Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[RoseMontague]

I think the better example is a railroad job from hell or perhaps a witch trial.

 

[acbytesla]

perhaps serving 10 years is better than hanging from a tree limb.

Well, that I agree. But this has been going on for almost 7 years. What's 26 more among friends? You think we'll still be posting arguments about it then?

And Go Hawks!!! And hey, Bertha is moving, so things are looking up.

 

[Kaosium]

Um, not sure I can help here either.
Your post will have to stand as it's own answer.

J Harold C comrade - do you look at what you have typed before hitting submit.

Platonov, have you ever considered how it looks if Amanda and Raffaele are innocent? For crissakes they caught the guy who killed Meredith! That the prosecution chose to include two of the people from their mistaken arrest into some bizzarro conspiracy with no evidence to support it outside that they manufactured with forensic sophistry and (perhaps) a little slight of hand does not excuse attempting to destroy the lives of two innocent people and their families, which Maresca was an active participant in. Not to mention at every opportunity colluding with the prosecution in keeping the facts of the forensic investigation from the defense and public.

We know Maresca is doing it for the money, his share of the millions of euros the court awarded to his clients. It isn't justice for Meredith otherwise Rudy wouldn't be walking free soon and it isn't the truth or he wouldn't have been objecting to forcing the prosecution to release the facts of the case they wish to keep hidden.

Think of how it will look in a dozen years when it has finally sunk in to the ones not really paying attention that they caught the murderer of Meredith Kercher and the odds that two of the victims of their mistaken first arrest still being involved is remote.

 

[Grinder]

Well, that I agree. But this has been going on for almost 7 years. What's 26 more among friends? You think we'll still be posting arguments about it then?

And Go Hawks!!! And hey, Bertha is moving, so things are looking up.

It won't be 26 more years regardless. They will get time served and the good behavior reductioins.

And no Bertha isn't moving:

SEATTLE (AP) - A Washington Transportation Department spokeswoman says the giant machine digging a highway tunnel under downtown Seattle has advanced two more feet, far enough to allow crews to build the next concrete ring of the tunnel.

Tuesday's progress was the first for the machine in nearly two months, since it stalled Dec. 6 some 60 feet underground.

Transportation spokeswoman Laura Newborn says workers for contractor Seattle Tunnel Partners are now "testing systems and evaluating the machine to see what maintenance might be needed before they resume tunneling."

 

[Bill Williams]

British Catholics asked to pray for Sollecito and Knox....

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2014/01/10/lets-pray-for-amanda-knox-and-rafaele-sollecito/

They are victims of the Italian obsession with conspiracy theories
By FR ALEXANDER LUCIE-SMITH on Friday, 10 January 2014

There is one thing worth bearing in mind: there is no trustworthy forensic evidence that puts either Knox or Sollecito in the room where the murder happened. The evidence on which they were convicted was an elaborate theory that Meredith Kercher was killed in as sex game that went wrong. At first there was mention of some sort of Satanic inspiration to this sex game, but that talk has long been abandoned by the prosecution.

We are no longer being asked to believe that Miss Knox is a witch, or that Sollecito was her dumb accomplice; but we are being asked to believe that Knox and Sollecito were the sort of people who had sex a quatre, where there is absolutely no hint of this in their previous histories. Indeed, it is quite incredible that Sollecito, who had known Knox but a week, and who has never met Guede, the other supposed participant, should ever have indulged in such perversion, given his personal history; nor is there any reason at all to suppose Knox would have found a four handed sex game at all alluring.

Knox and Sollecito are the innocent victims of the Italian love, nay, obsession with, conspiracy theories. There was no conspiracy. Meredith Kercher was killed by Rudy Guede, who is now serving 16 years for the crime.

 

[AmyStrange]

Kind of like the mixed blood...

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The "unrelenting stream of venom" is typical guilter projection. In reality, there has been an unrelenting stream of venom against the victims of wrongful prosecution and their families.

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Yup. It shows that they're not thinking straight when they can't see that what they're doing is way worse or at least equal to. It's a mixed combo of confirmation bias, ego, and group think. If it weren't for who the meanness is directed at (which is their street face), it would be an interesting case study... hell, it's still an interesting case study,

d

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[Bill Williams]

Mark Olshaker, co-author with John Douglas, calls out yellow-journalist Andrea Vogt for her continued PR effort against two innocent people:

http://mindhuntersinc.com/pandering-to-existing-beliefs/

By Mark Olshaker On January 22, 2014

When John Douglas and I got into research on the case, we were struck by how different the media treatment was in Italy, the United Kingdom and the United States. It was as if they were describing three different cases. The reason, I think, is that they are pandering to already accepted beliefs – beliefs, not rationally considered conclusions – rather than presenting unvarnished facts.

