pro-EU because it is anti-Russia.

“The participation of Ukrainian nationalism and Svoboda in the process of EU integration is a means to break our ties with Russia,” Noyevy said.

So pretty much you have a bunch of xenophobe nationalists acting out of hatred towards foreigners, Russians, and Jews. How cliché.


I'll admit that Russia's no better on the front of gay rights, but it appears that the nationalists won't be much better either.

Many Ukrainians do not favor the direction that nationalists are taking the country, but feel that there are no better alternatives.

 

[McHrozni]

These are essentially the bulk of protestors in western Ukraine.

There are no more than 300 people in those photos. Do you have studies that show at least 99% of their supporters stayed at home for their greatest holiday, or will you admit to lying?

McHrozni

 

[Klimax]

First link is to unrelated event, so to assume anything from it for current events like composition of opposition is very weak idea.

Second and third link shows that any event like this will attract extremists. Big surprise, but you need to prove that they constituted majority, which this link doesn't support.

Extremists love such upheaval as it allows them to be seen more then usual and to be heard more then usual and they try to use cause for their ends. Seems that they are bit held still in distance as others know how they can damage them.

One'd need to show they constitute majority and they control it, so far no such thing.

ETA: BTW: Nicely picked quotes...

 

[McHrozni]

A few excerpts from the article to show westerners the idiots that they are supporting:


It also has revived three slogans originating in the Ukrainian nationalist movement of the 1930s that have become the most popular chants at Euromaidan. Almost all speakers on Independence Square—even boxer-turned-opposition-leader Vitaly Klitschko, who has lived mostly in Germany and has a US residence permit—start and end with the slogan, “Glory to Ukraine!,” to which the crowd responds “To heroes glory!” Two other nationalist call-and-response slogans often heard on the square are “Glory to the nation! Death to enemies!” and “Ukraine above all!”

Glory to Ukraine is a very common national slogan in Ukraine, akin to a British political group invoking the monarch (in either context) or a US group invoking freedom. It tells us nothing of the opposition, but demonstrates ignorance and therefore lack of credibility of whomever wrote it.

McHrozni

 

[L.Y.S.]

There are no more than 300 people in those photos.

There are WAY more than three hundred nationalists rioting out in the streets.

Do you have studies that show at least 99% of their supporters stayed at home for their greatest holiday, or will you admit to lying?

McHrozni

Wow, <SNIP>, my articles in the first post had already proven that the vast majority of rioters were western Ukrainian nationalists. Read it or not, but stop wasting my time with stupidity. I have a very limited amount of patience for stupid ****.

Glory to Ukraine is a very common national slogan in Ukraine, akin to a British political group invoking the monarch (in either context) or a US group invoking freedom. It tells us nothing of the opposition, but demonstrates ignorance and therefore lack of credibility of whomever wrote it.

McHrozni

WOW! That's all I can say. I've already GIVEN THE ARTICLE! I can tell you haven't read a damn thing in it. Are "Death to enemies!" and "Ukraine above all!" are common slogans in Britain as well? Read the articles or not, but I've already provided evidence.

Edited by Locknar: 

SNIPed, breach of rule 0; name calling is never civil or polite.

 

[L.Y.S.]

First link is to unrelated event, so to assume anything from it for current events like composition of opposition is very weak idea.

The first article was a visual aid of who you guys were supporting.

Second and third link shows that any event like this will attract extremists. Big surprise, but you need to prove that they constituted majority, which this link doesn't support.

The link states that the vast majority of western Ukrainian participants support the Svoboda party, which is a nationalist party. I don't know what else to say if you can't learn to extrapolate context clues. It also stated that the vast majority of western Ukrainians view an old Nazi regiment as heroes. If that doesn't paint a picture for you I don't know what will. Be stupid if you want to.

Extremists love such upheaval as it allows them to be seen more then usual and to be heard more then usual and they try to use cause for their ends. Seems that they are bit held still in distance as others know how they can damage them.

