Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[HotNostril]

Welcome to the thread....!!

Zero evidence of Rudy in the bathroom?

Rudy himself says he took a towel from the bathroom to "staunch the wounds". He'd just come from Laura's bathroom, so his story goes, but when he sees the blood (in his version) he says he gets a towel from "the bathroom", which is the closest one to Meredith's room, right outside here door - namely, Meredith's/Amanda's bathroom.

So.... please revise your beliefs from, "no evidence". Rudy admits to going into that bathroom. That's how Meredith's blood got in there.

Ummmm Why would I believe him?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

bar none

How did Meredith's blood get into that bathroom? Why is there zero evidence of RG in that bathroom? RG's footprints prove he went straight out the door.
AK footprints in blood ...and it was blood...prove she staged that burglary and proves to me she brought Meredith's blood into that bathroom. I don't believe her ridiculous story of the bathmat boogie...
I believe that is RS's bloody footprint on it.

I do believe that was RS's DNA on the bra clasp. There is no reasonable or plausible explanation for how it got there other than he put it there.
His DNA was only found on it and the cigarette he shared with AK.

HotNostril,

I suggest you go back to the beginning thread and read through all of them. We have been through these points many times. The luminol-positive footprints in the hallway have no DNA and were tested by TMB and found to be negative. No confirmatory test was done. I asked two of the foremost experts on this subject what they thought of these prints. You can find their response on my blog. The footprints are laughably indistinct (the bathmat print is likewise lacking in sufficient detail to attribute to anyone, even Rudy). Attributing them to Amanda or anyone else is absurd. And one of the prints in Amanda's room doesn't have a mark where her second toe is but does have one closer to the rest of the foot. Rudy's prints do not go straight out the door; please get your facts straight.

Rudy went into the bathroom to get towels. If the police had not stored them improperly, there might well be evidence of him on the towels. Raffaele came into contact with Meredith's door. A plausible route of DNA transfer is door-glove-clasp. That having been said, it is doubtful that the the clasp was accidentally stored in a way that made decomposition almost inevitable. Therefore, the hypothesis that the clasp was tampered with cannot be dismissed out of hand. To argue that Raffaele got DNA on the clasp during the assault is itself open to serious question. How would he have done that without also getting DNA on the rest of the bra. Why would he even touch the clasp? How did the DNA from 2-4 other males get onto the clasp. If there is no reasonable explanation than that they took part in the assault, then there are still some criminals in the case who need to be brought to the bar of justice.

 

[Bill Williams]

Ummmm Why would I believe him?

HotNostril... I have no idea what qualifies for proof for you.

I know what does for me. This admission by Rudy Guede was part of a taped Skype call with a friend, the friend of whom is being led by police.

Guede knows his DNA is going to be found there, so he is busy trying to invent an innocent-reason for him being there, and his DNA being found.

He's at a disadvantage, though, because he does not know what the cops have found.

But still, the original statement was, "There is no evidence of Guede in that bathroom." With all due respect, you should perhaps amend that statement somewhat - there IS evidence he went into the bathroom, it's just that you discount it.

That's the point I'm making.

In political parlance, Rudy's Skype call is called a "limited hangout". He knows he cannot argue he was not there, so he tries to limit the damage of that reality.

 

[Samson]

Samson, if you are concerned about damage to a country's reputation, you really should focus on what will happen to Italy's reputation when the blockbuster movie from the perspective of the young innocents at the hands of the PLE is released. It is going to show Mignini, Stefanoni, Comodi, Napoleoni, Giobbi, and Massei in a new light.

Do you think we should show the scene of Mignini railing against unchast girls, and then cut to the scene where 20 year old Amanda is stripped naked and has her vagina measured with a ruler by a prison official as male officers hover nearby?

I just came from a writers' meeting. We are working on the scene where Napoleoni's squad of lady cops slashes the tires of the court-appointed psychologist who recommended to the court that Napoleoni's ex-husband play a meaningfui role in his childrens' lives. Do you have any suggestions for this scene?

