Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[anglolawyer]

Actually, the ECHR is not capable of affecting the judicial findings in the merits. Even if there was a theoretical violation of one specific right in one point of the proceedings (but there wasn't any) this does not translate automatically into a prejudice about the fairness of the whole proceedings.
As for the ECHR in detail on the point of suspect's right to legal counsel, I can only urge you to study the ECHR jurisprudence in depth. A discussion on the ppoint could be interesting if based on actual jurisprudence.

I have posted case law here before now to the effect that the right to legal counsel at the investigative stage is part of the right to a fair trial. The ECHR is capable of ruling that a conviction has not been arrived at by fair means. In this case the unfairness directly affected the course, conduct and outcome.

I saw you replied to Rose. but not me, asking about 'evidence' and 'charges'. You should address this question to yourself. It was you who said she was strongly suspected when she arrived for questioning. I already set out the evidence: it is the same evidence that, viewed osmotically, makes such a compelling case: mops, bathmat boogie, staged burglary, phone call anomalies, weird behaviour, duvet over body (ergo female assailant), clear evidence of multiple attackers, no forced entry, inconsistencies, purchase of underwear, doing the splits and more.

As for 'charges' what are you talking about? Murder, faked burglary, theft of phones - what's the problem?

Again, drilling down into this crucial period further: why was Raffaele called in late on the 5th? What was put to him was that he could not be sure she had stayed at his place the whole night. Why would the cops be pursuing that line of enquiry unless they suspected her of involvement and him of covering for her?

Anyway, thanks for dropping the silly paperwork argument. That will not wash anywhere outside the loony forums. The ECHR will certainly not be detained by it. Do you agree Mignini is lying when claiming they were not suspects?

 

[pilot padron]

Interesting observations from a person very close to Knox for a few years

'She is the Ice Maiden': Amanda Knox has reinvented herself as a teary American TV star but she was cold and unemotional when in an Italian jail, says prison guard

Angela Antonietti - a favourite guard of Knox's at Capanne prison, Perugia
Claims her charge never cried or showed remorse during her time inside
Would 'sing and dance around cell' in day, and 'sleep like a baby' at night
Amanda Knox made a defiant appearance on ABC's Good Morning America
Refused to return to Italy after being found guilty again of murder
Could face detention in US federal prison while contesting extradition
Spoke of her shock at the verdict and her fears for Raffaele Sollecito

By Amanda Williams

PUBLISHED: 07:30 EST, 1 February 2014 | UPDATED: 12:40 EST, 1 February 2014



Amanda Knox is a brilliant actress and a secret 'Ice Maiden' who has reinvented herself as a warm compassionate human being, according to a prison guard who watched over her in jail.

Angela Antonietti, a favourite guard of Knox's at Capanne prison, near Perugia, has revealed that her charge never cried or showed remorse during her time inside.

Hours after an Italian court convicted her for a second time of killing British student Meredith Kercher in 2007, the 26-year-old made an emotional – but defiant – U.S. TV appearance insisting her innocence.

But Ms Antonietti has labeled her tears nothing more than an act and said Knox 'never, ever' talked of her 'friend', Miss Kercher.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ian-jail-says-prison-guard.html#ixzz2s65xX4aO




Oh, but of course... this must be just another "Hater"
And of course, we cannot ever believe anything that the Daily Mail says about the case.

But at least it is refreshing to be able read something from the other side on this Forum.

And even more refreshing to be able to discount yet from another close source the dismal delusional drumbeat here about what great friends Knox and Meredith always were

 

[GreyFox]

She's got another hell of a story to tell, only this one can reflect her growing knowledge of how common her experience of unlawful interrogation was, and how irreversible the damage from that kind of practice can be and often is.

She's become one of those thoughtful, articulate, passionate advocates who are informed by virtue of being accidentally dragged into a hellish situation.

I would think a book that combines her own story with those of others wrongfully convicted would be not just a strong argument on her own behalf but also useful to the public in general. What happened to her could happen to any of us, anywhere.

A movie would be better. Only put all the details in it that are missing from the book. Whats she got to lose. 28 years may as well be 50 . At least she will finally get a fair fight. IMO

A whole family watches the movie as opposed to one person reading a book. Educate a group rather than an individual.

 

[Grinder]

1. An alibi (in the Italian law) is a defensive argument (it can be proven, not proven, or false). It is a positive argument, theoretically falsifiable, not a place nor a testimony. An argument that is put forward by the defence, not by other witnesses.

