Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

Chris_Halkides · Jan 29, 2014

When will sloppy forensic practices change

Wildhorses,

IMO change won't happen because a forensic scientist politely tells a forensic police department what they are doing wrong. Instead, the only way that forensic practices will change is when prosecutors lose cases due to mistakes and sloppiness, and it is true for all jurisdictions, not just Italy. Therefore, one reason to raise a ruckus over this case or any other false conviction based on bad forensics is to effect change.

Bill Williams · Jan 29, 2014

The legacy of guilterdom, as far as I am concerned. A killer is getting out of jail this year for the sake of going after two innocents for some other agenda than justice.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00I3QZ7G0/ref=tsm_1_fb_lk

The credentials of John Douglas and Douglas Preston are unimpeachable.

"Amidst all the sound and fury surrounding the Italian murder trial of American student Amanda Knox, two people have been largely forgotten. One is the victim, Meredith Kercher, who was by all accounts a lovely, intelligent young woman full of great promise. Her murder was a terrible tragedy. The other is Rudy Guede—the actual murderer. This book shows that the evidence against Guede was overwhelming from the beginning. That he committed the crime alone, without help, is also beyond question. Guede was convicted in a fast-track trial and sentenced to 16 years in prison. But with time off for good behavior, he may be able to gain daytime release privileges as early as this year. Meanwhile, the endless judicial persecution of Amanda and her Italian friend and co-defendant, Raffaele Sollecito, continues unabated. Many people I speak to are still uncertain what to believe. They wonder if, perhaps, Amanda and Raffaele might have had something to do with the murder. Some people find it hard to accept that two completely innocent people could linger for so long under a cloud of suspicion, or that the criminal-justice system of a civilized European country could manufacture guilt out of thin air. Others have been influenced by the online industrial complex of Amanda-haters and conspiracy mongers, who have spread their falsehoods everywhere on the web. Many have made up their minds, but there are others who genuinely want to know the truth. "The Forgotten Killer", prepared by some of the country’s leading experts in criminology, forensic science, crime scene analysis, and legal procedure, at long last presents the truth..." - Douglas Preston in Chapter One of "The Forgotten Killer: Rudy Guede and the Murder of Meredith Kercher".

RWVBWL · Jan 29, 2014

9:27pm?

Diocletus said:
Do you have a quote for this? I am interested in the 9:27 reference.

Hiya Diocletus,
Frank Sfarzo wrote of it back in March of 2009:

Today he repeated that as soon as he arrives to the square, at 21:30-22:00, he starts to read a newspaper and while reading he's looking around and sees Amanda and Raffaele. The difference from his previous deposition is that now he sees them as soon as he starts reading, at 21:30-22:00, or just at 21:30, as it will emerge later.
They were Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, no doubt, he pointed at them in the courtroom.
So he sees them from the beginning, from 21:30, and he keeps seeing them, talking, arguing, going to the rail to watch below... until at least 23:30, when the discotheque buses start to leave.
It seems that he's been working hard to remember, but probably he forgot that Amanda and Raffaele had to be there only after 22:30-23:00.
He maybe thought that having seen the lovebirds only for a few minutes wasn't enough and in an effort to be credible he extended their presence to the whole period, providing them, in this way, an alibi for the crime. Or proving that his testimony was a fake.

No surprise, that's what happens when you rely on lunatics. People who can learn the same lesson a hundred times and still getting it wrong.
Curatolo was so worried about fixing the time that besides recalling that he goes to check it to the electronic board --on the other side of the square-- he added, today, that he also checks it on his own watch. But he had always stated not to have a watch. So Massei asked him to show his watch. And he didn't have it. Massei asked him if he could be more precise about his arrival time because 21:30-22:00 was a bit vague. And he did get more precise, much more precise: 21:27-21:28!This is Antonio Curatolo, he can tell you exactly what you want to hear, he can tell you anything and the opposite of anything. He, as I always said, is simply a psychiatric case.
Now everyone realizes it. Even those who went to interview him and found him totally rational and credible. Even the judge Micheli, probably, while reading about today's hearing. Everyone was laughing at him in the courtroom. At him and at the heroes who discovered the Superwitness in that hard to reach place, the street.