I was quoting a poll and comments made by a TJMK poster, in no way do I concern myself about English sensitivities here, quite the opposite. I think a movie should be made, and Sir Peter Jackson, who funded West of Memphis by Amy Berg, be approached. I have said this before.

 

[Caper]

And hotnostril serves up a 50mph fast ball and gets thoroughly rebuked.

 

[Bill Williams]

It seems that one way to keep this in the news in Italy is to ignore that it was a brutal murder.....

This is a link to an Italian site where the question was, "How homely was Meredith?"

http://tv.ilfattoquotidiano.it/2014/02/05/meredith-palombelli-la-vittima-era-bruttina-e-i-2-colpevoli-belli-sempre-e-questa-e-una-colpa/263964/

Anyone offended yet? I am.

"In this story there is one factor that no process can remove. Victim was an ugly girl. The culprit identified was a black guy. The two of them (Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, ed) are always beautiful . " These are the words spoken by Barbara Palombelli during the "Fourth Grade" , the program conducted by Gianluigi Nuzzi on Rete 4, the murder of Meredith Kercher , the British student brutally murdered in Perugia in 2007. The transmission of in-depth journalism, after the close of the appeal trial for the murder of a girl , focuses on the sentencing set for Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. The journalist, host of the program, as always, gave his opinion on the matter, accusing the media of having committed an "unforgivable": " In recent years it has always been drawn to the beauty of the two as a fault .

 

[RandyN]

Heard people in other parts of Europe argue that the US has the death penalty, therefore they cannot ever argue against human rights. I have to also argue that many southern prisons are nothing but horrid and maybe even worse that Italy. We also pretty much know that Texas has put innocent people to death.

I am wondering if it might not just simply be argued that they did not receive a fair trial.

Well firstly the US is not making the argument. A defendant (from Washington State) in an Italian murder trial is.

And according to the ECOHR of which Italy is a signatory member (the US is not ...so what?) Italy is guilty of violation of the human rights of defendants in their courts more than any other member country except for Turkey apparently.

So they already have a well defined record of abuse. Meanwhile, the fact that some US states still have the death penalty in no way changes Italian abuse in its own courts. This would be what USA uses to decide if extradition is in order.

I say no way in hell will Knox ever be sent to Italy, nor will she be detained in jail here in the US simply on the discredited Italian word. (people can actually read the trial records and motivations after all) Proving corrupt abuse in this case is about as tough as deciding if the neighbor lady with 378 cats may just be a little off.

I can understand Europeans efforts to prop up their monetary partner Italy...sure we all get that. It is what makes issues like this political rather than simply legal.

Who buys the most Mercedes? Italy or USA type of thing. Germany may care about that...

I don't. I buy "American".

 

[Bill Williams]

And hotnostril serves up a 50mph fast ball and gets thoroughly rebuked.

Like everyone, he/she is entitled to an opinion.

None of us are entitled to the facts.

 

[RandyN]

I think they are both guilty.

The devil is in the details and theirs NEVER match up.

Few things that I can not reconcile.

The knife. I do believe it had Meredith DNA on it.
RS, in a letter to his father, details ( total and complete lie) how he accidentally pricked Meredith's hand with it in attempt to explain away the existence of her BLOOD.
He also expressed concern when RG was apprehended and feared he would make up stuff about him.
AK, in a phone call to her mother, expressed concern about THAT knife.
AK puts blood on RS's hand "from the fish they had a dinner"

How difficult is it to say, "we stayed in all night"?

The entire story about the water all over the floor & mop... is ridiculous and they can't even get that story straight. AK claims he accidentally spilled water, while RS states it was an issue with the pipe that required him to shut off the water.

The entire morning of discovery is incongruent and makes zero sense. Was she panicked or not? AK can't make up her mind. Claims they attempted to break down Meredith's door yet isn't all freaked out and panicked when the "phone police" came. They were faking and wanted/needed, like so many others, for someone else to discover the body.