And this phenomenon continues. To wit: an article last week by American Andrea Vogt in the British publication, The Week.

The article is entitled Amanda Knox’s fugitive fears: she’s right to be worried, and the entire tone suggests a condescending contempt for Amanda and her situation and an implication that even though she’s gotten away with murder, she might not this time. Even the term “fugitive fears” in the headline implies wrongdoing and guilt.

He's particularly hard on Vogt for her guilt-like assumptions. One of which is Vogt's claim that Knox ignored her own lawyer's advice and did not return to Italy for trial. Talk about factoids....

 

[Strozzi]

Playing the race card.... fortunately it did not work for Mignini, and the various prosecution efforts since have abandoned the idea.

Actually, playing the race card has worked for Mignini and his colleagues. They persuaded Lumumba to shut up and change his story about his treatment at the hands of the PLE if he knows what's good for him and his family as immigrants to Italy, and to get Lumumba to re-direct his anger at Amanda for buckling in interrogation and pushing him, a black man, in front of the police truck.

 

[JREF2010]

Mark Olshaker, co-author with John Douglas, calls out yellow-journalist Andrea Vogt for her continued PR effort against two innocent people:

http://mindhuntersinc.com/pandering-to-existing-beliefs/

By Mark Olshaker On January 22, 2014



He's particularly hard on Vogt for her guilt-like assumptions. One of which is Vogt's claim that Knox ignored her own lawyer's advice and did not return to Italy for trial. Talk about factoids....

I liked his line. And sixth, to say, “motive doesn’t matter” in a case like this tests all limits of absurdity.

 

[acbytesla]

It won't be 26 more years regardless. They will get time served and the good behavior reductioins.

And no Bertha isn't moving:

SEATTLE (AP) - A Washington Transportation Department spokeswoman says the giant machine digging a highway tunnel under downtown Seattle has advanced two more feet, far enough to allow crews to build the next concrete ring of the tunnel.

Tuesday's progress was the first for the machine in nearly two months, since it stalled Dec. 6 some 60 feet underground.

Transportation spokeswoman Laura Newborn says workers for contractor Seattle Tunnel Partners are now "testing systems and evaluating the machine to see what maintenance might be needed before they resume tunneling."

The barge for moving soil is back and Bertha is expected to continue tunneling on Thursday.

 

[Strozzi]

But the Corte Suprema di Cassazione is a little like a senior citizen with memory issues. They will forget what they said in the last motivation. They forgot that the sex game theory had been dropped this time.

I have a few questions and ask anyone who can to please help me understand.

The US Supreme Court hears 80 or 100 cases a year. One year in the 1950's the US Supreme Court heard 150 cases, a record in modern memory.

The Court of Cessation, in contrast, reviews something like 80,000 cases a year which must mean in practice that in almost all cases the court is a rubber stamp. How does the court actually consider so many cases? Does one clerk to one judge consider the filing of a case and recommend to the judge that he rule a certain way? Does one judge buy into a case and all the other judges almost automatically go along because they know nothing about it but what that one judge or his clerk have told them? If this is correct, then it would seem that attorneys/prosecutors need to get to/persuade the clerk assigned to the case or to his judge who is essentially responsible for deciding that case.

How extensive are factions and factional struggles among senior judges in Italy? Does politics really play a part in how judges rule?

Why would an appellate judge who is an experienced senior judge pay much attention to the scenario laid out by a Court of Cessation judge? In this appeal not even the prosecutor gave voice to the Cessation's theory of a sex game.

 

[AmyStrange]

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I wonder what the race percentage of the PGP camp is. Has anyone ever done a profile or study of this? Just curious,

d

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[Kaosium]

I didn't think the consultants stayed in the van but I am not certain of that.

The defense would not have to release the photo/s to the media. If the photos taken became part of the case file deposited in court by either side, is it possible that they were available to journalists who made inquiry to have copies of them? I don't know if that is what happened just putting it out there.

As you'll recall, the article specifically sourced the pictures to "Italian police."

"This is the grim, blood-soaked scene inside the Italian apartment where British student Meredith Kercher was sexually assaulted and brutally murdered.

In chilling new photographs released by Italian police today, the full scale of the horror that confronted police when they entered the apartment in Perugia becomes clear.

In one shocking image, pools of blood lie at the foot of a wardrobe on which photographs of Meredith and friends have been pinned.

