Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[RandyN]

If the police had a strong case against Amanda and Raffaele, how do you explain what happened in the interrogation? If the police have a strong case, they should have no problem providing lawyers, taping the interrogation and officially informing people they are suspects. If the police have a strong case they should not have to rely on coerced confessions because a coerced confession is manufactured evidence. The police should not have to resort to manufacturing evidence if they have a strong case.

Every action the police and prosecutor took only confirms that they have no respect for rule of law, or truth, or honesty. In fact the opposite is apparent.

Who hits girls? In what world is this acceptable? Italy...sure apparently. And all of Italian Euro partners as well. Germany, Greece, etc... you are being made fools of and you will judged by your association with such illogical criminals. Hope you realize that.

 

[anglolawyer]

Like all the other "slam dunks" which proved not to be so?

Sure, legal proceedings are inherently unpredictable. I know that, probably a tad better than you. My question remains. Why are her prospects not very good given the clear guidance of the court that access to advice is a fundamental aspect of the right to a fair trial?

Again, this is only one of several strong lines of attack on the process so far.

 

[RoseMontague]

After another Knox conviction (and sentencing) are the delusional leaders of the FOA so frantic that they are now reduced to quibbling over senseless semantics ?
Pardon me, but I find this about as logical as Bill Clinton's quibbling about the definition of the word is when he needed to distract attention from his sexual abuse of an intern.

Surely you recall that one of Knox's main justification for her multi and varied and conflicting alibis was that she was under the influence of heavy drug use

To paraphrase another Clinton, '...What difference does it make...?'
What difference does it make if Knox was stoned on MJ or drunk on alcohol

What difference does it make ?????............
unless you simply cannot accept fact that Knox is a twice convicted murderer

It seems even the Italian media is starting to question Nencini, with his comments about the process coming under fire.

http://translate.google.com/transla...sentenza-meredith-ora-spunta-il-caso-nencini/

 

[anglolawyer]

Oh, it wasn't just "someone": it was the Chief of Police of Perugia, Arturo de Felice!

He said (in English translation): "Initially the American gave a version of events we knew was not correct. She buckled and made an admission of facts we knew were correct and from that we were able to bring them in. They all participated but had different roles."

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/i-heard-her-screaming-519420#.Uu4gz86Hflw

(Note also how much of Knox's statement (the "confession/accusation") to the police had been leaked to the media by the time of this press report - this report appeared a mere TWO DAYS after the interrogation, and before the arraignment process had even begun. Another stinking abuse of office from either the police or the prosecutors (or both).

I know it's not regarded as of equal importance but at the same press conference De Felice also said they found messages from Patrick on her phone fixing a meeting - source Michael Moore, Daily Telegraph. This revealing lie has not received enough attention,

 

[RandyN]

Like all the other "slam dunks" which proved not to be so?

What slam dunk? The honest people here understood that Italy would do and say anything in spite of facts, science and overwhelming evidence of corrupt judicial process.

Only a fool would ignore and more so consider legitimate the ISC decision to overturn back in March 2013. Have you read that motivation? Personally I think someone should file a case against these dim wits. They present a indefensible argument and in fact prove themselves to be a mockery of their own system of laws...if that is how they wish to pretend to classify whatever they do as being called. I call it corrupt... not so thinly veiled farce.

 

[Matthew Best]

The relevant point is that that Italian Supreme Court is made up of child-rape apologists, degenerates who think it's understandable and acceptable for a 60-year-old man to gratify his lust with a pre-teen girl.

Which at this point does not surprise me in the least. It goes hand-in-hand with their disgraceful stance on the Kercher murder and the fact that their "honorary president" is a full-bore 9-11 truther. Andrea Vogt can screech about brave magistrates risking their lives against the mafia, but the facts speak for themselves. The Italian justice system is a refuge for fanatics, and it is a cesspool of depravity.

This was a great post, Charlie.

 

[RoseMontague]

Thanks! Do you happen to have an Italian source?

The most interesting quote I found from DeFelice is...