How did Meredith's blood get into that bathroom? Why is there zero evidence of RG in that bathroom? RG's footprints prove he went straight out the door.
AK footprints in blood ...and it was blood...prove she staged that burglary and proves to me she brought Meredith's blood into that bathroom. I don't believe her ridiculous story of the bathmat boogie...
I believe that is RS's bloody footprint on it.

I do believe that was RS's DNA on the bra clasp. There is no reasonable or plausible explanation for how it got there other than he put it there.
His DNA was only found on it and the cigarette he shared with AK.

That's for starters....their stories stink. They're liars. They are guilty. IMO.

Michael is that you? Where is that bleach receipt? LOL

Otherwise Hot...feel free to search out all the tired long ago refuted weak points you wish answers for...they are all here. Unless you can get someone here to bite and review your weak as water points...who knows someone may be bored.

But with your certainty of guilt this should be easy for you then...How about a time line that fits facts and proves guilt?

Ill start you off ....at 8:30 PM on 1 Nov 2007 MK was at her friends enjoying the movie The Notebook after eating a meal of pizza followed by dessert of apple crumble...and then???

Lets go...this is easy. Do it!

 

[HotNostril]

HotNostril,



I suggest you go back to the beginning thread and read through all of them. We have been through these points many times. The luminol-positive footprints in the hallway have no DNA and were tested by TMB and found to be negative. No confirmatory test was done. I asked two of the foremost experts on this subject what they thought of these prints. You can find their response on my blog. The footprints are laughably indistinct (the bathmat print is likewise lacking in sufficient detail to attribute to anyone, even Rudy). Attributing them to Amanda or anyone else is absurd. And one of the prints in Amanda's room doesn't have a mark where her second toe is but does have one closer to the rest of the foot. Rudy's prints do not go straight out the door; please get your facts straight.



Rudy went into the bathroom to get towels. If the police had not stored them improperly, there might well be evidence of him on the towels. Raffaele came into contact with Meredith's door. A plausible route of DNA transfer is door-glove-clasp. That having been said, it is doubtful that the the clasp was accidentally stored in a way that made decomposition almost inevitable. Therefore, the hypothesis that the clasp was tampered with cannot be dismissed out of hand. To argue that Raffaele got DNA on the clasp during the assault is itself open to serious question. How would he have done that without also getting DNA on the rest of the bra. Why would he even touch the clasp? How did the DNA from 2-4 other males get onto the clasp. If there is no reasonable explanation than that they took part in the assault, then there are still some criminals in the case who need to be brought to the bar of justice.

Isn't it a bit of a stretch to suggest that Sollecito's DNA was on the door handle of Meredith's door (which incidentally did not contain any evidence), that DNA was transferred to a glove, and that DNA was then transferred to Meredith's clasp? If secondary transfer is very unlikely, what would this be?

The luminol-positive footprints....outside of Meredith's bedroom are meaningless? What other plausible explanation could there be? If I recall correctly... two of those ...outside of the bedroom...were indeed found to be a mix of MK and AK DNA.

It seems to defy logic they were made by anything other than blood when right on the other side of
Meredith's door ...there were vast amounts of it.

 

[Kaosium]

I think they are both guilty.

The devil is in the details and theirs NEVER match up.

Few things that I can not reconcile.

The knife. I do believe it had Meredith DNA on it.

There is no evidence there was ever human cellular material on the knife blade. The area 'B' on the blade was checked and 'debris' was found, not anything human. The knife was tested in numerous locations for blood three times employing different tests and all were negative.

There is no evidence there was anything extracted from where she swabbed the knife. She got a 'too low' result with the Qubit Fluorometer.

