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Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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No evidence Curatolo was lying and not even a remotely substantial reasons to consider that plausible.

Good I am glad we agree then...so RS and AK were in the park positively from 9:27/9:28 until Midnight. The night before the aliens or whatever appeared in white suits the next day and maybe there are discos and disco buses.

But the point remains is that you agree Curtolo is telling the truth about these two being in the park during the stated hours.

So how is this different from the Swiss drunken professor claiming to be an alibi for Lumumba? He must be a drunk...who else drinks on such a holy day? So according to you Lumumba has no alibi either. Huh.
 
CoulsdonUK,
Nobody who is horribly murdered would want anyone getting a discounted prison term. In this brutal case we discuss, the womans name is Meredith Kercher...

Rudy Guede was convicted of murder in October 2008.
Perugia Shock was there in court:
http://web.archive.org/web/20101015182552/http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2008_10_01_archive.html

In Dec. 2009, he gets a great discount on his sentence for murdering Meredith Kercher.
Perugia Shock was once again in court:
http://web.archive.org/web/20101015...-max=2010-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-results=50

Rudy Guede has some good lawyers,
read the links above.
"Nuff said...
Okay thanks Meredith Kercher. Lived 20 minutes walk from my house, went to the same primary school as my girls, got it, thanks.

Well, I am pretty sure she would rather be alive right now, what do you think?

I think Guede had the equivalent of a public defender.

Hey look; the guy is going to be released way too soon for my liking; that is the Italian system. Heads up, there is nothing we can do about that.
 
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IMO cultural perceptions of America do play a role. A couple of cases in particular rankle the Italians. One is a disaster where a US fighter plane clipped a cable car at an Italian ski resort, sending 20 people to their deaths. The USAF hustled the pilots out of the country. They were court-martialed in the US and acquitted. A second incident involved CIA agents who abducted an Islamic preacher from Italian soil and flew him to Egypt, where he was tortured. Again, the US got its people out of Italy. One of them, Robert Lady, was sentenced to 9 years in prison by the Italian courts but the US refuses to extradite him.

I think its fair to say Amanda is bearing the brunt of some of that resentment.

It's also worth noting that the Italian court system has generally left-wing political sympathies. The "honorary president" of Italy's highest court is in fact a bona fide truther:

http://www.journalof911studies.com/resources/2012-September---Imposimato-letter.pdf

That kind of political orientation may well introduce a bias in a high-profile case involving an American defendant with vociferous American supporters.

For purposes of comparison, take a look at the Eric Volz case in Nicaragua. Volz is even more obviously innocent than Amanda, if such a thing is possible, but that didn't stop him from being convicted of killing his ex-girlfriend, a Nicaraguan. He was in another city at the time of the murder, in an office with more than a dozen alibi witnesses who testified for him. It's hard to believe he would even have been charged had he not been an American. (He was subsequently freed through what passes for diplomacy between the US and Nicaragua.)

Early media accounts of the Meredith Kercher case played heavily on a cultural stereotype, depicting Amanda as a loud, vulgar party girl with a sense of entitlement. She is not like that at all. She is polite and friendly, with an unassuming presence, and she is somewhat introspective and bookish. A lot of people cannot let go of the story put out in November 2007, however, perhaps because it rings true from what they have seen of American college students in general.

I like the mention of the Volz case. There were even cellular tower records of his phone calls being made in that other city and still they convicted him of murder. They didn't like that he in their eyes was a rich American. He was buying and selling real estate mostly to Americans who were taking advantage of the cheap prices which were effectively pricing the locals out of the market. There was a lot of resentment toward him because of that.

I agree with your perception. Amanda Knox is viewed in Italy as another American thumbing her nose at the Italians.
 
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Do you live in Italy?

Complain about the lenient penal system as a non Italian if you like. The Italian judicial\penal system is not going to change because of Meredith’s murder, as much as I would like that, it is for the Italian people to effect change, not a bunch of foreigners posting on an English based discussion site.

Hey stalk Guede, whatever works for you.
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Change has to start somewhere, but sometimes that change doesn't always where you always want it to start. Don't underestimate the value and influence from outside sources on changing things. At least, I can say I did complain about it regardless of it's affect, but that's me,

d

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LWOP

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The difference between Rudy's sentence and the other two is due exclusively to the 1/3 cut because of fast track trial, so should I re-formulize your question as follows: are you asking me if I agree with the mechanism of 1/3 cut as incentive in the fast-track trial? Or if I connsider 1/3 a too generous cut instead?