De Felice goes on "I have to compliment our men and our women (the interpreters) that in 4 days and 4 nights, with professionalism and integrity, have resolved the case. In these days, we have felt the weight, the pressure of the people of the city, and of the mass media. Everybody wanted an immediate and certain response. It seems to me we have responded, almost immediately".

This is in a pdf of a very early but pretty good summary of the case from an Italian news source that I will attach.

That quote is backed up by another italian source here...

http://translate.google.com/transla...f&sa=N&hl=en&biw=1024&bih=649&tbs=lr:lang_1it

ETA, that pdf is too large to attach here, if you are a member of IA you can see on this thread...

http://www.injusticeanywhereforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=1854

 

[icerat]

The most interesting quote I found from DeFelice is...



This is in a pdf of a very early but pretty good summary of the case from an Italian news source that I will attach.

That quote is backed up by another italian source here...

Thanks, that source doesn't have anything quite resembling the quote in question though. Another english source had -

Police detained all three after Knox allegedly broke down and confessed. One officer said: "The story kept changing and didn't square. In the end she just collapsed. What she told us helped bring the case to a close but it was only a matter of time.

 

[Dan O.]

They seem to work fine from my original post...must be the post count changed..try pulling from here...

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6429428&postcount=1234567890

The problem is how you copy the link. The forum shows an abrevatiion of long links so they fit on one line. If you copy the display text instead of the link itself you get a link that doesn't work.

The "postcount" doesn't matter. It's only a hint for what gets displayed as the post number when displaying a single post (see what I did by folowing the link above).

 

[RandyN]

Come on, lying and denial are second nature to these people. The only lying I ever seen Mach strongly object to has been what he perceives as Amanda's. His experience of her is as someone who is ever manipulative and always trying to put something over on other people. He is so adamant about it that to him it essentially proves the case for guilt. It's okay for Italians to lie. It's not okay when American college girls do it.

Sure it is! The proof is the Italian gullibility of the ship captain tripping and falling into a life boat. Who is so immature to even try a fib like this? Any Italian in Italy perhaps? Apparently.

Yummi/Mach is a good bellwether of Italians. Foolish ignorance of logical reality all while arguing against the same standard in any defendant?

Dishonest officials have a special place reserved in the 8th circle of Dantes hell. Dante was an Italian and he knew his people quite well apparently. Why lie? Why not do this honestly?

Why does the rest of the Euro Union ignore its dysfunctional partner? Germany seemed logical before this. Now they seem they might wish distance from the odd ball partner but they are clearly in bed with these wackos. Germany...control your partner. Defend or speak up against. You are being judged by the company you keep!

 

[RoseMontague]

The problem is how you copy the link. The forum shows an abrevatiion of long links so they fit on one line. If you copy the display text instead of the link itself you get a link that doesn't work.

The "postcount" doesn't matter. It's only a hint for what gets displayed as the post number when displaying a single post (see what I did by folowing the link above).

Thanks!!!

 

[Diocletus]

Nencini's post-verdict remarks - if reported correctly - appear to show the root cause of the convictions. They also appear to have massive relevance to any upcoming ECHR application.

What Nencini appears to have said is along these lines: the SC tells us that two other people were involved in the murder (in addition to Guede). We (Nencini's court) accept this unconditionally. Our job was therefore to establish whether these two other people were Knox and Sollecito, or whether there was credible evidence of two other people being involved. If we had decided that two other people (i.e. other than Knox and Sollecito) were the two other assailants, we would have had to show compelling evidence to support that hypothesis. We had no such evidence. We could only therefore conclude that the only reasonable conclusion is that two other assailants were Knox and Sollecito.

If that's a correct interpretation of Nencini's remarks, then it looks like exceptionally strong grounds for a successful ECHR application right there. And I believe that this actually was the guiding oversight upon which Nencini and his court operated. It's exactly how I and others interpreted the SC's instructions to the new appellate court: if you're going to find that Knox and Sollecito were not involved, you'd better have a damn strong set of evidence that others (i.e. not Knox and Sollecito) were involved, since we already "know" that the murder was the work of multiple attackers.