In court she claimed the amount was 'a few hundred picograms' which she'd determined through Real Time DNA analysis. Both were lies, she'd not quantified (i.e. how much genetic material) the sample and had not run Real Time DNA. The results she received of 'peaks' at the 20-40 RFU range (the equipment is designed to register 1000-2000 RFUs) are not consistent with anything near a few hundred picograms using the Identifiler kit at 28 cycles, more like 10-25 picograms. That is quite likely picking up lab contamination which is likely to be endemic processing 'samples' that small.

RS, in a letter to his father, details ( total and complete lie) how he accidentally pricked Meredith's hand with it in attempt to explain away the existence of her BLOOD.

Or instead of lying he's searching his mind for how there could possibly be Meredith's DNA on his knife that never left the drawer (during the murder) and came up with something that happened that he thought might be the only explanation at the time.

He also expressed concern when RG was apprehended and feared he would make up stuff about him.

Wouldn't you be if you were wrongly imprisoned and they caught the killer?

AK, in a phone call to her mother, expressed concern about THAT knife.

Of course she's worried! The authorities are telling her that knife has her DNA on it as well as Meredith's! How could she not be concerned?

AK puts blood on RS's hand "from the fish they had a dinner"

So what? Of what possible significance could fish blood be?

How difficult is it to say, "we stayed in all night"?

That's what they said, but the prosecution wanted endless details. It's inevitable that inconsistencies will show up given enough questions about myriad details where one person may have been paying attention to one thing and the other something else. The relating of events will also add 'inconsistencies' as not everyone is as complete or detailed as the other and often express themselves differently.

The entire story about the water all over the floor & mop... is ridiculous and they can't even get that story straight. AK claims he accidentally spilled water, while RS states it was an issue with the pipe that required him to shut off the water.

Here is a good example of that. Can you not see how both accounts could be true given what I posted above? Raffaele did something and the pipe let out water, which to Amanda amounts to Raffaele accidentally spilling water. Raffaele sees it as a failure with the pipe.

The entire morning of discovery is incongruent and makes zero sense. Was she panicked or not? AK can't make up her mind. Claims they attempted to break down Meredith's door yet isn't all freaked out and panicked when the "phone police" came. They were faking and wanted/needed, like so many others, for someone else to discover the body.

People can act differently over the course of time, some times becoming panicked, at other times calming down. Thinking that people have only one setting for a situation that evolves over hours is quite frankly pig ignorant and doesn't lead to that conclusion in any conceivable way.

How did Meredith's blood get into that bathroom?

Rudy left a bloody handprint on Meredith's pillow, how do you think that blood got off?

Why is there zero evidence of RG in that bathroom?

Why didn't Stefanoni do a Y-STR test in that bathroom like she did on other samples? That's how you would find male DNA in a bathroom used almost exclusively by females which could mask a low level transfer. Why didn't she go peeking below the 100 RFU threshold in the bathroom? Why did she refuse to turn over the electronic data files that would allow anyone else to--even refusing that to the independent court experts and defying a judge's order.

Incidentally one use of a bathroom, especially cleaning up, may not leave a detectable transfer. Especially if there are no y-str tests done and you don't go looking for low template DNA.

RG's footprints prove he went straight out the door.

RG's footprints only prove at some point he went to the door. It could have been the last thing he did, covering Meredith and inadvertently stepping in blood that he would track out the door. Or, as the shoeprints are barely visible to begin with and the last is barely existent he may have turned around when he got to the locked door and had to get the keys to open the door from the inside as it was one of those unusual locks (here at least) that requires that.

AK footprints in blood ...and it was blood...prove she staged that burglary and proves to me she brought Meredith's blood into that bathroom.

Then why did they test negative for blood with TMB and why did Stefanoni try to hide that by failing to include those results in her comprehensive forensic report, the RTIGF, then lied about it in court and claimed she only laid down luminol there?

You do realize those luminol hits don't form a trail of any kind, are sometimes bare footprints, other times blobish or 'amorphous' shapes and are not connected, right? They're just spots on the floor, some may be related to the murder, some may not, and pretending that six weeks later after the scene has been trashed beyond recognition by people walking all over that hall and into those room without changing booties there's little chance they've been preserved intact from the time of the murder.