2. Independently from point 1. and from defence arguments, a testimony about someone being elsewhere can be exculpatory evidence (work as kind of "alibi", even if it's not an alibi but evidence ex aliunde). However, it may be also not be. If the drunk man said that he doesn't remember anything about that night and a witness places him at a bar, that may be useful evidence. But if the allegedly drunk man puts forward a completely different recollection of events and is basically sure about it, this means the drunk man is lying. Depending on the details of the case, it is possible that this even has implications against the suspect rather than in his favour.
So it may well depend on what the drunk man says, as well as on the degree of reliability of the witness, and on the context of the details of the case, or on a combination and interaction between all these three elements.

The kids were chided for not being able to remember details. If Curatolo saw them from 9:30 to nearly midnight there is no way they were involved in the murder. If you wish to call it something besides an alibi, fine.

Curatolo makes it clear that he saw them and that they did not leave. It is obvious that he didn't see them at all, but if the PGP insist on keeping him it is obvious he gives them evidence that they were not involved.

Dealer's choice, keep him and give them what we would call an alibi or reject him and move on.

 

[GreyFox]

Whats your cup of tea ?

'She is the Ice Maiden': Amanda Knox has reinvented herself as a teary American TV star but she was cold and unemotional when in an Italian jail, says prison guard

Angela Antonietti - a favourite guard of Knox's at Capanne prison, Perugia
Claims her charge never cried or showed remorse during her time inside
Would 'sing and dance around cell' in day, and 'sleep like a baby' at night
Amanda Knox made a defiant appearance on ABC's Good Morning America
Refused to return to Italy after being found guilty again of murder
Could face detention in US federal prison while contesting extradition
Spoke of her shock at the verdict and her fears for Raffaele Sollecito

By Amanda Williams

PUBLISHED: 07:30 EST, 1 February 2014 | UPDATED: 12:40 EST, 1 February 2014



Amanda Knox is a brilliant actress and a secret 'Ice Maiden' who has reinvented herself as a warm compassionate human being, according to a prison guard who watched over her in jail.

Angela Antonietti, a favourite guard of Knox's at Capanne prison, near Perugia, has revealed that her charge never cried or showed remorse during her time inside.

Hours after an Italian court convicted her for a second time of killing British student Meredith Kercher in 2007, the 26-year-old made an emotional – but defiant – U.S. TV appearance insisting her innocence.

But Ms Antonietti has labeled her tears nothing more than an act and said Knox 'never, ever' talked of her 'friend', Miss Kercher.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ian-jail-says-prison-guard.html#ixzz2s65xX4aO




Oh, but of course... this must be just another "Hater"
And of course, we cannot ever believe anything that the Daily Mail says about the case.

But at least it is refreshing to be able read something from the other side on this Forum.

And even more refreshing to be able to discount yet from another close source the dismal delusional drumbeat here about what great friends Knox and Meredith always were

Oh ...you kids and your imaginations. Is she an ice queen, or sex demon , or pot smoking tramp??? I suppose it's your fantasy. She can be whatever you need her to be.
How about rich spoiled american white girl too. Isnt that what your really after ? Which of these do you hate her for the most ?

 

[Grinder]

I see obvious problems with the double-jeopardy argument and I don't think it will be the main basis for fighting an extradition request.

I note this from the NY Times:

Under the bilateral treaty, the Italians are required to provide American officials with information that gives “a reasonable basis” to believe that Ms. Knox committed the crime.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/01/u...-italy-killing-vows-to-fight-extradition.html

The information in this case consists of the DNA evidence, testimony from people like Curatolo and Nara, and Amanda's statements. A US court will have to examine that to decide if it is "a reasonable basis." If court experts request the electronic data that supports the DNA work, it won't do to say it is buried in a filing cabinet, or they weren't clear in their request. If Curatolo's testimony gives Amanda and Raffaele an alibi for the entire time frame of the murder, it won't count toward "a reasonable basis" for conviction. If the autopsy suggests a time of death around 9 pm, Nara's scream testimony won't eclipse that.

Facts will matter, and the Italian system will not control the process so facts are swept under the rug.

Reasonable basis I fear is just the results of the trial. Perhaps HB can provide examples of cases that were retried here before extradition.

This will be settled politically rather than in the courts. My guess at this time is a deal where she serves time here.