It ought to go without saying that the reliance upon any "finding" of multiple attackers from a totally separate trial process is an egregious abuse of Knox's/Sollecito's right to a fair trial. It also ought to go without saying that this multiple-assailant "finding" in Guede's trial process was fundamentally flawed, since all parties had a vested interest in finding for multiple assailants, meaning that the possibility of a sole assailant was never properly tested and examined.

In addition, it appears highly likely that the defence teams would have actually damaged their case significantly in the eyes of Nencini's court by arguing for a sole attacker (Guede): if Nencini's court had already decided, via the SC ruling, that there were multiple assailants, then it almost certainly would have viewed all defence "sole-assailant" arguments as invalid on their faces. It sounds like Nencini somehow expected the defence teams to say something like: "The two other assailants were not Knox or Sollecito, and here's evidence that instead they were Mr X and Mr Y". I suspect therefore that the defence arguments - correct in fact - for Guede as sole assailant not only fell on deaf ears (which would be bad enough), but also probably served to destroy the defence's credibility in Nencini's eyes.

To me, it seems abundantly clear that this prior "finding" of multiple assailants, which appears to have been a cornerstone of the Nencini appeal, constitutes immediate and strong grounds for an ECHR application regarding the right to a fair trial. I think there are also multiple other grounds for application to the ECHR, but I think that the multiple-assailant issue is perhaps the most significant and most serious one of all.

I think Nencini knows this. I think that he's just going to say that he did what he was told and throw the issue right back to the ISC to fix, since they made the mess. But he's still a coward.

 

[RandyN]

That was an 11 year old. He was a 60 year old Social worker. There is such a thing called "age of consent". An 11 year old NEVER has the requisite maturity to consent to have sex with a 60 year. She may have been the agressor, she may be sexually aware. It doesn't matter. He is a 60 year old with the age and maturity to know that it is wrong.

I really am amazed that you would defend this atrocious decision...regardless of how you might feel about the Kercher case. What is wrong with you? Seriously? Can't you just say the court was wrong in that decision but that has no bearing on the Kercher case?

Or do you actually agree with the decision?

It is not something wrong with him. Not that we could discuss that here anyway. His argument OTOH tells us all we need to know about the depravity and backward nature of the progress on the Italian culture in general.

Anyone who defends this indefensible position (60 year old pedophile) in any manner at all is not someone who has advanced much past if at all beyond Neanderthals..and that may even be unfair to the extinct species since we have no way of knowing if they agreed with child rape.

It is remains clear from the Italian SC rulings in addition to Yummi/Mach confirmation by his acceptance and defense of this criminal aberration that Italy is stuck in a moral morass.

Pretty sure cave men understood that sex with 11 year olds was wrong and love was never a part of the equation. Italy do you really want Yummi/Mach/ISC speaking for you? Honestly you are looking bad.

Germany? Are you listening to your partners?

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Can we please lay off the Italy-bashing? Yes, the recent ISC decision was atrocious. Yes, other recent decisions have been atrocious. So too have been multiple botched court outcomes in Australia, and in the USA, and in Canada and in the UK.

None of us get to throw stones as far as I'm concerned. The recent attacks on Italy are ugly, verge on racism and add nothing of value to the conversation.

 

[Diocletus]

Well if it's a murder investigation, the instance tends to prevail.

Lol. So to put it another way, someone suspected of being an accomplice or accessory after the fact has no right to counsel. That's wrong.

Anyway, all of the facts used to arrest her for murder were known to the cops before she signed the 1:45 statement.

The cops broke the law.

 

[RandyN]

I think Nencini knows this. I think that he's just going to say that he did what he was told and throw the issue right back to the ISC to fix, since they made the mess. But he's still a coward.

That would make an end to a rather long list of coward corrupt judges. Including Hellmann who tried his damnedest to save Italian face in spite of overwhelming facts to the contrary.