The Polizia Scientifica processed those barely visible shoeprints Rudy left in that same hall (one overlaps) and then wiped them up and continued the rest of their work, using that hall to stage their investigation into the rest of the cottage upstairs.

I don't believe her ridiculous story of the bathmat boogie...

Then don't, it has nothing to do with the murder.

I believe that is RS's bloody footprint on it.

Do the blind test and see which one you pick. Regardless of what you do decide, can you see how the other might fit as well if you make different allowances for the stain being partial and the surface uneven? You could probably 'match' that print to a fair number of males and perhaps some females.

I do believe that was RS's DNA on the bra clasp. There is no reasonable or plausible explanation for how it got there other than he put it there.

Trashed crime scene by forensic technicians who were done with their work and then let to sit for six weeks in a house with a broken window and in a room with the door open and the lock off.

Do you find it interesting that Stefanoni lied about that as well and tried to pretend it was just a mixture of Meredith and Raffaele and the other alleles were 'stutter?' Then when they tried to re-test it they found the clasp had deteriorated and was untestable due to being stored in a manner that would ensure that?

His DNA was only found on it and the cigarette he shared with AK.

Do you think that means there was no other DNA of his in that cottage? This isn't Star Trek, they can't just do a tricorder scan. They test where they think they see evidence from the murder and swab there. They found nothing of either Raffaele or Amanda anywhere near that body, they did not find the bra clasp near the body or where the bra was but under a rug and trash by the desk that most definitely wasn't there when the door was opened. The bra clasp was not the only item they tested either, and as you know Raffaele was not only at the discovery he tried to see into that door and force it. Given enough items it is hardly that surprising they found contamination after the room was trashed and left for six weeks for stuff to blow around, if it didn't happen while they were going in and out of that room, possibly kicking or stepping on it. That desk is just to the right as you open the door.

How do you think that bra clasp got there? Ever wonder how it could have gotten under the rug like that?

That's for starters....their stories stink. They're liars. They are guilty. IMO.

Everything Raffaele, Amanda and Patrick were arrested for turned out to be bunk. They found the guy who'd left all that evidence in her room and the rest of the cottage and even the prosecution experts in the Massei trial had to admit there was nothing forensically that required more than one attacker. They found copious evidence of one person and absolutely nothing in that room of the two others on trial until they went back for garbage evidence from a trashed crime scene they lied about and to this day hide the data needed to analyze it.

This would be basically an unprecedented murder, literally a crime so far outside known human behavior no one has found anything remotely like it. It's a Manson murder with no Manson, no cultish indoctrination, no conceivable motive and nothing else that would explain why two people with no history of violence conspired to murder someone neither had shown reason to dislike with someone they'd barely met.

The crime is solved, Rudy Guede did it, no amount of parsing statements for 'inconsistencies' or highly dubious evidence away from the murder room processed by police who hid exculpatory evidence and lied about what they did makes Amanda and Raffale guilty of anything.

There is however a great deal of evidence the cops screwed the pooch and wouldn't admit to it. No matter how stupid their story is or how much evidence there is of misconduct some people cannot accept that they didn't solve the crime of the century by stuffing it up and arresting the wrong people.

I on the other hand am more skeptical.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

the forensic science community is clear on this point

Isn't it a bit of a stretch to suggest that Sollecito's DNA was on the door handle of Meredith's door (which incidentally did not contain any evidence), that DNA was transferred to a glove, and that DNA was then transferred to Meredith's clasp? If secondary transfer is very unlikely, what would this be?

The luminol-positive footprints....outside of Meredith's bedroom are meaningless? What other plausible explanation could there be? If I recall correctly... two of those ...outside of the bedroom...were indeed found to be a mix of MK and AK DNA.

It seems to defy logic they were made by anything other than blood when right on the other side of
Meredith's door ...there were vast amounts of it.

