Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Desert Fox]

I'm not familiar with the SGU board, what does that stand for?

Skeptics Guide to the Universe. . . .There is a thread on this forum dedicated to them. They have often had Randi as a guest and seem to be good friends with him. Except for Rebecca Watson, they go to TAM every year as well.

 

[Kaosium]

Skeptics Guide to the Universe. . . .There is a thread on this forum dedicated to them. They have often had Randi as a guest and seem to be good friends with him. Except for Rebecca Watson, they go to TAM every year as well.

Ah, OK, as per my edit I figured it out and looked for a thread, finding only a short dead one from 2009. Is there another thread?

 

[RandyN]

Isn't this a bit similar to the Hellmann court announcing the only thing certain is that Meredith was murdered. Hellmann also did an after verdict interview saying something like he didn't know if they were guilty or not but it wasn't proven in court.

If it can be shown that Nencini held Raf's not testifying against him, that would present an interesting problem as to whether or not both Raf and Amanda would have been the victims of prejudice.

Well actually I believe it was Zanetti who made the "all we know" comment and it was before the trial or during the first day and not after the end. That said to me that he was telling the world that this appeal would examine everything over as if De novo.

As for this latest judges statements? If Italy starts sanctioning their judges for doing and saying stupid things then who will they have left to try cases? The review seems like a political move to shut the defense up. Nothing more.

 

[RandyN]

It is disappointing to see the uphill battle faced if this poll is true, imported from TJMK

"yes…I was heartened to see in a latest poll that, in the UK, only 13 out of a hundred believe AK is innocent.
(according to this poll, 51% think guilty, with the rest ‘don’t know’).

British people do not take kindly to being taken for a ride, by ‘spinning’ etc. The ordinary Brit has a strong sense of justice/injustice - it’s a kind of tradition. (“we are tolerant, but don’t push us too far”)

I think there would be fury here if extradition were to be requested and declined. It would definitely damage UK/US relations."

Yawn....

 

[HotNostril]

I think they are both guilty.

The devil is in the details and theirs NEVER match up.

Few things that I can not reconcile.

The knife. I do believe it had Meredith DNA on it.
RS, in a letter to his father, details ( total and complete lie) how he accidentally pricked Meredith's hand with it in attempt to explain away the existence of her BLOOD.
He also expressed concern when RG was apprehended and feared he would make up stuff about him.
AK, in a phone call to her mother, expressed concern about THAT knife.
AK puts blood on RS's hand "from the fish they had a dinner"

How difficult is it to say, "we stayed in all night"?

The entire story about the water all over the floor & mop... is ridiculous and they can't even get that story straight. AK claims he accidentally spilled water, while RS states it was an issue with the pipe that required him to shut off the water.

The entire morning of discovery is incongruent and makes zero sense. Was she panicked or not? AK can't make up her mind. Claims they attempted to break down Meredith's door yet isn't all freaked out and panicked when the "phone police" came. They were faking and wanted/needed, like so many others, for someone else to discover the body.

How did Meredith's blood get into that bathroom? Why is there zero evidence of RG in that bathroom? RG's footprints prove he went straight out the door.
AK footprints in blood ...and it was blood...prove she staged that burglary and proves to me she brought Meredith's blood into that bathroom. I don't believe her ridiculous story of the bathmat boogie...
I believe that is RS's bloody footprint on it.

I do believe that was RS's DNA on the bra clasp. There is no reasonable or plausible explanation for how it got there other than he put it there.
His DNA was only found on it and the cigarette he shared with AK.

That's for starters....their stories stink. They're liars. They are guilty. IMO.

 

[GWCarver]

I think they are both guilty.

The devil is in the details and theirs NEVER match up.

Few things that I can not reconcile.

The knife. I do believe it had Meredith DNA on it.
RS, in a letter to his father, details ( total and complete lie) how he accidentally pricked Meredith's hand with it in attempt to explain away the existence of her BLOOD.
He also expressed concern when RG was apprehended and feared he would make up stuff about him.
AK, in a phone call to her mother, expressed concern about THAT knife.
AK puts blood on RS's hand "from the fish they had a dinner"

How difficult is it to say, "we stayed in all night"?

The entire story about the water all over the floor & mop... is ridiculous and they can't even get that story straight. AK claims he accidentally spilled water, while RS states it was an issue with the pipe that required him to shut off the water.

