Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[acbytesla]

Right, who thinks so? You may ask the question to, maybe some of the 60% US Americans who believe the 9-11 attacks were ordered by Saddam Hussein? Let's see what they think about the existence of honest Italians.
Or you may ask those reporters from the courtroom, today, who were explaining the defence problem was that Italian law is complex.

Yea..Italian law is complex. Is that is why it is screwed up?
Italian law is a complex so they don't need scientific evidence?
You mean Italian law is complex so it's ok for prosecutors to lie to judges?
You mean Italian law is complex so tech's can lie hide and obfuscate?

That's a good answer. Don't you mean that Italian law is corrupt Machiavelli? That you have morons running it? That you have rules that value the opinions of morons as opposed to scientists? Is that why you convict scientists of failing to predict earthquakes? Is that why you say 60 years olds can prey on 10 year old girls?

That's all I need to know about Italian law. You guys have been screwed up since the Pope and Galileo.

 

[Bill Williams]

Something quite unexpected is going on. The national and international reaction has become decidedly pro defendant. I remember with the first trial, the public reaction was mostly against Amanda, even in the states. Now what I see from sites such a reddit, Huffington post,and daily mail is quite a turnaround, with the top comments calling this an injustice and mocking the Italian justice system. Even the world news subreddit, which is usually quite anti American, are coming to Amanda and Raffaele defense.

A judge in the US referred to this sort of thing, while ruling on another wrongful conviction. The judge said that the general public must have confidence that the courts are delivering proper verdicts.

There are dark days ahead for Raffaele... but at the end of the day, if people don't fundamentally respect a decision, the court has done great harm.

Would the average Italian want to trust their liberty to a system where the ISC gets to dictate the facts? Would the average Italian want to live in a system which demands that contamination be proven by the accused, all the while where the very person whio collected a major item of evidence can neither confirm nor deny she was the vehicle of contamination?

At some point the people can only be ruled by their own consent.

 

[Kaosium]

Doesn't matter. She's guilty.

No, she's not, neither is Raffaele. They were acquitted and released, on the basis of the evidence. The Supreme Court (Cassation) of Italy cannot possibly rule on the evidence, they never heard it and they have to rule on tens of thousands of cases per year. Their function is to rule on points of law to ensure that it's consistantly applied in their Civil Law system.

What happened was the prosecution appealed on the evidence and asked for a special exception and listed the 'best' part of a bunch of discredited evidence as well as rulings from Guede's court where it was in the interest of both parties to pretend Amanda and Raffaele were there, which in part is why Rudy Guede will be walking the streets of Italy soon.

This is political in Italy, their prosecutors are like unto Gods and they really screwed the pooch on this one. If Amanda and Raffaele are innocent that would mean they let the actual murderer off with a slap and a tickle and cost Meredith's family endless grief and expense and ruined the lives of two innocent college kids as well as their familes who've also been charged.

That cannot be bourne, so they pretend Raffaele and Amanda were there, though no one has come up with a scenario that makes any sense that has evidence to support it. The last one heard from the prosection is Rudy took a dump and didn't flush and that led to murder and then 'staging the break-in' which was really how Rudy came in a burglary attempt as he was about to be evicted and was jobless.

 

[Machiavelli]

Many apologies... this makes no sense.

Are you claiming that a conspiracy theory where Hellmann was supposedly "substituted" is logical and factual (therefore the people in on the substitution are part of the conspiracy, suggesting a "party" of judicial-types opposed to you)?

Is that CT a mixture of truth and consistency? You haven't even revealed the amount of Euros it took for Hellmann, the well known Mason, to deliver on his promise?

Such theory is certainly 100% consistent both logically and with multiple factual elements. Hopefully it will be determined if it is the truth with absolute certainity and/or which of the details are true and which are known; when the time to establish the whole details of the truth comes, that will be the time for discussing it.
Not, it appears that it is the innocentisti those who always try to discuss it with me. I only believe its existence, I know, I've learned about it, but I don't use it as an argument, certainly not as a main argument in the case evidence (I may suggest: ask yourself the question about it). They - the innocentisti - are the ones who love to talk about conspiracy theories and to use them as their main argument, not me.

 

[acbytesla]

Machiavelli - you forgot something. RandyN requested that you respond to the following.

