Merged Ukraine erupts in riots and general strike.

[WildCat]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Ukraine





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zX4Ek8401I

If the EU does not replace Ukraine's energy and export needs then the bill will be devastating.

How is any of that even related to the issue at hand? How does a trade deal with the EU stop exports to Kazakhstan?

 

[Virus]

eta: and show me a spot on the globe where civil wars and sectarian violence exists and I'll show you the legacy of European colonialism. You Euros love to blame the USA for the messes you created yourself.

I agree with everything you said to CE except for that. Colonialism was good for them. What you're seeing is the legacy of tribalism, communism, Islam, corruption and bad culture.

Blame the Soviets. Their influence was way worse. They told them to run socialist economies and taught them how to run police states.

 

[McHrozni]

Since L.Y.S. is missing (but not missed), I'll touch this. With a 45 ft pole, just in case.

eta: and show me a spot on the globe where civil wars and sectarian violence exists and I'll show you the legacy of European colonialism. You Euros love to blame the USA for the messes you created yourself.

Given that European colonialism literately touched every corner of the world, you will find such excuses quite easily. However, I think you have it the other way around. Wars and sectarian violence are the default state of the human race, really. All European colonialism did in Syria or Iraq was to give the war the prefix "Civil".

The great invention of the West was economic integration and advanced trade that made the conventional war inefficient and obsolete. Places that refuse to globalize will continue to fight wars as a result. Blaming some vague connection to colonialism or imperialism is just perpetuating it.

McHrozni

 

[dudalb]

Because it has the name Russia in it no doubt?

One of RT's "American Correspodents" is Alex Jones. That alone is enough to put it into the "Should be totally ignored as a reliable source for anything" category.

 

[L.Y.S.]

Since L.Y.S. is missing (but not missed), I'll touch this. With a 45 ft pole, just in case.



Given that European colonialism literately touched every corner of the world, you will find such excuses quite easily. However, I think you have it the other way around. Wars and sectarian violence are the default state of the human race, really. All European colonialism did in Syria or Iraq was to give the war the prefix "Civil".

The great invention of the West was economic integration and advanced trade that made the conventional war inefficient and obsolete. Places that refuse to globalize will continue to fight wars as a result. Blaming some vague connection to colonialism or imperialism is just perpetuating it.

McHrozni

I don't believe this original question was addressed to me, more likely Childlike Empress. At any rate, Ukrainians seems like they are choosing their own destiny. Which ever party they join is their decision.

As for your last paragraph, I've never said anything about capitalism, colonialism, or globalization. This is completely irrelevant to the context of the discussion. I think the proper term for your last paragraph is historical revisionism. Capitalism has existed for nearly as long as the United States, and yet Europe has managed to have 3 devastating continental wars, in addition to several violent unification wars during the time.

Capitalism is far from what stopped Europeans from killing each other. What really stopped them from fighting is weapons of mass destruction. Enough weapons existed to kill hundreds of millions of Europeans in 30 minutes or less. Those odds will pretty much stop any reasonable person.

 

[L.Y.S.]

One of RT's "American Correspodents" is Alex Jones. That alone is enough to put it into the "Should be totally ignored as a reliable source for anything" category.

Very well, I'm not one to get in a tizzy about it. The point is that Ukrainian businessmen, Eastern Ukrainians, and Ukrainian politicians hate the EU bill, and that is the general sentiment I get from the discussions I've heard from people.

 

[McHrozni]

I don't believe this original question was addressed to me, more likely Childlike Empress.

Good catch! How did you do it? Was it my comment explicitly mentioning you're no longer around, or the fact I was quoting Wildcat?

Capitalism is far from what stopped Europeans from killing each other. What really stopped them from fighting is weapons of mass destruction. Enough weapons existed to kill hundreds of millions of Europeans in 30 minutes or less. Those odds will pretty much stop any reasonable person.

Yes, which is why one major war was fought with weapons of mass destruction, and another war 30 years later was fought without them ... of wait ... no ... as usual your assertion makes no sense whatsoever

No, I assure you it was economic integration and the fact wars became obsolete and useless. Why do you think Russia hasn't invaded Ukraine yet? US/UK/French nukes?

McHrozni

 

[L.Y.S.]

Yes, which is why one major war was fought with weapons of mass destruction, and another war 30 years later was fought without them ... of wait ... no ... as usual your assertion makes no sense whatsoever

No, I assure you it was economic integration and the fact wars became obsolete and useless. Why do you think Russia hasn't invaded Ukraine yet? US/UK/French nukes?

McHrozni

Mutually assured destruction held no part in the elimination of war between major economic powers? You have a very poor sense of history I see. What stopped the Soviet Union and the United States from going to war post WWII?