No need to limit ourselves to the handle IMO. Raffaele's prints were on the door, probably because he tried to open it just as Amanda described. Secondary transfer and even tertiary transfer are documented in the DNA forensic literature (again, you can find some discussion of this phenomenon at my blog). It defies the consensus wisdom of the forensic science community to call them blood. They have divided up blood tests into presumptive tests, such as luminol, and confirmatory tests, which use antibodies to show definitely that something is or is not human blood. In some jurisdictions luminol evidence is not even allowed into the courtroom without additional support. It is up to the prosecution to perform confirmatory tests (which are amazing sensitive these days), not to shift the burden of proof to the defense, by saying what else could they be. If it were blood, why did the TMB not react, and why was Meredith's DNA not found in all of them?

There has been much confusion about the luminol footprints vs. a luminol shoe print in the hall. An unidentified shoe print did have mixed DNA but the footprints did not. IIRC both Massei and Hellmann described this incorrectly.

 

[Bill Williams]

Isn't it a bit of a stretch to suggest that Sollecito's DNA was on the door handle of Meredith's door (which incidentally did not contain any evidence), that DNA was transferred to a glove, and that DNA was then transferred to Meredith's clasp? If secondary transfer is very unlikely, what would this be?

The bra-clasp lay for 46 days on Meredith's floor uncollected. Forty-six days later, after the other "evidence" against Raffaele fell apart, Stefanoni and her Scientific Police returned to the cottage, and filmed themselves collecting further evidence.

The clasp was at a different place on the floor.... with an obviously dirty glove, Stephanoni picked up the clasp, and turned it over hand to hand.

At cross examination of her at the 2009 trial, this video was shown to her. Bongiorno asked Stefanoni to describe what was going on. At one point it cannot really be seen if Stefanoni handles the hook on the clasp with her obviously dirty glove, so she's asked, "Did you touch the hook?"

Incredibly, she could neither confirm nor deny she'd handled the hook. On the video she then replaced the hook on the floor, where it was photographed as if that's how it was found, and collected.

On that alone, in any courtroom other than Massei's, the bra-clasp would have been thrown out.

Can you guess why?

 

[RWVBWL]

How did Meredith's blood get into that bathroom? Why is there zero evidence of RG in that bathroom?

Zero evidence of Rudy in the bathroom?

Rudy himself says he took a towel from the bathroom to "staunch the wounds". He'd just come from Laura's bathroom, so his story goes, but when he sees the blood (in his version) he says he gets a towel from "the bathroom", which is the closest one to Meredith's room, right outside here door - namely, Meredith's/Amanda's bathroom.

So.... please revise your beliefs from, "no evidence". Rudy admits to going into that bathroom. That's how Meredith's blood got in there.

From Guede's German Prison Diary:
"I tried to stop the blood. I took a towel from her bathroom,
but in less than a minute it was all soaked. I took another,
but it was no use."

and this

"I got up and went to Meredith's room. She was all
covered with blood. Her neck looked like a river, she
was asking for help. I kneeled next to her and tried to
close the wound, I never saw so much blood. I went to
the bathroom, took a towel, and it was soaked. I took
another one, but darn, nothing. So much blood was
flowing that the wound wasn't even visible."


Rudy went into that bathroom at least 2 times, if not more...
It's pretty easy HotNostril, to see how Meredith's blood was found in the bathroom, don'tcha think?

Here's a photo to help give you a clue:


See that bloody towel on the floor next to where Meredith lies covered?
No, not the 1 on the bed, it's the 1 on the floor near the nightstand.

RG's footprints prove he went straight out the door.

Right...

Then how did RG's DNA get on Meredith's purse or her sweatshirt sleeve cuff?
Or better yet, how did RG's Nike sneaker, imprinted in Meredith's blood,
come to be found on the pillow found under Miss Kercher's naked body?

 

[RWVBWL]

Question for ya all:
I seem to recall something about Rudy using 3 towels.
Is that correct? Are there 2 bloody towels under the duvet next to Meredith?