The bathroom (left) and the corner of Meredith's bedroom are covered in blood

The images also show the apartment's bathroom sink and walls smeared with blood."

Can you think of a reason why the Daily Mail would make a gross error and wrongly attribute the photos to police if they were not? Especially considering the possibility of sanction from those police and the prosecutor who did indeed file charges against journalists whose articles displeased him?

 

[Antony]

The original judge "...the Hon. Brian Hill, who is on public record saying that in his entire career he had never seen a single case where the evidence of guilt was so 'compelling', a statement which, based on the fact that the evidence was essentially non-existent, would seem to indicate a certain level of bias against the accused..." This statement proves that Massei is not the only judge in the world who is too thick to be presiding over serious criminal trials.

ISTR the presiding judge in the Birmingham Six trial saying something very similar. This was when convicting the accused solely on the basis of alleged traces of nitroglycerine (which turned out to be cellulose from playing cards) on the hands of 5 of the group.

 

[Strozzi]

Mary methinks that PQ will be sending you a message about the FBI and KGB showing up unannounced. Mach will tell you that is mafia talk. Boy oh boy.

I agree with Mary's comment that Rudy could be in danger (from the police or their handymen). Rudy could do a lot of harm to the PLE if he tells what he did that night and how the police and prosecutor roped in innocent people. Suppose his lawyer told him to play along and not rock the boat and he discusses that. If I were a journalist like the apprentice who befriended Curatolo, Quintavall and Nara, I would be salivating at the chance to befriend Rudy with a concealed recorder turned on.

What would make Rudy talk? Liquor could loosen his tongue. Drugs. Money. Even just a good friend willing to listen.

 

[acbytesla]

As you'll recall, the article specifically sourced the pictures to "Italian police."



Can you think of a reason why the Daily Mail would make a gross error and wrongly attribute the photos to police if they were not? Especially considering the possibility of sanction from those police and the prosecutor who did indeed file charges against journalists whose articles displeased him?

Can you think of a reason the same publication would release a totally false story the last time a verdict was issued?

 

[Kaosium]

I did ask halides1 a while back if he was in favour of stiffer sentences for crimes of this kind in Italy and he (and others) were very gung ho - but apparently only for black convicts.

How much are you in favor of stiffer sentences for innocent defendants? Could you in good conscience favor a stiff sentence for someone you thought innocent after an exhaustive inquiry into the case?

Do you think it possible that some people might base their judgements on that factor rather than the amount of melanin in the skin of the defendants?

 

[Dan O.]

Have you seen these boys?

 

[AmyStrange]

I predict Not Guilty...

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I have nothing to back me up on this, and I do have a sinking feeling that it's going to turn out to be Guilty. It's just a feeling I have, but I am also a big believer in positive energy, except maybe not in the way that most people think it works.

One thing I've learned in my long life, is it is just as depressing to predict something bad is going to happen and have it happen, as it is to believe and wish, with all your might, that something bad WASN'T going to happen and it still happens.

IN SHORT, preparing for the worst really doesn't make it easier to take when the worse does happen.

What I've also learned, and maybe this is just how my own personal psychology works, is that it's more fun to believe and predict that the best outcome happens, even if you end up being wrong.

ANOTHER PREDICTION: I predicted before this football season started that Russell Wilson and the Seahawks were going to the Super ("Pot") Bowl and they were (and are) going to win it.

I predicted this before the season even started. Even before the pre-season started. No one believed me. But, I kept predicting it, and every game we won, my roommate got more and more excited.

My roommate was a naysayer and I was so sure and that now it feels so sweet to at least be right about the Hawks going to the big dance, but it was even sweeter because I had been so confident and never backed down.

RESULTS: Since I feel just as bad when I predict a loss or not, why not predict and believe in a best case scenario, especially if you end up being right?

The feeling is just amazing.

WARNING: Tentative studies suggest that this does not work as well when predicting gloom and doom or evil...

d

ETA It's selfish, I admit it
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[Kaosium]

Can you think of a reason the same publication would release a totally false story the last time a verdict was issued?

Actually yes, if you're referring to them having both 'innocent' and 'guilty' versions of the story ready to release the instant the verdict was announced, and an error causing the 'guilty' one to hit the ether first.

Competition is fierce in journalism these days, in part for the reasons David Simon referred to in his blog that Kwill recently linked. That they hit the wrong button and released the wrong story in the attempt to lead the ether in the reporting of it is embarrassing as hell, but I can understand how that mistake may be made in this new journalism economy.

That doesn't mean I like it, but then again I doubt anyone in that industry does.