This is a question many have about Italian justice. Do they simply get to invent and reinvent and reinvent, and then at the end claim, "well you don't need a motive.?" I mean, in Italy do they get to do that, string it out until they get a conviction?

Again, what was the crime they were convicted of? Ritualistic killing? Sex game gone wrong? Pooh in the toilet? Or Massei's, "a last second choice for evil'? I'm hoping you'll be one to translate Nencini's report - I get the feeling he'll offer a completely unheard of one.... like Crini..

I have the feeling that even despite today's reinstatement of Massei's decision, no one from your side of things will answer that question. It will just keep being cut out of the asker's post....

Bill, this is the Western country that says it is ok for 60 year old men to have sex with 10 year old girls. This is the country that thinks pedophilia should be allowed. This is the country that thinks that evidence is simply not needed. That they can destroy and not disclose evidence. This is Machiavelli's Italy. The country that he loves.

Well, one things for sure. I'm never going to take that trip to Italy that I have always wanted to take. Spain, France and Greece will have to do.

 

[acbytesla]

A judge in the US referred to this sort of thing, while ruling on another wrongful conviction. The judge said that the general public must have confidence that the courts are delivering proper verdicts.

There are dark days ahead for Raffaele... but at the end of the day, if people don't fundamentally respect a decision, the court has done great harm.

Would the average Italian want to trust their liberty to a system where the ISC gets to dictate the facts? Would the average Italian want to live in a system which demands that contamination be proven by the accused, all the while where the very person whio collected a major item of evidence can neither confirm nor deny she was the vehicle of contamination?

At some point the people can only be ruled by their own consent.

In a way Bill, they did this for the Italian citizens. You see, Italy is the country that doesn't really have freedom of the press. There, anti-Knox articles have been written for years.

Most Italians don't have the facts of this case, they have the picture that the spoon fed press has had to print. The actual Italian citizens are like any dictatorship or communist country.

They are oblivious to the facts. They think she's guilty.

That she is a luciferina.

 

[Diocletus]

Right, who thinks so? You may ask the question to, maybe some of the 60% US Americans who believe the 9-11 attacks were ordered by Saddam Hussein? Let's see what they think about the existence of honest Italians.
Or you may ask those reporters from the courtroom, today, who were explaining the defence problem was that Italian law is complex.

"Complex"? I think the proper word is "Byzantine".

But actually, it's only Italian process that is complex/Byzantine.

Italian evidentiary and substantive law is actually symplistic and underdeveloped. You know--primitive.

 

[LashL]

This verdict is, frankly, perverse. It is also unconscionable and, sadly, it was not at all unexpected. Utterly shameful.

 

[Diocletus]

Bill, this is the Western country that says it is ok for 60 year old men to have sex with 10 year old girls. This is the country that thinks pedophilia should be allowed. This is the country that thinks that evidence is simply not needed. That they can destroy and not disclose evidence. This is Machiavelli's Italy. The country that he loves.

Well, one things for sure. I'm never going to take that trip to Italy that I have always wanted to take. Spain, France and Greece will have to do.

Yeah, screw it. I've been to Italy plenty of times. It's Barcelona for me next time.

 

[RWVBWL]

Which Theory was it?

Hi Machiavelli,
Congrats on the courtroom victory...

Anyways,
I'm still trying to piece together a coherrant pro-guilt theory of what happened the night Miss Kercher was murdered.

Is it The Poo Theory?

Here's a photo of the crime scene:


I find it strange that if Miss Kercher was murdered because of Rudy Guede leaving poo in Filomena and Laura's toilet,
that Rudy Guede's DNA is even on Miss Kercher's purse.


Thoughts?



Here is a photo of the crime scene after the decadents body was removed.


Look closely.
I find it strange that Rudy Guede's DNA was found on Miss Kercher's blue sweatshirt sleeve cuff.

And that Rudy Guede's shoeprints were found in Miss Kercher's blood on that pillows case,
which was found lying under Miss Kercher's naked genitalia.

I also find it strange that Rudy Guede's DNA was found inside of Miss Kercher's vagina.


How come this happened if Miss Kercher was murdered simply because Rudy Guede took a crap in the other girls bathroom?

