Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[codyjuneau]

Nothing says reliable witness like a confused heroin addict with poor night vision

.
According to the discriminating Mr. Mignini:

Credibile, credibilissimo… di assoluta serietà e affidabilità… inattaccabile, chiude il cerchio, punto e basta

Credible, absolutely credible, trustworthy … without a doubt.

http://www.oggi.it/focus/senza-cate...ch-devono-essere-assolti-la-knox-e-sollecito/

For those not too familiar with this case. Curatola was apparently a witness for the prosecution in two other murder trials. Curatola was the prosecution's 'super witness' in this murder trial. Since then he has been charged and convicted of drug offenses that the police knew of long before Meredith's murder. He was imprisoned, and died shortly thereafter.
.

 

[acbytesla]

Regardless of the verdict on Thursday (or thereabouts) the devil will be in the motivation report +90 days if memory serves, until then.

No, the devil will be the jury if they rule against Amanda and Raffaele.

 

[Bill Williams]

Regardless of the verdict on Thursday (or thereabouts) the devil will be in the motivation report +90 days if memory serves, until then.

No, the devil will be the jury if they rule against Amanda and Raffaele.

Both of you are correct, but CoulsdonUK is conceding this possibility in his statement.

Being from, ah, er, Coulsdon, he's played his own views on this fairly quietly.... but he's hit the nail on the head. A motivations based on an acquittal will simply be a more expanded Hellmann-motivations....

A motivations based on a conviction is anyone's guess. He could simply accede to the "stipulations" of Cassazione - in effect letting Cassazione be the fact-finding court; which would be weird considering the Italian constitution!

Or he could do what Massei in essence did - completely reinvent the case, often simply inventing things, things that never made it to trial, to justify a conviction.

Guilters/haters will have a few days of their own vitriol, but things will settle down when the enormity of such a blatantly unjust conviction becomes clear.

I guess most people, even most Americans will shrug their shoulders, and go.... "Well, after all this IS Italy." They'll then go on with their lives for when the next time this enters the news - the Cassazione "one last chance". That should be in the summer of 2015.

None of this sounds terribly "just" for me, even for the Kerchers. They will have been officially misled by the highest court of an assumed civilized country.

 

[Kaosium]

The videos are still on the FOA site:

Nov 2
Nov 3 part 1
Nov 3 part 2


Sollecito apt.

Dec 18 part 1
Dec 18 part 2

Thank you Charlie, I'd forgotten where those were archived.

Regarding our 'short fat perp' it appears he's probably the one we see unmasked at ~19 sec in part one of the second trip, Dec 18th. That's not Profazio, no beard. It doesn't look like Mignini either, more like a demented Tom Bosley. Maybe it's just a flunky? Of course the one who took the pictures may not have been the one who gave them to the Daily Mail and told them it was blood.

 

[Bill Williams]

What is remarkable about this piece from ABC News, is not one comment below (but I did not read them all) believes in guilt.

The piece got a few things wrong. One main one was Crini's new, unprecedented theory that this was an argument over cleanliness.... ABC seems to think it was about the toilet they shared... but it was a completely different toilet!

http://news.yahoo.com/amanda-knox-39-countdown-yet-another-verdict-070537334--abc-news-topstories.html

But still, my point above stands. This ABC piece seems to be struggling to remain "objective", but I can just imagine this same journalist writing something more akin to a simple...

"WTF?".....

... if the two are convicted.

 

[Wildhorses]

Is Raff still in Italy?

Were "precautionary" measures taken to screw him prevent him from leaving the country?

 

[AmyStrange]

-

Is Raff still in Italy?

Were "precautionary" measures taken to screw him prevent him from leaving the country?

-

FROM the article Bill posted just above your post:

"Sollecito, now 29, will wait for the verdict at his family home in Puglia, southern Italy. His father has said his son is not psychologically able to await the decision in court that day. 'He will almost certainly stay at home and has no intention of course of running away... '"

-

 

[Wildhorses]

Thanks.

My bad. I didn't read the article. I've read so many... and few contain new info.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

spot on

* Amanda was charged with Calunia on the basis of what was said in an illegal interrogation due to the interrogated not being taped and being denied access to lawyers. It is disgraceful to charge someone on the basis of what someone said in an interrogation with no recording which is an independent record of what said in the interrogation.