The entire morning of discovery is incongruent and makes zero sense. Was she panicked or not? AK can't make up her mind. Claims they attempted to break down Meredith's door yet isn't all freaked out and panicked when the "phone police" came. They were faking and wanted/needed, like so many others, for someone else to discover the body.

How did Meredith's blood get into that bathroom? Why is there zero evidence of RG in that bathroom? RG's footprints prove he went straight out the door.
AK footprints in blood ...and it was blood...prove she staged that burglary and proves to me she brought Meredith's blood into that bathroom. I don't believe her ridiculous story of the bathmat boogie...
I believe that is RS's bloody footprint on it.

I do believe that was RS's DNA on the bra clasp. There is no reasonable or plausible explanation for how it got there other than he put it there.
His DNA was only found on it and the cigarette he shared with AK.

That's for starters....their stories stink. They're liars. They are guilty. IMO.

The best way to ensure someone else would find the body would have been to not go there until someone else found the body. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[AmyStrange]

-

I think they are both guilty.

The devil is in the details and theirs NEVER match up.

Few things that I can not reconcile.

The knife. I do believe it had Meredith DNA on it.
RS, in a letter to his father, details ( total and complete lie) how he accidentally pricked Meredith's hand with it in attempt to explain away the existence of her BLOOD. He also expressed concern when RG was apprehended and feared he would make up stuff about him.
AK, in a phone call to her mother, expressed concern about THAT knife.
AK puts blood on RS's hand "from the fish they had a dinner"

How difficult is it to say, "we stayed in all night"?

The entire story about the water all over the floor & mop... is ridiculous and they can't even get that story straight. AK claims he accidentally spilled water, while RS states it was an issue with the pipe that required him to shut off the water.

The entire morning of discovery is incongruent and makes zero sense. Was she panicked or not? AK can't make up her mind. Claims they attempted to break down Meredith's door yet isn't all freaked out and panicked when the "phone police" came. They were faking and wanted/needed, like so many others, for someone else to discover the body.

How did Meredith's blood get into that bathroom? Why is there zero evidence of RG in that bathroom? RG's footprints prove he went straight out the door. AK footprints in blood ...and it was blood...prove she staged that burglary and proves to me she brought Meredith's blood into that bathroom. I don't believe her ridiculous story of the bathmat boogie...
I believe that is RS's bloody footprint on it.

I do believe that was RS's DNA on the bra clasp. There is no reasonable or plausible explanation for how it got there other than he put it there.
His DNA was only found on it and the cigarette he shared with AK.

That's for starters....their stories stink. They're liars. They are guilty. IMO.

-

You seem like a nice guy, but most of your message is speculative psychological crap, and can support both innocence and guilt, depending on your perspective.

The highlighted part is an interesting question though, but so is, why is there zero evidence of Amanda and Raffaele in Meredith's room except one small spot on a bra which has since rusted? Whatever you can come up with to explain away Amanda and Raffaele, you can also use to explain away the lack of Rudy's DNA.

Plus, the evidence about the duodenum, Meredith's last try to her mother, and Rudy's Skype call makes the TOD more probably around 9:30 and less probable that it happened later.

You have to convince me of the TOD first, before I begin to accept speculation that can be explained away by either side, depending upon your perspective, but that's me,

d

-

 

[HotNostril]

The best way to ensure someone else would find the body would have been to not go there until someone else found the body. Wouldn't you agree?

Yeah, but for some strange reason, murderers do it all the time. I think part of them get off on seeing other peoples reactions...shrug..
But Knox had an added incentive. She wanted to make sure evidence pointing away from her was discovered. Why else would she make darn sure not to flush that toilet? Then go out of her way to make sure investigators didn't miss it.
She wanted to ensure they bought into her staging.

 

[RandyN]

If they worked for an IT department wouldn't the Boss next response be "You are fired?"

Yes well everywhere except for in Italy. There he or she likely got a medal and was promoted.

There was a poster from years ago (cant recall the name now...something about church scams, church lady or ???) anyway. He understood the computer systems and Encase quite well and IIRC he concluded that some sort of aux power was used and hooked up backwards ....4 times apparently.

They were obviously clueless because I recall at some point the tech (Dr so and so I suppose) actually took one hard drive apart. This was on AK computer. This certainly put the screws to it although the Toshiba factory claimed an ability to repair it. The defense requested, offered to pay, and was denied by Massei.