 

[Darth Rotor]

Self Interest, and Levi-Strauss jeans.

This thread has been interesting to read. Thanks to all for the entertainment.

 

[Madalch]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-protest-ban-defied-with-violence-1.2502720

Last week, the government passed a law outlawing protests; the Ukrainians didn't like that.

 

[Madalch]

I'm starting to think that this, and the gay-rights thing in Russia, is a way to get western countries to boycott the Olympics so that the Russians can own the podium.

 

[Darth Rotor]

I'm starting to think that this, and the gay-rights thing in Russia, is a way to get western countries to boycott the Olympics so that the Russians can own the podium.

Beats invading Afghanistan, I suppose.

 

[Klimax]

Beats invading Afghanistan, I suppose.

For a second I thought there was "Invading podium". Not sure why...

 

[Childlike Empress]

Another heart-warming pic of the peace-loving "ProEU" demonstrators, taken yesterday in Kiev. If you don't know what 1488 stands for, look it up.

 

[Manger Douse]

What does the red and black flag in the foreground of this picture symbolise Jihadjane?

 

[spin0]

Translated news broadcast how Euromaidan protesters stop and disarm paid infiltrators aka "titushki":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftWaYbhqRkU

lol@the public apology part, almost makes me feel sorry for them. Almost.

"It is evident that the so-called 'titushki' are shipped in by the bus-load and there are a few hundred of them in Kiev. Vitaliy Klitschko, who only last night held up and disarmed two 'titushok', said their purpose was to smash windows and burn cars so that the Government has the official mandate to determine 'extraordinary circumstances'."

Last night the situation was very tense in the European square and Maidan square with police special force Berkut attacking and at the same time sending hired "titushki" thugs in civilian clothes to infiltrate and wreak havoc. In the live video feeds besides beating the protesters the the riot police was throwing molotov coctails (flew both ways) and attacking news reporters while the 'titushki' were adding to the mayhem with violence, smashing things and burning cars.

The protesters held their line and eventually the Berkut withdrew. The 'titushki' were mostly young poor guys who were given hammers and other stuff for armament, and were promised about $30 after the job was done.

 

[spin0]

Live streams from Euromaidan.

UKR Euromaidan live near European Square: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/euromajdan?rmalang=en_US

ESPRESO.TV
Euromaidan live near European Square: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sE-j_IwxkNM
and news broadcast http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrZcAsPKK74

Euromaidan live Spilno.tv: http://spilno.tv/

Maidan Nezalezhnosti [Live]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UT86BH2LVUU

Stream from Automaidan: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/vichekyiv
Another Automaidan stream: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/monticzardas

#Euromaidan twitter stream: https://twitter.com/search?q=#euromaidan&src=typd&f=realtime

 

[spin0]

Last night some university history students built a ad-hoc catapult:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APGnKRx67kI

Hatapult? Trebuchat? You decide.

 

[spin0]

Berkut police forces targeted journalists last night: Ukrainian RFE/RL Journalists Describe Beatings

Journalists and people with cameras were also aimed at and shot with rubber bullets. Some of such instaces were recorded on video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgOIbnTxlBo&sns=tw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkuH9PK_lCY
(though I'm not quite sure what's going on in them...)

There are also numerous reports that Berkut has been purposefully aiming for the heads of the protesters. At least 17 people has been hospitalized with rubber bullet traumas to the eye area, and at least four have had an eye surgically removed. There are also reports of injuries when the police has allegdly used stun grenades peppered with shrapnel (taped on screws etc).

 

[spin0]

For those interested there's a Russian government official doing a relevant AMA in Reddit: I am a Russian Government official and this is what I think of Ukraine's protests.

It's very interesting to hear his POV - even if I don't agree with many of his points or even with the factuality of some of his claims.

Here's some of his points.
He blatantly admits to what most everybody already knows:

I'm telling it bluntly, because let's face it, this is politics and trade issues. We do a lot of business with Ukraine, and using pressure when you're biggest trade partner is a trick of the trade.

His explanation for the behavior of Russian media is very difficult to take seriously:

We know there has been downplaying by the Russian media to show the protests. It may seem laughably stupid, but its media and I guess they're doing to not to worry and frustrate millions of our citizens who have relatives in Ukraine. This will cause them to force us to take some major action, and as we know once we get involved - this will get EU/US more chance to interfere.

Ach so, Sudetenland.

But this I can agree with:

Please, protest - but peacefully. Protesting for the sake of it won't help either. Give some solutions and it'd be great.

He says he'll continue the session tomorrow.