That towel on Meredith's bed in the photograph above looks too clean to me.
What do ya think: Did RG use it to dry himself off after rinsing Meredith's blood off him before he split?

 

[Dan O.]

RG's footprints prove he went straight out the door.

You're new here aren't you.


ETA:

RG's footprints only prove at some point he went to the door. It could have been the last thing he did, covering Meredith and inadvertently stepping in blood that he would track out the door. Or, as the shoeprints are barely visible to begin with and the last is barely existent he may have turned around when he got to the locked door and had to get the keys to open the door from the inside as it was one of those unusual locks (here at least) that requires that.

Where were you when I covered this? Rudy went to H.

 

[Kaosium]

I don't believe proving the fact they are both monumental liars isn't psychological crap.

Why don't the lies about evidence and the hiding of data by the police and prosecution bother you when they're trying to pretend two people from their first bungled arrest who they (originally...) had no evidence of in the murder room conspired with the one guy who just happened to be an athletic burglar?

There was evidence of a clean up, and staging, in my opinion. The entire room and every speck wasn't tested. It never is. There is more than enough to convict.

The murder is already explained by the capture of Rudy Guede. False positives and contamination for two others who were at the discovery, one of whom lived there does not a conspiracy make.

Where do you think there was a clean up? I mean exactly, on the pictures and/or the videos. Not having evidence of the ones condemned is not evidence of a clean-up. Caking the floor with luminol and finding disconnected hits is especially not evidence of a clean up, the opposite in fact. So where do you think something was cleaned up?

One small spot of DNA on the clasp is enough. It puts him in Meredith's bedroom. His bloody foot imprint puts him in that bedroom and the bathroom.

Even if the bra clasp is not contamination or fraud it doesn't put him in that room. Raffaele was a regular visitor to the cottage the week before the murder, that drying rack that takes up half the hall on the way to Amanda's room and her bathroom could cause Raffaele to brush by it, or the bra to be put a place Raffaele brushed past.

Why is there absolutely nothing else of either of them in that room when there's so much of Guede? How did they fail to step in any blood or on Rudy's shoeprints?

How did AK and RS get blood on their feet?

Now you're asking the right kinds of questions! There's not only very little possibility of those luminol hits being blood, there's absolutely no indication from the source of the blood--the murder room--that they got into it. You do realize those prints can't be matched to anyone either? Just that they're 'compatible' as (at least some) would be with many females including the other three who lived there. Others are just shapes, some vaguely resembling feet, others not at all.

TOD can't be pinpointed by digestion, at best, it's merely a window.

After about 3 hours that window is a the far right of a Gaussian curve and about to hit rock bottom, if it hasn't already.

 

[Bill Williams]

RG's footprints prove he went straight out the door.

Now that's a "proof" I'd like to see. Can you please expand on this, or is this something you wish to assert, with no proof?

Rudy's footprints prove that at one point he went out the door, true. But once again, he admits to going to get the towels from Meredith's bathroom, where Meredith's blood is found.

But can you at the very least offer some level of "proof" for your assertion?

 

[RandyN]

Desert Fox,

You have a marvelous gift for understatement. It's late, and I will probably miss a few. Being denied a lawyer until minutes before going before Matteini, applying precautionary detention as opposed to less stringent methods, being held in solitary before even being bound for trial, having the police release information prior to the trial (and false information at that), allowing one of Amanda's statements to be heard by the jury because it was part of the other trial, hiding the TMB results, not releasing the electronic data files, allowing Guede to appear at the first appeal while someone else read "his" letter, failing to allow the defense their requests in the second appeal trial, the CSC in effect demanding a conviction, ...I'm sure I missed a few.

I like these too...

1. Stefanoni going into the detention hearing and lying about the "ample" quantity of sample 36b

2. No evidence against RS at all in the same hearing. Perhaps if he had had the opportunity to speak with his attorney before this hearing they would would have realized the shoe prints could not have matched and then the judge would have no reason to hold him at all.