Link:
http://web.archive.org/web/20101015182429/http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009_03_01_archive.html

RandyN · Jan 29, 2014

RoseMontague said:
Since she both collected and tested some of the evidence and her boss ended up being a paid consultant for the prosecution, I think it is pretty obvious that she was biased. The fact that she hid evidence and had a strategy of what to release and when further confirms this. Ignoring the too low reading and cranking up the machine while forgetting a sample was LCN is icing on the cake. And hiding the negative TMB tests on the Luminol prints makes it pretty obvious to any neutral observer. It would not surprise me at all if she went further and planted evidence.

Me neither!

Except that I think she did it all for love...errr at the behest of Biondo her boss. The insider who knew that the shoe print was fading fast. Who else could order a return? What was the official reason for return? The defense were warned...does no one have this story?

The bra clasp collection production number stands out in rather stark contrast to the almost comical collection of the apparently less important outer blue jacket. This "useless" evidence is in fact tampered with on camera by the tech righting the inside out sleeves which is factual and critical evidence in the case. How do these things go unchallenged or even unmentioned?

Strozzi...what Anglo said. I meant Lumumba and the knife. The logical investigative thing to do on Nov 6th...once they decided to arrest Lumumba would have been to secure and collect the evidence to used against him...nothing can be found that the police even considered doing this which is illogical and has to be something other than sheer incompetence...no one can be as stupid as the police appear to be in the instance...even with Mignini in charge...they should have done more...far more. But they did nothing. Well they beat him and kept him without food and water or lawyer for >10 hours according to his interview.

But no internal investigations? No judge asking about illegal interrogations or detentions. All very odd and mafia and sinister like. Two weeks and no record of a Lumumba knife test. The killer... but no test. No collection AFAWK. Odd...very odd.

I still think Lumumba boosted Guede up to the window grate. His phone pinged a tower near the cottage close to the TOD...maybe he opened his bar shortly after this... Black people hang out together. In Italy this would be even more important since they are openly treated with bias and contempt...just read Guedes letter to his friends...they call him chocolate drop and banana eater...jokes sure. But really?

They knew each other better than Guede knew Knox or RS. PL hung out with students at the "drug steps"...why? Did they sell drugs together? Supplemental income to make up for slow bar sales? What else is a older married man doing at the student hang out where they drink, sit in the sun and buy drugs and even smoke? The steps? Guede fits there...but Lumumba? No.

Strozzi · Jan 29, 2014

RandyN said:
Mary who? Is she a PGP or a PIP? Or is she a he? Toto is dead...long live Toto...wait I thought if someone died ....the defense should have demanded to requestion Toto. Carlucci could have set that up with the dead priest...wait she is also dead...Mignini what do we do now?

See if she floats idiots!

Mary is in Seattle. I remember her because some PGP were badmouthing Seattle as backward. So to show them, Mary hosted the last coven we had at the modern Boeing plant. The coven needed 13 for a quorum and we only had 11. Then Giovanni came and he brought Peggy's head on a pike so we were able to convene. Go Seahawks! Beat those donkeys!

lane99 · Jan 29, 2014

That would explain a lot

Chris_Halkides said:
Mary_H,

I had not noticed your posts before; have you been commenting here long? ...

The Limited View from Wilmington
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RandyN · Jan 29, 2014

Wildhorses said:
Friends and family occasionally chide me for my interest in this case.

They say if I were truly interested in justice, I'd spend more time stressing about what goes in China, Russia, and various South American countries and less time fretting over this case. They say people are receiving far, far worse treatment than two middle class kids -- one of whom probably won't end up in prison even if convicted.

They have a point.

