Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[platonov]

Speaking of emotional and angry responses ..

I'm sorry - I hardly understood a word of this. And it doesn't on the face of it appear to be addressing my post in any substantive way at all. Could you rephrase it in language that an idiot like me might understand? And who is Britney?

ETA: In an on-topic advancement of the topic, what might you have as any kind of evidence that, as you wrote, "the victim’s family ask via their lawyer that Knox remove the link to the MK donation fund from her website"? I don't see the Kerchers' instruction mentioned anywhere in Maresca's outburst. Perhaps you have evidence to the contrary?

See Link

ps Is google not working

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[Bill Williams]

Wow - what a series of emotional & angry responses.

Has the green card story hit a nerve or is there something else going on.
Oh right - verdict due this week. Don't be so defeatist - killers have walked before.
And if they don't walk they will run so all is not lost.





At least you didnt abuse me Kaosium.

As to abusing the prospective bride of Chucky, I'm sure you could.
Given the unrelenting stream of venom directed at the murder victim (and her family) in this case it would hardly be a much of a departure.

Can you please point to one example? Otherwise this exists only as one of many guilter factoids meant to inflame.

 

[platonov]

Regardless of the verdict on Thursday (or thereabouts) the devil will be in the motivation report +90 days if memory serves, until then.

From the point of view of people interested in the case perhaps Coulsdon. Sure.

But from a legal/real world perspective its just a detail if the convictions arent overturned.

Cassation probably OK's and then its down to the police/justice depts to apprehend the convicts if they try to evade justice. No ?

 

[Diocletus]

From the point of view of people interested in the case perhaps Coulsdon. Sure.

But from a legal/real world perspective its just a detail if the convictions arent overturned.

Cassation probably OK's and then its down to the police/justice depts to apprehend the convicts if they try to evade justice. No ?

I personally plan to rip my hair out, tear my clothing, gnash teeth and flagellate myself if this jury says they are guilty.

On the other hand, that will just mean that this thread can continue. So, yay!

 

[LondonJohn]

See Link

ps Is google not working

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Wow. A response to a post some 4,000 posts further on in the thread might qualify as some sort of record!

But since you clarified the obtuse reference that I had sought clarification of in my post (and yes, Google "works", but Google isn't yet capable of analysing context and/or idiomatic usage - be sure to let me know when it does though!), perhaps you could also address that more substantive question that I asked in that same post:

What might you have as any kind of evidence that, as you wrote, "the victim’s family ask via their lawyer that Knox remove the link to the MK donation fund from her website"? I don't see the Kerchers' instruction mentioned anywhere in Maresca's outburst. Perhaps you have evidence to the contrary?

Many thanks in advance! (And here's hoping I don't have to wait another 4,000-odd posts for a reply )

 

[Strozzi]

I guess the purpose of Gelati's above testimony is to prove to the court that Curatolo was possessed with extraordinary accuracy because he said he noticed the police in white suits headed to the crime scene the day the crime was discovered. I am glad the police looked both ways before they crossed the street, otherwise they might have been hit by a Holloween eve disco bus taking costumed revelers to the discos.

I do not understand why they would be wandering around in white suits. Surely they would be putting these on as they enter the crime scene, not wandering the streets dressed as extraterrestrials.[/QUOTE]

Seriously, is it possible that Curatolo saw people dressed in white one day and conflated them with another day? Seeing people in white Halloween costumes (ghosts, nurses, ?) on Halloween evening when they were waiting for the disco buses, and months conflating them with the forensic police in front of the cottage? That would confuse your calendar, for sure.

 

[Grinder]

Any person being honest about Curatolo must conclude that his testimony was pure rubbish and that none of it can be used for guilt or innocence.

Nara and Monacchia are also of no value. Quintavalle's testimony is significant if true, but nothing would make a reasonable person believe it.

The case comes down to the accusation of Patrick, the various footprints and the DNA. Nothing else is real evidence even if true. I mean when they called the police or their families just isn't evidence.

 

[Kaosium]

At least you didnt abuse me Kaosium.

As to abusing the prospective bride of Chucky, I'm sure you could.
Given the unrelenting stream of venom directed at the murder victim (and her family) in this case it would hardly be a much of a departure.

I have no idea what you're referring to as venom directed at Meredith Kercher. The only thing I've ever seen is to de-beatify her, and frankly I like the real Meredith Kercher more than the one constructed after her death by Mignini et al.

As for the family...there's no nobility in a lynch mob.

Also that discussion is far from "unrelenting," they seldom come up. Would you care to go through these eight main threads and see in what percentage of pages the Kercher family is even mentioned?

 

[Bill Williams]

From the point of view of people interested in the case perhaps Coulsdon. Sure.

But from a legal/real world perspective its just a detail if the convictions arent overturned.

Cassation probably OK's and then its down to the police/justice depts to apprehend the convicts if they try to evade justice. No ?

I kind of agree with you. Yet, extradition is mostly a political act, and from where I sit the US State Department would not participate in pushing this through. Jeffrey Toobin and others are clear on that. And, yes, I know that others have a different point of view - and at the end of the day no one really knows until tried.

My view, for what it's worth, is that no one is going to be extradited. Not for this; the State Department actually does get to review the fairness of a conviction..... and make a political ruling based on that.

 

[Strozzi]

AFAIK, it is just the prosecutor's opinion. There was a poster on TJMK who provided some sort of over-lay-photographic evidence to support this "evidence", but AFAIK it did not make it to court.