Is Rudy Guede staging the crime scene to make it look like a rape and murder?
Who would make him do so? And why?

Amanda Knox, orchestrating this from the hallway,
as Prosecutor Mignini has theorized?

If Amanda Knox was in that bedroom that night,
why is there not 1 trace of her presence???

If it was The Sex Game Gone Wrong Theory,
why stage a crime scene to, ahh, look like a sex crime?
Thoughts?

 

[acbytesla]

Such theory is certainly 100% consistent both logically and with multiple factual elements. Hopefully it will be determined if it is the truth with absolute certainity and/or which of the details are true and which are known; when the time to establish the whole details of the truth comes, that will be the time for discussing it.
Not, it appears that it is the innocentisti those who always try to discuss it with me. I only believe its existence, I know, I've learned about it, but I don't use it as an argument, certainly not as a main argument in the case evidence (I may suggest: ask yourself the question about it). They - the innocentisti - are the ones who love to talk about conspiracy theories and to use them as their main argument, not me.

You wouldn't know the truth if it hit you upside the head.

 

[Machiavelli]

No, she's not, neither is Raffaele. They were acquitted and released, on the basis of the evidence. The Supreme Court (Cassation) of Italy cannot possibly rule on the evidence, they never heard it and they have to rule on tens of thousands of cases per year. Their function is to rule on points of law to ensure that it's consistantly applied in their Civil Law system.

What happened was the prosecution appealed on the evidence and asked for a special exception and listed the 'best' part of a bunch of discredited evidence as well as rulings from Guede's court where it was in the interest of both parties to pretend Amanda and Raffaele were there, which in part is why Rudy Guede will be walking the streets of Italy soon.

This is political in Italy, their prosecutors are like unto Gods and they really screwed the pooch on this one. If Amanda and Raffaele are innocent that would mean they let the actual murderer off with a slap and a tickle and cost Meredith's family endless grief and expense and ruined the lives of two innocent college kids as well as their familes who've also been charged. (...)

You are making up stuff. You have no clue what the Supreme Court rules about. You have no experience about SC rulings and you don't know even know what "point of law" means.
I explained something about what the SC rules about in the past, and I proved myself right on every point of law (with supreme horror of LJ who always stubbornly refused to acknowledge reality and insisted in condescendignly "schooling" me about, well about his envisioning of how the Supreme Court was, without reading a line of jurisprudence from it).
I think you also have little clue about what a prosecutor is in Italy (possibly even of what God is in Italy). You don't know anything about how the judiciary works, nor about what politics is in Italy; but above all, as I said you seem to not know the basics of Cassazione rulings, related laws, relation to evidence, etc.

 

[acbytesla]

Yeah, screw it. I've been to Italy plenty of times. It's Barcelona for me next time.

I know. A friend of mine just took a trip to Barcelona and the island of Mallorca. He had a great time. That sounds nice. Doesn't it?

 

[Strozzi]

You mean the match that wasn't repeated by anyone?
You mean that bra clasp that was collected 46 days later? The one, that was passed around between techs like a bottle a bottle of cheap wine?

You mean that bra clasp that Stefanoni is holding with a dirty glove?
You mean those results that Stefanoni to this day hasn't provided the electronic data files? You mean that Y halotype?

Yes, that bra clasp. The clasp that can't be examined by anyone again because Dr. Stefanoni immersed the cloth and metal item in liquid as a way to preserve and protect it.

 

[RandyN]

Right, who thinks so? You may ask the question to, maybe some of the 60% US Americans who believe the 9-11 attacks were ordered by Saddam Hussein? Let's see what they think about the existence of honest Italians.
Or you may ask those reporters from the courtroom, today, who were explaining the defence problem was that Italian law is complex.

No it was the CIA ...get your facts straight. Saddam was a Bush thing. He got killed by W because Saddam made his daddy look like a fool and caused him to lose the election to a second term...almost impossible in USA nowadays. Also Cheney need a boost in his Haliburton stock holdings so going after Saddam only made sense...well Bush sense....which is a lot like Italian sense come to think of it. I wonder if Bush was really Busho long ago? Or Bushi? Seems like it. Anyway ...mission accomplished!

Lets see if someone actually starts investigating the facts now. Maybe an investigative reporter will break this story. But maybe no one cares...Italy rarely makes the news here for anything. Last big thing was when they signed on with Hitler IIRC.