Obviously, the Italian justice system has major problems. I hope as much as anyone that they get to work on fixing it. However, if a firestorm of protest were to sweep Italy, I would think -- and hope -- it would involve more than the sad plight of AK/RS.

Not sure about China but you can check the ECOHR web page and see that Russia has less than 1/10 the number of violations of human rights by its courts as does Italy. Turkey and Italy are neck and neck as the worst violators...and these are just the cases brought before that court....how many never make it there because the defendants are broke or broken or dead? Meanwhile, the judiciary silences the press with oppressive state funded law suits! This is the worst of the worst. I doubt China or Iran are worse. Italy is very very bad. The mafia morals have overtaken the country ...even the judiciary is corrupt. The ISC wants to consider the love between a 60 year old and a child as something worthy of consideration on appeal. These people are crazy! Period!

Chris_Halkides · Jan 29, 2014

lane99 said:
The Limited View from Wilmington
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Whoosh.

lane99 · Jan 29, 2014

John Douglas is eminetly peachable

Bill Williams said:
...The credentials of John Douglas and Douglas Preston are unimpeachable.

Credentials for what? Playing favourites? Ask Guy Paul Morin- whom could be forgiven for believing Douglas participated in a deliberate attempt to frame him for the rape and murder of a little girl- about John Douglas' credentials.

Even after Morin was PROVEN innocent, rather than admit to so much as a mistake (he sure wasn't going to admit he deliberately conspired to frame him) Douglas continued to insinuate Morin was guilty.
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RandyN · Jan 29, 2014

Strozzi said:
Mary is in Seattle. I remember her because some PGP were badmouthing Seattle as backward. So to show them, Mary hosted the last coven we had at the modern Boeing plant. The coven needed 13 for a quorum and we only had 11. Then Giovanni came and he brought Peggy's head on a pike so we were able to convene. Go Seahawks! Beat those donkeys!

I have heard that Mary is moving to China...that or she has decided to stop wearing underwear. One or the other.

I would love a tour of the Boeing plant!!! I wanted to be a pilot in the worst way but my nearsightedness could not be overcome back then. Since, I have had lasik and now have 20/15 in both eyes. But sure...now I'm too old. Sigh....

That would be Peggy the bush counter right? I bet she floats.

RandyN · Jan 29, 2014

Chris_Halkides said:
Whoosh.

Harsh...a faint glimmer of a smile came and left instantly only because of the clever use of word. Its why I always loved George Carlin.

Sure he missed the joke. His loss.

Strozzi · Jan 29, 2014

RandyN said:
Me neither!

Except that I think she did it all for love...errr at the behest of Biondo her boss. The insider who knew that the shoe print was fading fast. Who else could order a return? What was the official reason for return? The defense were warned...does no one have this story?

The bra clasp collection production number stands out in rather stark contrast to the almost comical collection of the apparently less important outer blue jacket. This "useless" evidence is in fact tampered with on camera by the tech righting the inside out sleeves which is factual and critical evidence in the case. How do these things go unchallenged or even unmentioned?

Strozzi...what Anglo said. I meant Lumumba and the knife. The logical investigative thing to do on Nov 6th...once they decided to arrest Lumumba would have been to secure and collect the evidence to used against him...nothing can be found that the police even considered doing this which is illogical and has to be something other than sheer incompetence...no one can be as stupid as the police appear to be in the instance...even with Mignini in charge...they should have done more...far more. But they did nothing. Well they beat him and kept him without food and water or lawyer for >10 hours according to his interview.

But no internal investigations? No judge asking about illegal interrogations or detentions. All very odd and mafia and sinister like. Two weeks and no record of a Lumumba knife test. The killer... but no test. No collection AFAWK. Odd...very odd.

I still think Lumumba boosted Guede up to the window grate. His phone pinged a tower near the cottage close to the TOD...maybe he opened his bar shortly after this... Black people hang out together. In Italy this would be even more important since they are openly treated with bias and contempt...just read Guedes letter to his friends...they call him chocolate drop and banana eater...jokes sure. But really?

