Merged Ukraine erupts in riots and general strike.

[McHrozni]

Mutually assured destruction held no part in the elimination of war between major economic powers? You have a very poor sense of history I see. What stopped the Soviet Union and the United States from going to war post WWII?

Well, if you move the goalposts severely and thus upgrade "weapons of mass destruction" (your initial claim) to "mutually assured destruction" and downgrade "was sole reason" (again, initial claim) to "was very important part of", then yes, you have half a point there. Again, for this to be valid you must move the goalposts, meaning you have no case here whatsoever.

If you can explain whose nukes currently prevent Russia from invading Ukraine, I'll concede an actual point.

McHrozni

 

[spin0]

Currently 3 confirmed deaths at the protests.

The first victim was a young man who fell from a roof but the circumstances under which he fell are unclear. In the videos one can see riot police on the roof beating up a person, and it is unclear if he was pushed from the roof. Police says he jumped. Videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-YTwqUdNq0&feature=youtu.be&t=1m10s
https://plus.google.com/101242059061724307714/posts/MkJ9M9Bp61v


Violence is escalating and the situation is going out of control. Head of association of firearms owners of Ukraine stated that if needed the Association would urge people to stand up and guard people against the police.

ETA: Another victim was identified: Mykhailo Zhyzdnevskiy, citizen of Belarus and part of Klitschko's youth team. He was shot at during Berkut's attack, was wounded in the chest around the heart region and arrived to hospital without a pulse.

 

[Ferguson]

Another heart-warming pic of the peace-loving "ProEU" demonstrators, taken yesterday in Kiev. If you don't know what 1488 stands for, look it up.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1172&pictureid=8520[/qimg]

Good to know we can judge entire movements by one protestor.
I'll keep that in mind next time Occupy comes up in the news... or hell, Islam.

 

[spin0]

Events have been escalating by the hour. The are reports of more deaths but at this point it's difficult to keep track of numbers and confirmations. There are even rumours of tanks nearing Kyiv.

Reportedly people have been disappering while being treated in hospital: Injured Ukraine activists ‘disappearing’ from Kyiv hospitals
One of the kidnapped was protester Yuri Verbitsky who reportedly has been found dead in woods.

Today's talks between opposition leaders and Yanukovich have failed: Ukraine opposition say they'll brave bullets after talks with Yanukovich fail

World Economic Forum has banned Ukrainian PM Azarov from the meeting in Davos.

U.S. Embassy has revoked the visas of several Ukrainian officials.

The EU has condemned the violence and is still contemplating possible actions.

Live feeds and videos from Kiyv are pretty intense, this reddit post has an updated list of live feeds, images and videos.

ETA: Reports of police using live rounds, and more deaths: Five killed, at least 300 injured, in police assaults on EuroMaidan protesters
A medical worker said that the gunshot victims died from wounds caused by metal bullets, not rubber ones. “I was on the scene when one of the victims came in. I saw the points of entry and was able to discern that the bullets that killed him were metal, not rubber bullets.”

 

[uke2se]

In Swedish press today it seems as if some protestors are starting to get ready to fight back. Molotov cocktails and firearms are noticeable. Can't say I blame them, but it is going to escalate the situation. Time for severe sanctions towards the Ukraine and Russia.

 

[spin0]

An interesting personal account from the barricades: Going Is Scary, Not Going Is Shameful
The original untranslated post with images: идти страшно. а не идти - стыдно.

Infernal photos from last night: http://zyalt.livejournal.com/982589.html

In live stream a single protestor had a bunch of Berkut retreat:

"These Romans are crazy"

Fantastic units: http://i.imgur.com/Oys3HsX.jpg
But what are their stats?

 

[spin0]

A brave Polish reporter engages Berkut with his microphone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmpBD_MoeAw

5:48 (reporter) - Marcin, I'm speaking to my camerman now, I beg of you, hide and don't get hit by any rock.
5:55 (reporter) - We are right now in a demilitarized zone - but as you can see even the police are throwing rocks at me!
6:07 (reporter) - Despite that I'm going to move towards them, ask why they are doing what they are doing. These things that happened around 12.30.
6:15 (reporter) - Right now we can see an ambulance with the sirens blaring - before me I saw some beaten people - I'm going to look for blood in the snow.
6:25 (reporter) - The people are telling me that yes, look at what is happening here. Look at this, blood covered snow and rocks constatly flying overhead.
6:40 (reporter) - Again, look at this, the police are retreating. The protestors are throwing rocks again, trying to push them back into Grushevski street, I don't know if they will be able to do that.
6:55 (reporter) - They are once again firing into the crowd. We will ask them why they are doing this.
7:05 (reporter to policeman) Why are you doing this, you could kill someone!
7:08 (policeman) - No, no.
7:10 (reporter) - Why are you doing this? You're ukrainian, what are you doing!? You're beating your own brothers!?

 

[WildCat]

Dramatic footage here...

 

[spin0]

The protests have been spreading:

These emotional images are from Ivano-Frankivsk (Іва́но-Франкі́вськ): http://vgolos.com.ua/news/u_frankiv...y_yaki_shturmuvaly_oda_foto_video_131913.html

The protestors were trying to take over the district government building with the police blocking. Eventually the police left the building and the protestors created a path to let them out. Some of the police stopped to apologize and explained that they where only on duty.

 

[spin0]

This just in: Ukraine's President Yanukovych offers PM position to opposition leader

Could be too little too late.