How is your time line proving guilt and fitting facts coming along? Anything yet?

Lets start with the poop fight. Do prosecutors always get to say whatever they want in Italian court and without any basis or was that just for this case where they did that several times...or was it dozens?

Halloween delayed for a day so then dead peoples day satanic ritual. Mignini said it and Comodi threatened to quit if he didn't shut up about it. Fact!

The Italian law is not complex. It is corrupt! Much like the Italian Judiciary...even the ECOHR agrees. It finds your courts in violation the most.

They will for this too. But we know that wont be for years since the Mafia errr Italian Judicial System will drag this out for a few more years first with an confirmation by ISC in 2015 and then a special appeal against that like the one with Hellmann from 2000....all delaying application for appeal to the ECOHR because Italy must circle jerk innocent persons for a few more years....I'm pretty close right Yummi?

Not complex...simply corrupt. Bring your case here for the extradition appeal. You wont last an hour inside an honest serious court. They may just laugh you out the door or they may put you in jail for attempting to make our courts look foolish. And sure we have prosecutors and judges who do that themselves but it is not endemic. Not a matter of national pride like the corruption of the courts in Italy is for Italians.

 

[Machiavelli]

Bill, this is the Western country that says it is ok for 60 year old men to have sex with 10 year old girls. This is the country that thinks pedophilia should be allowed. (...)

Acbytesla, the ruling doesn't say that. This seems to me a bit hysterical.

 

[acbytesla]

You are making up stuff. You have no clue what the Supreme Court rules about. You have no experience about SC rulings and you don't know even know what "point of law" means.
I explained something about what the SC rules about in the past, and I proved myself right on every point of law (with supreme horror of LJ who always stubbornly refused to acknowledge reality and insisted in condescendignly "schooling" me about, well about his envisioning of how the Supreme Court was, without reading a line of jurisprudence from it).
I think you also have little clue about what a prosecutor is in Italy (possibly even of what God is in Italy). You don't know anything about how the judiciary works, nor about what politics is in Italy; but above all, as I said you seem to not know the basics of Cassazione rulings, related laws, relation to evidence, etc.

Clearly the Cassazione doesn't either. They don't know about science, they don't know about evidence, they don't know about chain of evidence. They are almost as clueless and Niccolò di Bernardo dei Mach.......You know, the guy who posts here on occasion. The guy who thinks this is a Masonic Conspiracy, the guy who thinks this was a sacrificial rite associated with all Saints day.

You know. Yummi!!!!

 

[Strozzi]

You are making up stuff. You have no clue what the Supreme Court rules about. You have no experience about SC rulings and you don't know even know what "point of law" means.
I explained something about what the SC rules about in the past, and I proved myself right on every point of law (with supreme horror of LJ who always stubbornly refused to acknowledge reality and insisted in condescendignly "schooling" me about, well about his envisioning of how the Supreme Court was, without reading a line of jurisprudence from it).
I think you also have little clue about what a prosecutor is in Italy (possibly even of what God is in Italy). You don't know anything about how the judiciary works, nor about what politics is in Italy; but above all, as I said you seem to not know the basics of Cassazione rulings, related laws, relation to evidence, etc.

Machiavelli, you know a lot about many things. I mean that truthfully; there is no second meaning to my comment. Are you trained in law, or history, or philosophy? Are you a professor?

 

[Dan O.]

Remember these boys

[IMGL]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=30126&d=1391040175[/IMGL]Now, doesn't camera boy have that look of guilt like maybe he was just caught doing something bad?

Moment's before this frame, he and the short fat perp (camera boy no. 2 in the background) were huddled around the base of Meredith's desk taking a picture of something on the floor at time index 00:13:46.

What's so special about that spot? And who are these boys and what is their role in the investigation?


For the newcomers to this thread, one of these perps sold their photos of the bloody crime scene including the famous fake bloody pink bathroom photo to the press. They have yet to be identified by name.

 

[acbytesla]

Acbytesla, the ruling doesn't say that. This seems to me a bit hysterical.

Well I find you to be hysterical too. I'm laughing at you. Can't you tell?

You can laugh with me. We will both be laughing at the same guy then.