They knew each other better than Guede knew Knox or RS. PL hung out with students at the "drug steps"...why? Did they sell drugs together? Supplemental income to make up for slow bar sales? What else is a older married man doing at the student hang out where they drink, sit in the sun and buy drugs and even smoke? The steps? Guede fits there...but Lumumba? No.

I remember months ago some posters were repeatedly slamming the police for failing to collect knives from Lumumba's home and bar. The commentators kept asking Machiavelli to respond. Mach walked that line without saying anything. He must have been a tightrope walker in his youth.

I am not aware of anything you raise about Lumumba, who was an indirect victim of the police's cruel and desperate effort to get something from Amanda -even a blacked-out dream/nightmare - before her mother arrived the next day. I would not find it unusual for Lumumba, who was a popular DJ and owner of a bar near the universities, to know the crowd (some of them immigrants) who hung out on the cathedral's steps (open air drug market). I know of no reason to believe Lumumba was involved in anything questionable. The only difficulty I know Lumumba had was in getting his cash register to issue receipts on the night of Nov 1,2007. Must have been a mechanical fault.

Bill Williams · Jan 29, 2014

lane99 said:
Credentials for what? Playing favourites? Ask Guy Paul Morin- whom could be forgiven for believing Douglas participated in a deliberate attempt to frame him for the rape and murder of a little girl- about John Douglas' credentials.

Even after Morin was PROVEN innocent, rather than admit to so much as a mistake (he sure wasn't going to admit he deliberately conspired to frame him) Douglas continued to insinuate Morin was guilty.
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Doctors lose patients.... profilers get a few wrong.

His credentials are impeccable.

Dan O. · Jan 29, 2014

Diocletus said:
Yeah, I think that's the guy. A few seconds later you can see the point and shoot camera hanging at his side.

Boy oh boy. There are 2 camera boys with little point and shoot cameras in the cottage on December 18th. They look and act like a father/son team.

I've gotten back to a project that I wanted to do for a long time. I am stepping through the crime scene video and recording the video index times of the camera flashes. The earlier photo sets were left intact with all the meta data including time stamps and original file names. On the 18th the names have been stripped. I figured that there were pictures that were left out for some reason and there should be extra flashes from the point and shoot camera.

Here is a table of what I have so far:

Crime scene camera flashes

December 18 part 2

Bill Williams · Jan 29, 2014

lane99 said:
Credentials for what? Playing favourites? Ask Guy Paul Morin- whom could be forgiven for believing Douglas participated in a deliberate attempt to frame him for the rape and murder of a little girl- about John Douglas' credentials.

Even after Morin was PROVEN innocent, rather than admit to so much as a mistake (he sure wasn't going to admit he deliberately conspired to frame him) Douglas continued to insinuate Morin was guilty.

Bill Williams said:
Doctors lose patients.... profilers get a few wrong.

His credentials are impeccable.

Apparently this one went south on Douglas and the investigators because they tried to mask from Douglas that they already had a suspect. The Morin attorney was the one who accused the investigators of "contaminating" Douglas's ability to profile, by telegraphing that Christine Jessop herself had sought out Mr. Morin to repair a recorder of some nature.

Whether or not Douglas himself should have removed himself from this as soon as he became aware of the problem of the potential bias inherent in the way he was brought in, is a moot point.

Suffice it to say that to criticize Douglas for his 100% support for Knox's and Sollecito's innocence, one would have to do the kind of equally masterful, and thorough job that the Morin attorney did in demonstrating why Douglas may have erred in that case. To this date no one has shown why Douglas has erred in the Kercher case... would you like to give it a try?

I think the point is this - it's a little lame to point to one case to draw attention away from an otherwise impeccable record... I mean, even Tiger Woods puts one in the trap and sometimes misses a cut.