 

[Poppy1016]

'She is the Ice Maiden': Amanda Knox has reinvented herself as a teary American TV star but she was cold and unemotional when in an Italian jail, says prison guard

Angela Antonietti - a favourite guard of Knox's at Capanne prison, Perugia
Claims her charge never cried or showed remorse during her time inside
Would 'sing and dance around cell' in day, and 'sleep like a baby' at night
Amanda Knox made a defiant appearance on ABC's Good Morning America
Refused to return to Italy after being found guilty again of murder
Could face detention in US federal prison while contesting extradition
Spoke of her shock at the verdict and her fears for Raffaele Sollecito

By Amanda Williams

PUBLISHED: 07:30 EST, 1 February 2014 | UPDATED: 12:40 EST, 1 February 2014



Amanda Knox is a brilliant actress and a secret 'Ice Maiden' who has reinvented herself as a warm compassionate human being, according to a prison guard who watched over her in jail.

Angela Antonietti, a favourite guard of Knox's at Capanne prison, near Perugia, has revealed that her charge never cried or showed remorse during her time inside.

Hours after an Italian court convicted her for a second time of killing British student Meredith Kercher in 2007, the 26-year-old made an emotional – but defiant – U.S. TV appearance insisting her innocence.

But Ms Antonietti has labeled her tears nothing more than an act and said Knox 'never, ever' talked of her 'friend', Miss Kercher.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ian-jail-says-prison-guard.html#ixzz2s65xX4aO




Oh, but of course... this must be just another "Hater"
And of course, we cannot ever believe anything that the Daily Mail says about the case.

But at least it is refreshing to be able read something from the other side on this Forum.

And even more refreshing to be able to discount yet from another close source the dismal delusional drumbeat here about what great friends Knox and Meredith always were

If you wish to see refreshing guilter BS , may I suggest you try .net or .org ? Those hateful sites are full of refreshing guilter nonsense.

 

[yimyammer]

Is it at all possible that the Supreme Court only wanted the issues of Alessi and the knife testing addressed by the Florence court so that it could make a final not guilty decision? Perhaps they had given orders to uphold the guilty verdict until these issues were addressed, and if these issues were answered favorably to AK and RS that THEY would give the not guilty verdict, not Florence. Thus they would put and end to the case. Just curious.

given the history of this case, I find this to be incredibly wishful thinking. 3 of 4 trials have not gone in their favor. I don't see how anyone can expect anything to change going forward, barring some new revelation that clearly exonerates them

 

[snook1]

Oh, but of course... this must be just another "Hater"
And of course, we cannot ever believe anything that the Daily Mail says about the case.

But at least it is refreshing to be able read something from the other side on this Forum.

And even more refreshing to be able to discount yet from another close source the dismal delusional drumbeat here about what great friends Knox and Meredith always were

Stint, you're alive! I see not much has changed in your demeanour! Knox is innocent, Sollecito is innocent and you know it.

Your pal,
Donnie.

 

[Vibio]

Is she an ice queen, or sex demon , or pot smoking tramp???

All of those terms pale in comparison to what she actually now is: a convicted murderer

 

[Dan O.]

The adventures of Foxy Knoxy seems to be the gift that keeps on giving: seven mega threads.

Can't you count. This is thread number 8 in the continuing series. Stay tuned for more.

 

[snook1]

All of those terms pale in comparison to what she actually now is: a convicted murderer

Wrong, under Italian law, she's still not convicted.

 

[Strawberry]

All of those terms pale in comparison to what she actually now is: a convicted murderer

There have been plenty of innocent people landed with the label convicted murderer - Knox and Sollecito, (remember him?), aren't the first and sadly won't be the last.

 

[Grinder]

A local magistrate can issue the warrant but the extradition hearing will be heard by a US Court judge and that in Western Washington is the Western District Court.

From my understanding, Italy requests extradition. The State Department then seeks an arrest warrant in the appropriate Federal jurisdiction. NOT a State or Municipal Court Judge. But a Federal Court and in Western Washington that means the Western District Court in Seattle at 700 Stewart.

I'm glad you know the address of the Federal Courthouse.

Read this:

any judge of a court of record of general jurisdiction of any State, may, upon complaint made under oath, charging any person found within his jurisdiction, with having committed within the jurisdiction of any such foreign government any of the crimes provided for by such treaty or convention, or provided for under section 3181 (b), issue his warrant for the apprehension of the person so charged, that he may be brought before such justice, judge, or magistrate judge, to the end that the evidence of criminality may be heard and considered. ​

Any judge of general jurisdiction of any State may issue the warrant and hear the evidence of criminality.

Such a judge would be found at 516 3rd Ave, Seattle, WA in the King County Courthouse.

 

[Bob001]

All of those terms pale in comparison to what she actually now is: a student unjustly convicted of murderer

FTFY.

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

Stint, you're alive! I see not much has changed in your demeanour! Knox is innocent, Sollecito is innocent and you know it.

Your pal,
Donnie.

(we really need a "like" button!)