DUDE! IN THE ARTICLE THE WOMAN STATED THAT UKRAINIANS NOW HAVE TWO UPHILL BATTLES ON THEIR HANDS! SHE SAID THAT UKRAINIANS NOW HAVE TO FIGHT BOTH, "A PRO-RUSSIAN POLICE STATE, AND RADICAL UKRAINIAN NATIONALISTS". AN EXCERPT FROM THE ARTICLE!!!

Progressive activists have “to fight on two fronts, against a regime that supports harmful police violence … and also against extreme nationalism, which is recognized and legitimate on Maidan,” Nikita Kadan, an artist and activist in Kiev, said via Skype during a discussion of nationalism at a Moscow bookstore in December.

Ukrainian progressives DO NOT SUPPORT SVOBODA OR THE PARTY OF REGIONS! Svoboda is the one leading the charge! Many Ukrainians are turned off by its ultra-nationalist stance.

One'd need to show they constitute majority and they control it, so far no such thing.

ETA: BTW: Nicely picked quotes...

Wow, amazing, we're back to square one. You did not read the articles. How surprising? The vast majority of western Ukrainians support a fallen Nazi regiment and it's difficult to tell who are the majority of rioters in western Ukraine? Nationalism is one of the reasons the Soviet Union collapsed. If we can't even start there, I don't know what else to say.

 

[Childlike Empress]

You can also look at the behaviour of Klitschko and that Timoschenko proxy when it comes to the duplicity of their statements depending on if they talk at the Munich Security Conference or to the people on the ground. That tells you that they know where their base is. In addition to what was already mentioned in the Nation article, here's some more, for our dear philosemites from the President of the Ukrainian Jewish Committee (written before it even really escalated):

[...] Ever since the breakthrough success of Svoboda in the 2010 elections and its entrance into Parliament after the 2010 elections, the leaders of Fatherland and UDAR have repeatedly declined entreaties from myself and many other supporters of democracy in Ukraine to break their electoral alliance with Svoboda; apparently seeing that party and its supreme leader, Oleh Tyahnybok [who is seen making the salute above - CE], as essential partners in the coalition to topple Yanukovych. Yet during the last days of December, as momentum slipped away from the demonstrators with the news that Yanukovych had buttressed his political position by accepting a $15 billion loan package from Russian President Vladmiir Putin, Fatherland leader Arseniy Yatsenyuk and UDAR leader Vitali Klitschko must have become acutely aware that the ever-growing profile of Svoboda was tarnishing the claim of the Ukrainian opposition coalition protestors to belong in the camp of modern-day Europe instead of the neo-fascist Europe of 70 years ago. [...]

Yet did nothing. Klitschko didn't even distance himself from the fascist rioters when he was directly asked to do so on the stage of the MSC a good week ago...

 

[McHrozni]

There are WAY more than three hundred nationalists rioting out in the streets.

The article you quoted as evidence disagrees with you for some reason

Wow,<SNIP> , my articles in the first post had already proven that the vast majority of rioters were western Ukrainian nationalists. Read it or not, but stop wasting my time with stupidity. I have a very limited amount of patience for stupid ****.

Edited by Locknar: 

Moderated content SNIPed.

Which articles would that be? The ones you showed there proved there were at least 300 neo-Nazis ready to march in Lviv for Hitlers' birthday, which you immediately asserted as positive proof a vast majority of demonstrators in Ukraine since were neo-Nazis.
Hint: not all nationalists are Nazis.

WOW! That's all I can say. I've already GIVEN THE ARTICLE! I can tell you haven't read a damn thing in it. Are "Death to enemies!" and "Ukraine above all!" are common slogans in Britain as well? Read the articles or not, but I've already provided evidence.

No, but neither is Glory to Britain, or Glory to United States of America in the US. If you don't understand what I've been saying here, you shouldn't be allowed near a keyboard.

McHrozni