I guess the tech thought he could wiggle to platters and get them spinning...who knows??? Dolt! Or perhaps he could read 1 and 0's in his minds eye?

What is most notable IMHO is that given this horrible screw up with the computers the prosecutor Mignini shamelessly used that mess to make contentions (like MK and AK were enemies) when photos on these hard drives certainly could have proved otherwise...pics of chocolate festival and sunning together and who knows what else... a set up? No. But Mignini understands how to use unverifiable innuendo and meanwhile the courts shamelessly allow his false "proof" to be entered and considered as if real. This is a fatal flaw in Italian courts...no standards or concern on quality or proof of evidence.

They never even put Knox in water to see if she floated when a lawyer called her a witch and no proof was required that she was Lucerfina either.
This actual courtroom behavior and the courts tolerance of it proves that they don't take themselves seriously...they in essence allow themselves to be made foolish and silly looking. And so they must be so...what other conclusion can be made?

Illegitimate nincompoops.

 

[GWCarver]

Yeah, but for some strange reason, murderers do it all the time. I think part of them get off on seeing other peoples reactions...shrug..
But Knox had an added incentive. She wanted to make sure evidence pointing away from her was discovered. Why else would she make darn sure not to flush that toilet? Then go out of her way to make sure investigators didn't miss it.
She wanted to ensure they bought into her staging.

If she would have flushed the toilet, the latest prosecutor wouldn't have had that dump to build his whole case around. Hard to believe, isn't it?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

let me count the ways

I am wondering if it might not just simply be argued that they did not receive a fair trial.

Desert Fox,

You have a marvelous gift for understatement. It's late, and I will probably miss a few. Being denied a lawyer until minutes before going before Matteini, applying precautionary detention as opposed to less stringent methods, being held in solitary before even being bound for trial, having the police release information prior to the trial (and false information at that), allowing one of Amanda's statements to be heard by the jury because it was part of the other trial, hiding the TMB results, not releasing the electronic data files, allowing Guede to appear at the first appeal while someone else read "his" letter, failing to allow the defense their requests in the second appeal trial, the CSC in effect demanding a conviction, ...I'm sure I missed a few.

 

[HotNostril]

-


-

You seem like a nice guy, but most of your message is speculative psychological crap, and can support both innocence and guilt, depending on your perspective.

The highlighted part is an interesting question though, but so is, why is there zero evidence of Amanda and Raffaele in Meredith's room except one small spot on a bra which has since rusted?

Plus, the evidence about the duodenum, Meredith's last try to her mother, and Rudy's Skype call makes the TOD more probably around 9:30 and less probable that it happened later.

You have to convince me of the TOD first, before I begin to accept speculation that can be explained away by either side, depending upon your perspective, but that's me,

d

-

I don't believe proving the fact they are both monumental liars isn't psychological crap.

There was evidence of a clean up, and staging, in my opinion. The entire room and every speck wasn't tested. It never is. There is more than enough to convict.

One small spot of DNA on the clasp is enough. It puts him in Meredith's bedroom. His bloody foot imprint puts him in that bedroom and the bathroom.

How did AK and RS get blood on their feet?

TOD can't be pinpointed by digestion, at best, it's merely a window.

 

[Caper]

I don't believe proving the fact they are both monumental liars isn't psychological crap.

There was evidence of a clean up, and staging, in my opinion. The entire room and every speck wasn't tested. It never is. There is more than enough to convict.

One small spot of DNA on the clasp is enough. It puts him in Meredith's bedroom. His bloody foot imprint puts him in that bedroom and the bathroom.

How did AK and RS get blood on their feet?

TOD can't be pinpointed by digestion, at best, it's merely a window.

Someone smarter then me will shred this.

 

[RandyN]

Experienced police dispatchers often get calls reporting accidents and crimes. They deal hourly with issues where they are required to decide if they need to dispatch an ambulance, a police officer, or a police response team. Dispatchers know that initial callers don't always know the extent of the incident - can't possibly know in the case of just uncovering a burglary in someone else's house. That is why experienced / competent dispatchers follow up with a question or two or three. "Are you sure nothing is stolen?". "Is the occupant of the room there? Has he/she checked to see if anything is stolen?".