If this is the question, I'm not sure about the answer. I don't know if a smaller reduction (like 1/4) would be better. It would be more fair, but might be ineffective as incentive. So, I don't know.
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Thank you for your answer, as guarded as it was.

I personally believe Rudy got a lenient sentence.

I also believe that IF Amanda and Raffaele are really guilty, they also got a lenient sentence. They should spend the rest of their lives in jail and so should Rudy, LWOP (Life With Out, any possible chance of, Parole),

d

ETA: Natural Life, not just 25-30 years. It was a terrible, terrible way for Meredith to die and leniency should not be allowed.
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Change has to start somewhere, but sometimes that change doesn't always where you always want it to start. Don't underestimate the value and influence from outside sources on changing things. At least, I can say I did complain about it regardless of it's affect, but that's me,

d

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K; you keep plugging away here, please do prove me wrong. PM me when you track down Guede.
 
That didn't even engage my argument.

Again, it was the way this case was prosecuted and the evidence (and 'evidence') presented in court which led to Rudy Guede's being eligible to walk the streets soon. Amanda and Raffaele were convicted of 'staging' Rudy's break-in and for committing Rudy's theft and were given primary roles in the murder while Rudy's was dimished in contradiction to all the evidence
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But No! Because, the way this case was prosecuted, has lead to the sentencing of Rudy Guede to 30 year imprisonment.
This is where the way the case was prosecuted brougt Rudy Guede, until the other two co-accused managed to obtain generic mitigation on very vague grounds.
Prior to this event, Guede did not obtain any mitigation.

Guede, Sollecito and Knox roles in the murder were identical before the law. There is no difference between "primary" and "secondary" roles. This was seen as a gang-crime. It is the effect of group dynamic. None of the perps, taken alone, would have been capable of committing the murder. All three of them were necessary to the occurrence of the crime.
This is the way the crime has been prosecuted.

Also, Rudy could have been prosecuted for his previous recent burglaries, which was the duty of Mignini and/or Comodi as PMs, was it not?
Those additional crimes would have led to Rudy being put away for longer as well.

For what, for imaginary burglaries? What are those imaginary burglaries? You are talking about the only witness, Christian Tramontano, who did not report any burglary to the police, told a story after the Kercher murder and he was not sure about Guede's identity (and found unreliable by judge Micheli). This is the alleged burglary?
And definitely, NO, he could NOT be put behind bars for longer. He could not even be sentenced for alleged offences within any useful time. You forget he would ever serve time for those, or that the opening of prosecution cases against him for other offences could influence his murder trial. There would be no legal chance for that. It's impossible. If he had criminal records, previous sentences, that could have been used. But start procedings ex novo as a way to prosecute him, that is impossible.

However had an investigation been done and evidence gathered and Rudy properly prosecuted for those crimes it would have been damned deadly difficult to pretend that there was a 'staged break-in' and the two innocents left over from their bungled first arrest had conspired with Rudy to murder Meredith for no definable reason anyone has been able to support.

No, it would not be damned difficult to find out that the break in was staged, because it was obviously staged. And if you want to play this game, you could as well claim that it would have been difficult to pretend that Amanda Knox had no contacts with drug dealers in Piazza Grimana, had the drug dealers exchanging phone calls with her being investigated and tried before.
And also, what are "those crimes"? You only have Tramontano's non reliable account, dismissed by a judge. The second episode: he had a stolen laptop in Milan and entered a property unauthorized, without causing damages. That was one week before and in another jurisdiction, and there is nothing that makes the case Kercher murder case become different (autopsy report, luminol print, bathmat print, blood drops, cleanup, lies etc.: the problem is that you don't acknowledge this evidence. If you don't see it, you have no case).
 
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1. An alibi (in the Italian law) is a defensive argument (it can be proven, not proven, or false). It is a positive argument, theoretically falsifiable, not a place nor a testimony. An argument that is put forward by the defence, not by other witnesses.

2. Independently from point 1. and from defence arguments, a testimony about someone being elsewhere can be exculpatory evidence (work as kind of "alibi", even if it's not an alibi but evidence ex aliunde). However, it may be also not be. If the drunk man said that he doesn't remember anything about that night and a witness places him at a bar, that may be useful evidence. But if the allegedly drunk man puts forward a completely different recollection of events and is basically sure about it, this means the drunk man is lying. Depending on the details of the case, it is possible that this even has implications against the suspect rather than in his favour.
So it may well depend on what the drunk man says, as well as on the degree of reliability of the witness, and on the context of the details of the case, or on a combination and interaction between all these three elements.