 

[acbytesla]

I'm glad you know the address of the Federal Courthouse.

Read this:

any judge of a court of record of general jurisdiction of any State, may, upon complaint made under oath, charging any person found within his jurisdiction, with having committed within the jurisdiction of any such foreign government any of the crimes provided for by such treaty or convention, or provided for under section 3181 (b), issue his warrant for the apprehension of the person so charged, that he may be brought before such justice, judge, or magistrate judge, to the end that the evidence of criminality may be heard and considered. ​

Any judge of general jurisdiction of any State may issue the warrant and hear the evidence of criminality.

Such a judge would be found at 516 3rd Ave, Seattle, WA in the King County Courthouse.

I have read it, but I know as a matter of procedure that it will be turned over to the Feds. That the State and the local municipalities who might arrest Amanda, will still transport her to the holding facility at the Western District Court house and the extradition hearing will take place at the US District (Western) Court, not a State or Municipal court.

 

[Grinder]

'She is the Ice Maiden': Amanda Knox has reinvented herself as a teary American TV star but she was cold and unemotional when in an Italian jail, says prison guard

Angela Antonietti - a favourite guard of Knox's at Capanne prison, Perugia
Claims her charge never cried or showed remorse during her time inside
Would 'sing and dance around cell' in day, and 'sleep like a baby' at night
Amanda Knox made a defiant appearance on ABC's Good Morning America
Refused to return to Italy after being found guilty again of murder
Could face detention in US federal prison while contesting extradition
Spoke of her shock at the verdict and her fears for Raffaele Sollecito

By Amanda Williams

PUBLISHED: 07:30 EST, 1 February 2014 | UPDATED: 12:40 EST, 1 February 2014

I too thought you had expired.

If you'd like reinforcement of the story read the first one this jailer was featured in a couple of years ago.

Perhaps you'd like to explain what she should have shown remorse about.

God forbid that you would discuss actual issues to do with the case. Perhaps you could explain why the police were sure Patrick was involved before Amanda made her statement and why they didn't confiscate his knives and test them. Probably not cause you've got nothing.

 

[acbytesla]

'She is the Ice Maiden': Amanda Knox has reinvented herself as a teary American TV star but she was cold and unemotional when in an Italian jail, says prison guard

Angela Antonietti - a favourite guard of Knox's at Capanne prison, Perugia
Claims her charge never cried or showed remorse during her time inside
Would 'sing and dance around cell' in day, and 'sleep like a baby' at night
Amanda Knox made a defiant appearance on ABC's Good Morning America
Refused to return to Italy after being found guilty again of murder
Could face detention in US federal prison while contesting extradition
Spoke of her shock at the verdict and her fears for Raffaele Sollecito

By Amanda Williams

PUBLISHED: 07:30 EST, 1 February 2014 | UPDATED: 12:40 EST, 1 February 2014



Amanda Knox is a brilliant actress and a secret 'Ice Maiden' who has reinvented herself as a warm compassionate human being, according to a prison guard who watched over her in jail.

Angela Antonietti, a favourite guard of Knox's at Capanne prison, near Perugia, has revealed that her charge never cried or showed remorse during her time inside.

Hours after an Italian court convicted her for a second time of killing British student Meredith Kercher in 2007, the 26-year-old made an emotional – but defiant – U.S. TV appearance insisting her innocence.

But Ms Antonietti has labeled her tears nothing more than an act and said Knox 'never, ever' talked of her 'friend', Miss Kercher.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ian-jail-says-prison-guard.html#ixzz2s65xX4aO




Oh, but of course... this must be just another "Hater"
And of course, we cannot ever believe anything that the Daily Mail says about the case.

But at least it is refreshing to be able read something from the other side on this Forum.

And even more refreshing to be able to discount yet from another close source the dismal delusional drumbeat here about what great friends Knox and Meredith always were

No, it might not be a hater but definitely a publicity hound.
Would you really expect a guard to know a prisoner all that well? Did she have her eyes on Amanda 24x7 with maybe hundreds of other prisoners to watch over at the same time?

Seriously? Why don't you ask the priest that she became friends with at Campanne or the prisoner from South America that she became good friends with?

This is more demonizing press to justify such a horrible persecution.

 

[Grinder]

I have read it, but I know as a matter of procedure that it will be turned over to the Feds. That the State and the local municipalities who might arrest Amanda, will still transport her to the holding facility at the Western District Court house and the extradition hearing will take place at the US District Court, not a State or Municipal court.

Since it could make quite a difference, would you provide something besides assurances of your knowledge?

It may well transpire that it is all done by Federal judges but that doesn't seem to be a requirement of the system.