In this case the dispatcher didn't ask Raffaele more details. That shows me the police didn't think Raffaele's statement was lacking - it did not warrant more attention. Raffaele's statement of what he knew at the time to be correct (later proved to be incorrect) is only significant if you want it to be. Suspect him of being guilty, then you can assign guilty motivations where none previously existed.

Sure exactly...which is why the Italians used almost a full year before filing charges in this case.

Hey Soouce they could try out thousands of different bits and move things around at will...burn up this hard drive, recalibrate the machine to get something, lose an interrogation tape...any damned thing. Meanwhile, using distractions like "poor Lumumba" to keep eyes off the real trick. Legal sleight of hand...except these were terrible magicians and we all saw the tricks...except for the whole of Italy apparently.

 

[Matthew Best]

I don't believe proving the fact they are both monumental liars isn't psychological crap.

I agree (but I'm not sure you meant to say that).

 

[Matthew Best]

Someone smarter then me will shred this.

It's been shredded over and over again. I wonder if anyone can be bothered to do it yet again.

 

[Caper]

It's been shredded over and over again. I wonder if anyone can be bothered to do it yet again.

You're right.... I could... But I would have to research it all again.

HotNostril. You do it. Shred your own miserable post.... Be a skeptic and learn.

 

[Strozzi]

Samson, if you are concerned about damage to a country's reputation, you really should focus on what will happen to Italy's reputation when the blockbuster movie from the perspective of the young innocents at the hands of the PLE is released. It is going to show Mignini, Stefanoni, Comodi, Napoleoni, Giobbi, and Massei in a new light.

Do you think we should show the scene of Mignini railing against unchast young women and then cut to the scene where 20 year old Amanda is stripped naked and a prison official measured her vagina with a ruler while male officers hover nearby? It really happened, so I think it should be included. Won't you agree?

I just came from a writers' meeting. We are working on the scene where Napoleoni's squad of lady cops slashes the tires of the court-appointed psychologist who recommended to the court that Napoleoni's ex-husband play a meaningfui role in his childrens' lives. Do you have any suggestions to add?

 

[Bill Williams]

How did Meredith's blood get into that bathroom? Why is there zero evidence of RG in that bathroom? RG's footprints prove he went straight out the door. AK footprints in blood ...and it was blood...prove she staged that burglary and proves to me she brought Meredith's blood into that bathroom. I don't believe her ridiculous story of the bathmat boogie...
I believe that is RS's bloody footprint on it.

Welcome to the thread....!!

Zero evidence of Rudy in the bathroom?

Rudy himself says he took a towel from the bathroom to "staunch the wounds". He'd just come from Laura's bathroom, so his story goes, but when he sees the blood (in his version) he says he gets a towel from "the bathroom", which is the closest one to Meredith's room, right outside here door - namely, Meredith's/Amanda's bathroom.

So.... please revise your beliefs from, "no evidence". Rudy admits to going into that bathroom. That's how Meredith's blood got in there.

 

[AmyStrange]

I don't believe proving the fact they are both monumental liars isn't psychological crap. There was evidence of a clean up, and staging, in my opinion. The entire room and every speck wasn't tested. It never is. There is more than enough to convict.

One small spot of DNA on the clasp is enough. It puts him in Meredith's bedroom. His bloody foot imprint puts him in that bedroom and the bathroom.

How did AK and RS get blood on their feet?

TOD can't be pinpointed by digestion, at best, it's merely a window.

-

But saying lying is proof that they can kill someone IS speculative psychological crap, but that's just my opinion.

What about Rudy's Skype lie where he said Meredith screamed at 9:20? Doesn't that also prove he's also a murderer, or is he telling the truth?

You can use the same reason Rudy's DNA wasn't in the bathroom is because they didn't test everything.

Unless Meredith's bra was nailed to the room wall, that bra and Meredith left that room and could have been attached to Raffaele's DNA via contamination or a simple transfer from meeting Raffaele, shaking his hand, and immediately adjusting her bra clasp.

Or, he tried the door to Meredith's room to see if it was locked, left DNA, and when the tech's went to go get the bra touched the doorknob with Raffaele's DNA on it. Oh and don't forget they left some of the evidence in the refrigerator freezer in the apartment.

TOD (duodenum, Meredith's try to her Mom, and Rudy's Skype call, all together) is what nails it for me,

d

-