I think I understand: if a guy with no arms says he strangled someone then an Italian court might convict him.
 
That didn't even engage my argument.

Again, it was the way this case was prosecuted and the evidence (and 'evidence') presented in court which led to Rudy Guede's being eligible to walk the streets soon. Amanda and Raffaele were convicted of 'staging' Rudy's break-in and for committing Rudy's theft and were given primary roles in the murder while Rudy's was dimished in contradiction to all the evidence.

Also, Rudy could have been prosecuted for his previous recent burglaries, which was the duty of Mignini and/or Comodi as PMs, was it not? Those additional crimes would have led to Rudy being put away for longer as well. However had an investigation been done and evidence gathered and Rudy properly prosecuted for those crimes it would have been damned deadly difficult to pretend that there was a 'staged break-in' and the two innocents left over from their bungled first arrest had conspired with Rudy to murder Meredith for no definable reason anyone has been able to support.


Ya right...these two geniuses didn't charge Guede with robbery in spite of finding only his DNA on the zipper of MK purse...maybe Italian girls don't keep their money in purses. Or maybe Mignini and Comodi are corrupt lying prosecutors who belong in jail right along with Guede. And Napolini and Stefanoni and Biondo. And camera boy when we can get a name on him.

Just like they didn't (could not according to Yummi/Mach) charge Guede and lock him safely away just the week before he killed MK. Even though caught dead nuts committing burglary in a school with a deadly weapon and in possession of tools of burglary and stolen items. Poor misunderstood Rudy.

Italy and Rudy deserve each other. Let him out tomorrow...poor man.

A fast track trial can be requested and DENIED! Just like no promise here that one may receive a plea deal offer. Depends on the evidence ....they had Guede. But they didnt want him. They protected him for some reason...this is the truth the Kerchers seek IMHO.
 
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I also believe that IF Amanda and Raffaele are really guilty, they also got a lenient sentence. They should spend the rest of their lives in jail and so should Rudy, LWOP (Life With Out, any possible chance of, Parole),

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Personally I am against life without parole (it is also unconstitutional in Italy). I am favourable to leniency towards the guilty as general rule. I don't believe a retributive concept of justice. But this is a matter of personal beliefs and preferences.
 
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Personally I am against life without parole (it is also unconstitutional in Italy). I am favourable to leniency towards the guilty as general rule. I don't believe a retributive concept of justice. But this is a matter of personal beliefs and preferences.
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Agreed, but I favor LWOP over the death penalty,

d

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Many people release statements and then they withdraw them, for various reasons. But Amanda Knox did not withdraw her statement. She put it in doubt, undermined its credibility. She could have stated "I lied because I felt coerced/threatned" but instead she clearly stated that she did not lie, that her testimony was genuine.
This closes the question: to me this means no coercion (moreover there is no confession, there is only a false accusation). A claim of coerced statement has its foundation on a claim of having lied because they forced you to lie by threats or other explicit means.

Moreover the first and second memoriale actually do place further false evidence against an innocent (Lumumba). They repeatedly offer false evidence, albeit at the same time they intend to qualify this evidence as "non reliable" - but they do place false evidence, they offer a false testimony, this is a fact itself meaningful and indepent from assessment about the evidence reliability.

Knox instead claims genuine testimony (besides repeatedly placing false evidence) thus, the only innocent option would be internalized testimony, that is false memory, and confusion.
But this is not credible.


I've appropriately recolored the part of Machiavelli's statement that is crap.

Amanda wrote that she stands by what she said in the interrogation. Amanda did not say that she agreed with the statements that the prosecutor drew up and had her sign like they routinely did on November 2, 3 and 4. It's probable that Amanda didn't even read those statements when she signed them. It's obvious that they contain factual errors coming from the police like the interpretation of the text message on Amanda's phone: "I replied to the message saying that we would meet immediately". This statement is all that they have from an interrogation lasting 5 hours starting in the hall when Amanda's phone call to Filomena is interrupted at 22:00 then moving into the interrogation room where questions already answered in the hall were repeated presumably so they would get them recorded to tape. It's also obvious that they are written in the words of the police/prosecution; phrases like: "I wish to state spontaneously" and "the African boy who owns the pub called “Le Chic” ". The ISC was correct in declaring that these statements could not be used against Amanda. The trial should have been halted and the prosecutors thrown out on their ears when they manipulated the trial to bring these statements in through the sewer with the simultaneous trial of the slander against Patrick.
 