This paragraph is a wonderful summary of what is wrong with the calunnia conviction.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

The Linguini Bowl

Nancy, you are the kind of expert witness the defense should have engaged to demolish the credibility of all the prosecution witnesses.

Mary_H,

I had not noticed your posts before; have you been commenting here long? BTW, I totally agree with your sentiment here. It does seem as if there were some missed opportunities to knock down the credibility of the the eyewitnesses. That having been said, the prosecution has taken the approach of throwing a big bowl of linguini against the wall in the hopes that one or two strands stick. It must be difficult for the defense to clean it all up, then watch another bowl get lobbed.

 

[Diocletus]

Thank you Charlie, I'd forgotten where those were archived.

Regarding our 'short fat perp' it appears he's probably the one we see unmasked at ~19 sec in part one of the second trip, Dec 18th. That's not Profazio, no beard. It doesn't look like Mignini either, more like a demented Tom Bosley. Maybe it's just a flunky? Of course the one who took the pictures may not have been the one who gave them to the Daily Mail and told them it was blood.

Yeah, I think that's the guy. A few seconds later you can see the point and shoot camera hanging at his side.

 

[Wildhorses]

I have to interpret Raff's staying as good omen -- assuming his passport wasn't confiscated.

I can't imagine risking twenty-some years in prison. Cannot imagine it.

It does, however, make me wonder if Bongiorno successfully separated Raff from Amanda in the court's mind.

I am worried -- like everyone else. Last time, I found comfort in LJ's insistence that the court must acquit. I know what he's saying this time...

I will make one prediction: Regardless of verdict, I predict Amanda will in some way get dinged for not attending the trial. I KNOW it was perfectly legal for her to stay home. I just don't envision the Italian legal system resisting the urge to give her little whack for it.

 

[Strozzi]

I have to interpret Raff's staying as good omen -- assuming his passport wasn't confiscated.

I can't imagine risking twenty-some years in prison. Cannot imagine it.

It does, however, make me wonder if Bongiorno successfully separated Raff from Amanda in the court's mind.

I am worried -- like everyone else. Last time, I found comfort in LJ's insistence that the court must acquit. I know what he's saying this time...

I will make one prediction: Regardless of verdict, I predict Amanda will in some way get dinged for not attending the trial. I KNOW it was perfectly legal for her to stay home. I just don't envision the Italian legal system resisting the urge to give her little whack for it.

I think if the court convicts and immediately orders Raffaele's arrest, it will create a deeper reaction and contempt among Italians who believe he is innocent. The Italian media may take it up and point to the fallacies in the case. I would expect a firestorm of protest and criticism on TV news and talk shows and in the papers from those who believe it is a wrongful conviction. We should hope it happens that way, as it will increase the likelihood that media and talk show hosts in other countries will take up the case.

 

[Strozzi]

I have to interpret Raff's staying as good omen -- assuming his passport wasn't confiscated.

I can't imagine risking twenty-some years in prison. Cannot imagine it.

It does, however, make me wonder if Bongiorno successfully separated Raff from Amanda in the court's mind.

I am worried -- like everyone else. Last time, I found comfort in LJ's insistence that the court must acquit. I know what he's saying this time...

I will make one prediction: Regardless of verdict, I predict Amanda will in some way get dinged for not attending the trial. I KNOW it was perfectly legal for her to stay home. I just don't envision the Italian legal system resisting the urge to give her little whack for it.

Not only would she put herself in jeopardy of being imprisoned again for a crime she did not commit, but it could have greatly injured her psychologically to be in the courtroom and hear the false accusations and also see the court's indifference to allow her side to examine the evidence.

 

[RandyN]

The Supreme Court doesn't care about the disco buses or the heroin. According to them, he saw what he says he saw unless there is some other objective fact that undercuts his testimony.

The best one, as you suggest, is the fact that if he saw them as stated on the night of the murder, then they couldn't have committed a murder at 10:00. Therefore, either he is objectively wrong or they are innocent. You decide.

How can they commit this murder at 9:29 PM or at 11:45 PM? He does not present testimony that they ever left the square. I would say it is impossible to speculate that RS/AK left without other evidence of this. So Toto is out fine...but it remains better if he stays in.

His ability to break one alibi (they did not stay in at RS) is by far overcome with the alibi he himself then presents (they were in the plaza from 9:28 PM until midnight). Jumble up the pieces of this anyway you wish and it still proves that RS and AK could not be guilty of murder or that Toto is a liar and the fact that Mignini presented a professional drug addicted witness (who he just so happened to toss in jail after he used him up...errr presented him) as the star witness.