That must make Woods a terrible golfer.

Strozzi · Jan 29, 2014

RandyN said:
I have heard that Mary is moving to China...that or she has decided to stop wearing underwear. One or the other.

I would love a tour of the Boeing plant!!! I wanted to be a pilot in the worst way but my nearsightedness could not be overcome back then. Since, I have had lasik and now have 20/15 in both eyes. But sure...now I'm too old. Sigh....

That would be Peggy the bush counter right? I bet she floats.

Randy, even after having lasik you might still be a pilot in the worst way.

Mary is not new. You keep taunting her and you might find out she has been here all this time - lying in wait for you.

Speaking of China and underwear (why you brought that up I will never understand), I worked in China in the 1980's. Everybody still wore Mao suits. Then one day women in Beijing were allowed to wear skirts and nylon stockings. I saw a woman riding her bicycle (Flying Pigeon brand). She wore a green skirt and orange longjohns and wore her nylon stockings over her longjohns. Bunga-bunga hadn't reached China yet!

Wildhorses · Jan 29, 2014

RandyN said:
Not sure about China but you can check the ECOHR web page and see that Russia has less than 1/10 the number of violations of human rights by its courts as does Italy. Turkey and Italy are neck and neck as the worst violators...and these are just the cases brought before that court....how many never make it there because the defendants are broke or broken or dead? Meanwhile, the judiciary silences the press with oppressive state funded law suits! This is the worst of the worst. I doubt China or Iran are worse. Italy is very very bad. The mafia morals have overtaken the country ...even the judiciary is corrupt. The ISC wants to consider the love between a 60 year old and a child as something worthy of consideration on appeal. These people are crazy! Period!

I will look at their report. I think you are mistaken about Russia, however.

From a 2012 Guardian article:

• Of Western European nations, Greece and Italy had the largest number of adverse rulings, at 69 and 32 respectively

• The human rights violations most frequently found by the court were in the length of proceedings (341), the right to liberty and security (241) and the right to fair trial (211)

• The court found 70 instances in which the right to life had been improperly violated – 53 of which were found against Russia
• Russia also had the most rulings against it for inhuman or degrading treatment, at 62 of 183, and with a total of 488 was the country with the most human rights violations in 2011
China is worse. Far worse, actually.

But yes, I do know Italy and Turkey are the worst in Western Europe. Unfortunately, Russia and China take judicial abuse to a whole nother level. And I strongly suspect in Russia the barriers to getting a case to the ECHR are exceptionally formidable.

Don't get me wrong: I deplore Italy's abuses. Let's just say that I understand why my friends point out that AK/RS are alive, fed, lawyered up, and in touch with their families. Sadly, sadly, it could be worse.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/jan/27/european-court-human-rights-judgments

acbytesla · Jan 29, 2014

Bill Williams said:
This truly is the oddness of what seems to motivate a large portion of guilters. Someone at some time tried hard to make Meredith some sort of saint, and Amanda the slut-extrordinaire.

Then, six years on, we find out that neither was all that much different from the other. Meredith watered pot plants, Knox smoked pot. Each borrowed contraceptives from the other. Nothing of what they did prior to Nov 1, 2007, was very extraordinary from the lives 100,000s of others their age pursue.

The oddness of the way this case is portrayed (esp. at anonymous Wikis) is the caricatures that are drawn of each.

The tragedy is that a real-person was murdered; not a saint, but someone pursuing her dreams in another country. There really is no need to make a saint of her. She'd probably laugh at the effort!

But I do get something - someone is going to a huge effort to make a claim about motive - Amanda's motive for being involved was somehow because Meredith was somehow someone Amanda was not. The record simply does not bear that out.

Why this statement is portrayed as "venom towards Meredith" is odd.

So, so true. I thought the days of women having to be virgins to being considered "good girls" was long since past in Britain and the US.