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I've appropriately recolored the part of Machiavelli's statement that is crap.

Amanda wrote that she stands by what she said in the interrogation.

Yes. She also placed further evidence against Sollecito (remeber the "blood on hands") said she actually has mamories of Patrick entering her apartment and further testimony against him (maybe it's true, maybe not, who knows, "the only truth is I don't know what the truth is" and this open possibility about Patrick is "the best truth I can think about"). She said the only thing she was sure about was that she had lunch very late (like 10pm) and this was proven false, and that maybe she did every possible thing (writing e-mails etc) that night but maybe not, maybe she did something else, anything out from a universal array of changing nebulous options. She also wrote again "I did not lie".
 
Why do you cling to Curatolo? He had the wrong night. Even Crini's version of TOD means that either Crini is wrong or Curatolo is wrong. I don't understand why you cling to Curatolo as providing anything of value to understanding this horrible event.


Toto had the wrong night on both ends. He saw the halloween busses making it a day early but also saw the white suits before noon the next day which would make it the night after the murder that he saw the couple staring down at the cottage. I suspect the reality is that the whole thing is a conflation created in Curatolo's drugged up mind.
 
Even though caught dead nuts committing burglary in a school with a deadly weapon and in possession of tools of burglary and stolen items. (...)

Never caught committing any burglary. It won't change much actually, but that is, for the record.
Sleeping inside a school is not a burglary.
Possession of weapon is actually something about Sollecito, he was the man caught carrying a weapon inside a police station.
 
Grinder, to be clear, I mostly agree with you. I also don't think a double jeopardy argument would actually work. That being said, it is still possible. I have researched it (I did post cases from other circuits/districts earlier) and neither the federal district court for the Western District of Washington nor the Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit has ruled on this specific issue. There are really not many cases that address this kind of situation. There is at least room for argument. Again, not likely to win, but you can't guarantee it's an automatic loser of an argument.

I see obvious problems with the double-jeopardy argument and I don't think it will be the main basis for fighting an extradition request.

I note this from the NY Times:

Under the bilateral treaty, the Italians are required to provide American officials with information that gives “a reasonable basis” to believe that Ms. Knox committed the crime.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/01/u...-italy-killing-vows-to-fight-extradition.html

The information in this case consists of the DNA evidence, testimony from people like Curatolo and Nara, and Amanda's statements. A US court will have to examine that to decide if it is "a reasonable basis." If court experts request the electronic data that supports the DNA work, it won't do to say it is buried in a filing cabinet, or they weren't clear in their request. If Curatolo's testimony gives Amanda and Raffaele an alibi for the entire time frame of the murder, it won't count toward "a reasonable basis" for conviction. If the autopsy suggests a time of death around 9 pm, Nara's scream testimony won't eclipse that.

Facts will matter, and the Italian system will not control the process so facts are swept under the rug.
 
That was a totally illogical point of entry - that window is exposed to view and illuminated contrarily to what you say and the balcony windows are not, contrarily to what you say, the balcony is the logical point of entry (where all true break ins occurred), and Filomena's window also had its inner shutter closed and the external shutter were almost closed; moreover you require Rudy to perform a sequence of another series of illogical actions (like pulling the shutters ajar and half opened instead of leaving them opened or close them, leave the glass shards on the sill untouched etc.).


More crap. It's like Machiavelli never reads this thread.

  • Balcony == exposed to road, exposed to occupant investigating noise, difficult escape over railing and long fall.
  • Filomena's window == Excellent cover from all views in deep shadows of lower yard, multiple escape paths up, around or out through the woods in back.
 
Guede’s sentence is not going to change, period. Am I happy with this fact, No.


Such is Italian logic: Codefendants receive mitigating circumstances therefore Guede's sentence is automatically reduced. Codefendants found innocent of the crime, Guede's keeps reduction. Codefendants found guilty again and sentenced to maximum term, Guede keeps reduction. Is that the way it is supposed to work?

At least they didn't release Guede when Hellmann found Amanda and Raffaele innocent. Some guilters were actually arguing that they would.
 
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