Shave a tiger and the stripes are still there. Same with lying Italians. Where is the one honest Italian? No one? Partners?

Go ahead stay in bed with the devil. No one will notice...gulp.

 

[RandyN]

]Can we please lay off the Italy-bashing? [/HILITE]Yes, the recent ISC decision was atrocious. Yes, other recent decisions have been atrocious. So too have been multiple botched court outcomes in Australia, and in the USA, and in Canada and in the UK.

None of us get to throw stones as far as I'm concerned. The recent attacks on Italy are ugly, verge on racism and add nothing of value to the conversation.

NO!

Italians own the ISC. Italians are guilty of accepting a 60 year old pervert for raping a 11 year old. But please feel free to present a case for Italians ignoring this abhorrent behavior.

News articles? Mass protests in the streets? Anything?

Look when pigs pretend to be human and you wish to defend their right to do so...feel free. Silently pretending that unacceptable behavior is not happening is not a correct response at this point.

ISC hell...what about Mattini, Massei...even Hellmanns perverted convolution?

Sure lots of evil in the world...no matter. To not place blame where it belongs (that would be the silent sheeple of Italy BTW) is shortsighted and apologetic much like Englands Chamberlain hope that Hitler was going to keep his promises..."Peace in Our Time"

Really? Sorry....wake up! Its been 6 years. 6 years of abusive process and a country that seems to be ignorant or uncaring about truth or honesty or even the morals about sex with a 11 year old. Why would you wish to to speak out against this? ( or rather remain silent which seems to be your point)

Please I'm confused. In fact any partner of Italy should also suffer the consequences of the foolishness and corrupt acts of the law of the land in Italy. I disagree that attacking Italy is pointless. Rather there is no point hiding their behavior or pretending it is acceptable.

Its shameful and there are numerous examples of a disinterested low principled rot in the whole society. I defend my position by the lack of protest of a 60 year old being given consideration for love in regards to the rape of a 11 year old girl. Please feel free to defends the Italian reaction.

I say they are morally deficient.

Now list the cases where a whole country like OZ or USA etc get behind a farce as clear as the two I have laid out...RS/Ak and 60 yr old pervert? We can ignore the Scazzi, earthquake scientists, and that clumsy ship captain.

Cite the politicians demanding investigations. The newspapers doing an investigation (really how hard would that be in this matter...be honest) Anything?

How quickly did the 60 year old disappear from the news? Huh? Oh OK. Justin Beaver was a distraction in the news.

 

[LondonJohn]

Thanks, that source doesn't have anything quite resembling the quote in question though. Another english source had -

Police detained all three after Knox allegedly broke down and confessed. One officer said: "The story kept changing and didn't square. In the end she just collapsed. What she told us helped bring the case to a close but it was only a matter of time.

I don't know whether De Felice made the "buckled" quote in English, or whether he said it in Italian and it was then translated into English.

However, what I DO know is that it is hugely unlikely that a national newspaper would invent (or even falsely embellish) a directly-attributed quote made by a named individual in a high position of authority. They simply have too much to lose from doing so - not only in terms of legal action, but also in terms of future relationships with authority institutions (in this case, the Italian State Police). I therefore tend to strongly believe that De Felice actually did say these words or their direct Italian equivalents.

Newspapers invent quotes sometimes, but only if they are put into the mouths of relatively powerless (and usually demonised) people, and where the invented quotes do not make any potentially-libellous accusations. But neither of these applies to the De Felice quote. He really said it.

 

[Welshman]

Sorry but I am confused by this. I have all along contended that the Italian courts and police have been corrupt. They and the witnesses they presented have lied and been caught lying. The "experts" Stefanoni for example were caught lying and trying to introduce false documents into the record.

How much judicial corruption does it take in order to require an investigation? Prosecutors are lying, witnesses are lying, judges are lying. Meanwhile, the SC makes rulings and they are side stepped and even they ignore that. What am I missing here?