From what I have read about Meredith, she was a fun smart girl enjoying her freedom and her studies abroad. And the same seems true about Amanda.

For years now, the PGP has portrayed Amanda as the slut from Seattle and Meredith as the lady from Leeds. But when the actual truth is exposed. That Amanda was not exactly the trollop and Meredith was not the virginal goodie two shoes, Amanda's attackers get defensive. They rage that we are destroying Meredith's good name only to help get that slut from facing the justice they think she deserves.

I have to wonder though, is this fake outrage? Or is it real? They have turned both Amanda and Meredith into caricatures that resemble only something in their minds and nothing even close to reality.

If Amanda was a virgin, would they still think she was guilty of murder? Does Meredith have to be pure for them to think of her in a positive light? There is a part of me that wonders if this is a cultural outrage, not one of Britain or Italy but of India. Meredith's mother was from India. Are these cultural holdover ideas from her "old country". Or is this just misogyny that crosses many borders?

Just a thought. For me personally, I could care less if Meredith was a prostitute or a paragon of virtue. Meredith didn't deserve her fate and she deserves justice. But prosecuting innocent people doesn't constitute justice.

The only reason anyone ever mentions Meredith's sex life is to point out that Meredith could have cared less about Amanda's.

Meredith almost certainly didn't object to Amanda expanding her horizons and enjoying some of the local fare. Meredith also wasn't killed because of a sex orgy gone awry. And she wasn't killed because Rudy "pooped" in Filomena's toilet.

The truth is, there is no motive for Amanda and Raffaele to kill Meredith and it is ridiculous to suggest that there was. If you don't think so, just consider the motives that have been suggested so far. They have all been mentioned and set aside even by those that have posited them. In fact, the prosecution really has come back to that there doesn't have to be a motive or reason.

Why do you think that is? Because there isn't one.

Kaosium · Jan 29, 2014

lane99 said:
Credentials for what? Playing favourites? Ask Guy Paul Morin- whom could be forgiven for believing Douglas participated in a deliberate attempt to frame him for the rape and murder of a little girl- about John Douglas' credentials.

Even after Morin was PROVEN innocent, rather than admit to so much as a mistake (he sure wasn't going to admit he deliberately conspired to frame him) Douglas continued to insinuate Morin was guilty.
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It was Canadian police who collected the forensic evidence including blood, paint chips from his house and fibers from the girl's clothing. It was also Canadian police who sent an undercover cop into his cell and claimed Morin made statements strongly indicating guilt. It was Morin's own lawyer who said if they thought him guilty they should rule it was insanity, and Canadian courts which appealed his acquittal and convicted him.

It may very well be that Douglas was dead wrong about everything, or it could be the murderer also would have more or less matched the profile he gave. It's not like the murderer was ever found, so your claim to him being proven innocent is rather overstated. Just like that stain on Meredith's pillow coming up Silenza wouldn't make Rudy Guede innocent, the semen not matching Morin doesn't make him absolutely innocent either. Apparently her brother and his friends had been sexually abusing the poor girl for years, that particular sperm could be unrelated to the murder (note that sperm can survive machine washing).

John Douglas was in Virginia for all this, he just wrote a profile. It sounds to me Canadian police perjuring themselves, the prosecutor Leo McGuigan withholding exculpatory evidence and the courts had a whole lot more to do with this than John Douglas, I don't see how you get Douglas as being a part of any framing attempt and he doesn't seem to be on the warpath about it still being Morin either.

lane99 · Jan 29, 2014

Mulligan?

Bill Williams said:
... I mean, even Tiger Woods puts one in the trap and sometimes misses a cut.

That must make Woods a terrible golfer.

Speaking of Woods, if your reply had been a golf shot if would have headed off target and directly into them. And there likely to remain lost.

At any rate, it appears to me you don't know anything about the Guy Morin case and Douglas' involvement in it. But any sensible person who does likely will have serious reservations about Douglas' supposed "impeccable credentials".
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Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Thinker

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