3. ISC ruling multiple attackers in Guede case must be considered as one reason for overturning first appeal decision is just whacky.

4. Prosecution denying discovery items related to DNA during Massei trial.

5. " " " " " " " " Hellamnn appeal

6. An unquestionably unreasonable number of sub-related cases filed against almost everyone who appeared to favor the defense....including lawyers, the defendant, parents, news reporters, newspapers, blogs, GOOGLE, USA editors etc

7. Willful destruction of evidence critical to the defense...computer hard drives, interrogation tapes, missing DNA files, controls and once again failure to release complete scientific discovery items.

8. Concocted non scientific with no peer review or repeatability evidence 36b for example and the bra clasp storage problem. What is it called when you make up stuff and present it as if legitimate but no one ever confirms it? In fact real scientists have already called it illegitimate and sloppy nonsense.

9. And then the scientist fails to provide control data although they try to insert fake control data into the court record twice. That seems wrong. Unfair one might conclude.

10. Hitting suspects during interrogation.

11. Failure to provide a speedy trial

12. Failure to provide fair trial

13 Torture the defendant by telling her she tested positive for HIV.

14. Failure to notify American Consulate upon arrest.

15. Using any statement spoken or written made before the requirement for an attorney is met. If you cant waive your rights to an attorney then you simply Can Not make anything spontaneous that is usable except on Mars and in Perugia Italy apparently.

This list could continue for pages actually. Lies of Mignini for example...notary, calling useless witness reliable when nothing shows they are any such thing, in fact the opposite.

Nothing will come of any of it though since this all takes place in a lawless country where lies are OK and even expected inside the courts. Joke? You wish.

 

[RWVBWL]

Doctor Stefanoni! Haven't you ever heard of TWEEZERS?

HotNostril,

I suggest you go back to the beginning thread and read through all of them. We have been through these points many times. The luminol-positive footprints in the hallway have no DNA and were tested by TMB and found to be negative. No confirmatory test was done. I asked two of the foremost experts on this subject what they thought of these prints. You can find their response on my blog. The footprints are laughably indistinct (the bathmat print is likewise lacking in sufficient detail to attribute to anyone, even Rudy). Attributing them to Amanda or anyone else is absurd. And one of the prints in Amanda's room doesn't have a mark where her second toe is but does have one closer to the rest of the foot. Rudy's prints do not go straight out the door; please get your facts straight.

Rudy went into the bathroom to get towels. If the police had not stored them improperly, there might well be evidence of him on the towels. Raffaele came into contact with Meredith's door. A plausible route of DNA transfer is door-glove-clasp. That having been said, it is doubtful that the the clasp was accidentally stored in a way that made decomposition almost inevitable. Therefore, the hypothesis that the clasp was tampered with cannot be dismissed out of hand. To argue that Raffaele got DNA on the clasp during the assault is itself open to serious question. How would he have done that without also getting DNA on the rest of the bra. Why would he even touch the clasp? How did the DNA from 2-4 other males get onto the clasp. If there is no reasonable explanation than that they took part in the assault, then there are still some criminals in the case who need to be brought to the bar of justice.

Hi Professor Halkides,
You know, it still boggles my mind that Dr. Stefanoni drove 2 hours and 4 minutes from Rome to Perugia,

https://www.google.com/#q=how+long+does+it+take+to+drive+from+rome+to+perugia

just to collect that Bra Clasp herself so that she could then also test it too!

If I recall correctly,
Dr. Stefanoni had to get special permission to work on this brutal murder case, right?

Weird how the Doctor, after driving so far,
would take a chance on contaminating this crucial piece of evidence:

by picking up the Bra Clasp with dirty gloves,

instead of using New, Sterile Tweezers

and New, Sterile Gloves!

Now whom does the other DNA on the Bra Clasp belong too?
Hmmmm....