 

[McHrozni]

Ukraine is becoming the new Syria. Putin got away with that one, but this is way more important and way more tacky for all concerned. It is not a far away land by any standard, Ukraine borders both Russia and EU/NATO members. Plus Ukraine has an organized, viable opposition. It'll be messy, that's for sure - especially since a fall of pro-Russian Ukraine, coupled with the Ponzi games in Sochi, could well lead to similar problems for Putin at home.

McHrozni

 

[trustbutverify]

Ukraine is becoming the new Syria. Putin got away with that one, but this is way more important and way more tacky for all concerned. It is not a far away land by any standard, Ukraine borders both Russia and EU/NATO members. Plus Ukraine has an organized, viable opposition. It'll be messy, that's for sure - especially since a fall of pro-Russian Ukraine, coupled with the Ponzi games in Sochi, could well lead to similar problems for Putin at home.

McHrozni

The same propaganda machine desperately fighting to prop up Assad and Putin as heroic victims, through the tireless internet efforts of their useful idiots, is balls deep into this one as well. The strategy is as predictable as it is contrived; Assad, Putin and Yanukovych are being "demonized" for resisting Western imperialism.

 

[McHrozni]

The same propaganda machine desperately fighting to prop up Assad and Putin as heroic victims, through the tireless internet efforts of their useful idiots, is balls deep into this one as well. The strategy is as predictable as it is contrived; Assad, Putin and Yanukovych are being "demonized" for resisting Western imperialism.

Exactly. It's just as disgusting. In reality, both Yanukovych and Assad are embracing and actively fighting for Russian imperialism.

McHrozni

 

[timhau]

This just in: Ukraine's President Yanukovych offers PM position to opposition leader

English translation: "How much is it gonna take to keep me in office, guys?"

 

[dudalb]

Exactly. It's just as disgusting. In reality, both Yanukovych and Assad are embracing and actively fighting for Russian imperialism.

McHrozni

I 100% agree. Imperalism seems to be fine as long as it is Anti Western Imperialism........

 

[Puppycow]

President takes sick. What impeccable timing!

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/01/31/world/europe/ukraine-unrest.html?_r=0&referrer=

 

[crescent]

You know, I keep wondering. A few years back Russia and Georgia went at it, ending up with Russia controlling a good bit of Georgian territory, where the population was a Russian majority. The government of Georgia itself bore a good bit of the blame for that, but the end result did not exactly displease Russia, who ended up with a de facto expansion of territory.

Now this, from Puppycow's link:

One Ukrainian opposition journalist, Vitaly Portnikov, suggested in a Facebook posting that the sick-leave announcement indicated that Mr. Yanukovych had lost power to a hard-line faction in his government.

“I don’t remember official statements of Viktor Yanukovych having colds,” Mr. Portnikov wrote. “But I remember well that on the 19th of August, 1991” — the date of a short-lived coup d'état in Moscow — “the vice president of the U.S.S.R., Gennady Yanayev, announced a serious illness of Mikhail Sergeyevich Gorbachev.”

I don't think Russia would do that here - at least, not until after the Olympics.

What are the chances of Russia forcing the pro-Russian elements in the Ukrainian government to avoid concessions until after the Olympics, followed by a Russian incursion into eastern Ukraine, to "protect" the ethnic Russians?

Am I being paranoid? For that matter, would they even wait until after the Olympics? (If I recall correctly, the Russia-Georgia war began during the Olympics.)

 

[dudalb]

I admit I have not worked up the nerve to see what Russia Today's coverage of this is like.Maybe somebody who has more guts then I do can tell me if it is as bad as I think it is.

 

[McHrozni]

You know, I keep wondering. A few years back Russia and Georgia went at it, ending up with Russia controlling a good bit of Georgian territory, where the population was a Russian majority. The government of Georgia itself bore a good bit of the blame for that, but the end result did not exactly displease Russia, who ended up with a de facto expansion of territory.

Now this, from Puppycow's link:



I don't think Russia would do that here - at least, not until after the Olympics.

What are the chances of Russia forcing the pro-Russian elements in the Ukrainian government to avoid concessions until after the Olympics, followed by a Russian incursion into eastern Ukraine, to "protect" the ethnic Russians?

Am I being paranoid? For that matter, would they even wait until after the Olympics? (If I recall correctly, the Russia-Georgia war began during the Olympics.)

I think the chances are fairly slim. Ukraine is nearly ten times larger than Georgia and borders both EU and NATO. It's a much harder target than Georgia. Still more importantly, it is a vital conduit for Russian gas to Europe. Any such invasion would mean the exports would stop indefinitely, forcing the West's hand somewhat and starving Russia of an important source of foreign exchange. It would likely be a game-changer as to how the West dealt with Putin, treating him how he deserves and not as a partner of some sort.

Interesting and somewhat relevant:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/01/30/us-usa-russia-missile-idUSBREA0T1ZJ20140130

Between these violations of sovereignty to protect minorities and violations of disarming treaties, Putin is beginning to remind me of someone from previous century. He's not there yet, but many actions are strongly reminiscent of him and similarities are not trivial. I can't say who without Godwinning myself He's not there yet, but if he does send his troops to Ukraine, I'll start buying up canned food, bottled water and salt.

McHrozni

 

[L.Y.S.]

but if he does send his troops to Ukraine, I'll start buying up canned food, bottled water and salt.

You, along with 7 other billion people would be better off buying yourselves tombstones, and I'm not talking about cheap frozen goods.