As I have said all along. The Italians are corrupt, shameless liars. I am not prejudiced or even making things up. These are irrefutable facts. They will say and do anything to confirm a conviction of innocent persons when they have no evidence and in fact there is a great deal of evidence that the prosecutor and police lied and created and also hid critical evidence in this case!

Witnesses have been allowed to lie in court without sanction. The prosecution has been caught trying to introduce false documents into the record...who knows what did they not get caught sneaking in?

These are not honorable people and the courts are a joke. They make themselves a joke by allowing scandalous behavior in the court and yet provide no sanction against such behavior...which has to mean they condone it and accept being made a mockery of.

This case proves that beyond all doubt! The Italians are willing to reveal to the world that they consider their courts to be only a joke. And the courts allow themselves to be made a joke by the behavior they allow to to go unchallenged inside their doors. Shameful corrupt dimwits.

Please feel free to present an argument that I am wrong about this. I will gladly debate the facts of this case with anyone.

Meanwhile, I contend the SC acted illegally when overturning the first appeal decision. They never ruled on errors of law, rather they decided to return the case based on evidence...something not in their remand. That makes them criminals. No surprise.

The ECOHR finds Italian courts to be chronic violators against world standard human rights. This happens in non democratic countries regularly.

Italy has no clue what a democracy is! They are a pretend Democracy. The people cant get off their asses to protest a 60 year old pedophile freed by the ISC because there may have been love between a 60 year old and a 11 year old mentally challenged girl that he was treating???? Are Italians retarded?

Apparently that is unquestionably answered as yes! Yes they are! Who is so foolish to ignore these suspicious facts? A whole country apparently.

Put Raffaele Sollecito in jail them...you stupid stupid people you. Knox is staying here and she will get a fair review of your "facts" which are a joke BTW! Do you ever look in the mirror? You should...cuz you look stupid! Dumb illogical people!

Italy is dragging the European union down with its 16th century witch hunts. How is that going to work out for you Germany et al? Proud of your partners? You should be ashamed. Partners with criminals makes you criminals equally. Or are you missing that?

Since the kangaroo verdict the haters have come back to gloat. The haters accuse Amanda of lying but slavishly defend corrupt prosecutors who released lies to the media and lied in court.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

This an article from Sky News.

Sky News view on extradition

• Legal Tussles Between Italy And US
Updated: 2:03pm UK, Friday 31 January 2014
By Sky News US Team

Amanda Knox risks extradition to Italy after her conviction for the murder of Meredith Kercher.

Before her, other legal disputes involving US citizens accused of crimes in Italy have made headlines - and occasionally irked relations between the two allies.

These are some of the most high-profile cases:

:: In 1998, a US Marine jet sliced a cable supporting a gondola at a ski resort in the Italian Alps, killing 20 people. The jet was flying fast and low.

Many Italians wanted the pilot and crew tried in Italy, though Nato rules gave jurisdiction to the US military.

The pilot faced a court martial in the US and was acquitted of negligent homicide charges, outraging Italians.

• :: Twenty-six CIA and US government employees were tried and convicted in absentia in Italy for the 2003 kidnapping of an Egyptian cleric suspected of recruiting terrorists in Milan.

It was a notorious case in the "extraordinary rendition" practice.

The defendants included former CIA base chief in Milan Robert Seldon Lady.

One of them, a US Air Force colonel, was pardoned last year on the grounds that it was unprecedented to try an officer of a Nato country for acts committed in Italy.

Seldon Lady has also requested a pardon.

:: Mario Lozano, an American soldier, was ordered to stand trial in Italy in connection with the shooting death of a top Italian intelligence agent, Nicola Calipari, in Iraq in 2005.

• Mr Calipari was hailed as a hero in his home country as he had just secured the release of an Italian journalist who had been kidnapped in Baghdad.

Mr Lozano shot at the car carrying Mr Calipari and the journalist, saying the vehicle had failed to slow down or to respond to warning shots.

The circumstances were disputed and the case soured relations between Italy and the US.
His trial in absentia opened in Rome, but then a higher court ruled Italy had no jurisdiction.