This I find quite odd BTW...this homeless drug addict does just fine for a decade living outside even during the winter but that very soon after he is placed into a warm jail with a bed and regular meals that he simply dies? Could they really afford to have him on the stand in a third trial?

Of course I don't think anyone killed or had him killed as a convenience but it is still very strange if one considers the circumstances surrounding his untimely death. He was not all that old actually.

Thanks for the video links Charlie...that is definitely not Mignini...Mignini is tall and fat...this guy is short and fat.

Is there video of "the pink stuff" being applied to the bathroom? Was it on the 18th? I would run a side by side split screen of the bathroom on Nov 2 vs the video after the pink stuff.

Not evidence of anything except that of the police and prosecution leaking false or faked evidence...which this clearly would be since no disclaimer was reported in the pink story and besides...who else could possibly have taken and therefore leaked this pink photo...only the police or prosecutor. Anyone else is impossible.

Just a guess but I bet Mignini has some sweat dripping from his ballld head awaiting this acquittal. Karma bieacch....

 

[Matthew Best]

Many thanks in advance! (And here's hoping I don't have to wait another 4,000-odd posts for a reply )

Hmmmm. I have to admit I'm kind of hoping you do.

 

[Wildhorses]

I think if the court convicts and immediately orders Raffaele's arrest, it will create a deeper reaction and contempt among Italians who believe he is innocent. The Italian media may take it up and point to the fallacies in the case. I would expect a firestorm of protest and criticism on TV news and talk shows and in the papers from those who believe it is a wrongful conviction. We should hope it happens that way, as it will increase the likelihood that media and talk show hosts in other countries will take up the case.

Firestorm?

There'll be a reaction either way. I don't pretend to know the Italian innocent/guilty stats. But if large numbers of Italians were incensed by this case, I think we'd see more articles about it.

I followed the seismologist case. It was a little more complicated than the popular press would have you believe -- but ridiculous all the same. The scientific community did react with something of a firestorm. It had no effect.

I don't think this case is of major significance to many Italians. For one thing, it's been made too complicated. There's too much spaghetti stuck to the wall -- or too many traces of old spaghetti stains.

I predict: immediate reaction either way, forgotten in a week either way.

 

[RandyN]

Mary_H,

I had not noticed your posts before; have you been commenting here long? BTW, I totally agree with your sentiment here. It does seem as if there were some missed opportunities to knock down the credibility of the the eyewitnesses. That having been said, the prosecution has taken the approach of throwing a big bowl of linguini against the wall in the hopes that one or two strands stick. It must be difficult for the defense to clean it all up, then watch another bowl get lobbed.

Mary who? Is she a PGP or a PIP? Or is she a he? Toto is dead...long live Toto...wait I thought if someone died ....the defense should have demanded to requestion Toto. Carlucci could have set that up with the dead priest...wait she is also dead...Mignini what do we do now?

See if she floats idiots!

 

[RandyN]

I think if the court convicts and immediately orders Raffaele's arrest, it will create a deeper reaction and contempt among Italians who believe he is innocent. The Italian media may take it up and point to the fallacies in the case. I would expect a firestorm of protest and criticism on TV news and talk shows and in the papers from those who believe it is a wrongful conviction. We should hope it happens that way, as it will increase the likelihood that media and talk show hosts in other countries will take up the case.

Not only that but I think RS could gain extra millions of dollars from a bone headed move from Italy like that. Jailing just RS would start the revolution that the 60 year old pedophile decision the SC considers just a lover sparked but failed to fully ignite.


Lets see what the Italians do with the gas can and matches they seem so willing to carelessly play with.

Personally if I were RS I would be near Puglia...somewhere off shore in International waters on a 60 footer pointed at the Dominican Republic. Yahuh.

 

[Wildhorses]

Friends and family occasionally chide me for my interest in this case.

They say if I were truly interested in justice, I'd spend more time stressing about what goes in China, Russia, and various South American countries and less time fretting over this case. They say people are receiving far, far worse treatment than two middle class kids -- one of whom probably won't end up in prison even if convicted.

They have a point.

Obviously, the Italian justice system has major problems. I hope as much as anyone that they get to work on fixing it. However, if a firestorm of protest were to sweep Italy, I would think -- and hope -- it would involve more than the sad plight of AK/RS.