Then again, the photos on TJMK themselves prove that the kitchen knife-blade was too long to have made the imprint on the sheet... there's a clear mark on the sheet where the blade ends on that (separate) knife and its handle begins. In short it seems to me that TJMK has actually proven the opposite of what they've claimed.

But still... please remember this claim has come out of thin air to begin with.

No one, not Mignini, not the PLE, not Massei, not Hellmann, not the ISC (even in quashing the acquittals) have even hinted at an equivalence between the kitchen knife and that bedsheet stain.

It is only when the DNA evidence collapses completely, and when judges start acquitting based on the DNA collapse, that there's a desperation to keep that knife in play.

Even with the DNA discredited, there remains the question of: is it true that a knife from Raffaele's made it to the cottage? In Mignini's mind it was carried with intent, in Massei's mind it was carried NOT as part of premeditation....

.... and of course in Hellmann's mind it did not make it there at all. Face it, that knife matches nothing at the cottage - not the bedsheet stain, none of the wounds, so why does Crini even bother suggesting it was there?

Well there's a simple answer to that. Without it, there's now no reason, none, nada, zilch, zero reason to think of either Amanda or Raffaele being there that night.

So Crini has to shoehorn it in somehow.

And you know what!? I think Nencini will fall for it.

Wasn't it Machiavelli who constructed an overlay and posted it to his blog with his chosen lines to line up the bloody knife stain on the bedsheet with Raffaele's large kitchen knife? Was it his own drawing or did he take it from another poster on another site? I'd like to think if anyone created a match by using artistic license, it was our Machiavelli.

 

[Bill Williams]

I have no idea what you're referring to as venom directed at Meredith Kercher. The only thing I've ever seen is to de-beatify her, and frankly I like the real Meredith Kercher more than the one constructed after her death by Mignini et al.

As for the family...there's no nobility in a lynch mob.

Also that discussion is far from "unrelenting" they seldom come up. Would you care to go through these eight main threads and see in what percentage of pages the Kercher family is even mentioned?

This truly is the oddness of what seems to motivate a large portion of guilters. Someone at some time tried hard to make Meredith some sort of saint, and Amanda the slut-extrordinaire.

Then, six years on, we find out that neither was all that much different from the other. Meredith watered pot plants, Knox smoked pot. Each borrowed contraceptives from the other. Nothing of what they did prior to Nov 1, 2007, was very extraordinary from the lives 100,000s of others their age pursue.

The oddness of the way this case is portrayed (esp. at anonymous Wikis) is the caricatures that are drawn of each.

The tragedy is that a real-person was murdered; not a saint, but someone pursuing her dreams in another country. There really is no need to make a saint of her. She'd probably laugh at the effort!

But I do get something - someone is going to a huge effort to make a claim about motive - Amanda's motive for being involved was somehow because Meredith was somehow someone Amanda was not. The record simply does not bear that out.

Why this statement is portrayed as "venom towards Meredith" is odd.

 

[Diocletus]

I do not understand why they would be wandering around in white suits. Surely they would be putting these on as they enter the crime scene, not wandering the streets dressed as extraterrestrials

Seriously, is it possible that Curatolo saw people dressed in white one day and conflated them with another day? Seeing people in white Halloween costumes (ghosts, nurses, ?) on Halloween evening when they were waiting for the disco buses, and months conflating them with the forensic police in front of the cottage? That would confuse your calendar, for sure.

He didn't see squat on Halloween or the day after. He read it in the newspaper while he was tripping out on heroin and he thought he really saw it. Unfortunately, in Italy, to prove the infirmity of a heroin-addled witness, you need "scientific" testimony. Also, when the lab doesn't follow the right procedures, nevertheless, the defendant has to "prove" contamination.

Pedophile rape is A-Okay, though, as long as the rapist says it was "true love."

Clowns.

 

[Kaosium]

From the point of view of people interested in the case perhaps Coulsdon. Sure.

But from a legal/real world perspective its just a detail if the convictions arent overturned.

Cassation probably OK's and then its down to the police/justice depts to apprehend the convicts if they try to evade justice. No ?

What makes you think Amanda is in danger of extradition? I found something in one of your tabloids the other day which I found interesting. Dunno about the veracity of it, but I don't recall it being posted here so maybe we can discuss it and determine that.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/454726/Amanda-Knox-s-fears-over-Italian-retrial

Incidentally, when viewing the crime scene videos did you ever wonder how that pile of trash got where the bra clasp was found? You can see clearly from the videos taken November 3rd there was a chair there and a newspaper and a clipping under the desk, other than that everything else was clean. On the return trip there was a pile of trash, not to mention all the stuff piled on the bed.

How did that happen, and do you think the ones who did that thought there was ever going to be another forensic 'investigation' in that room? Did they maybe sweep some of that stuff up and that's how it got there in that pile by the desk?

 

[Diocletus]

What makes you think Amanda is in danger of extradition? I found something in one of your tabloids the other day which I found interesting. Dunno about the veracity of it, but I don't recall it being posted here.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/454726/Amanda-Knox-s-fears-over-Italian-retrial

Incidentally, when viewing the crime scene videos did you ever wonder how that pile of trash got where the bra clasp was found? You can see clearly from the videos taken November 3rd there was a chair there and a newspaper and a clipping under the desk, other than that everything else was clean. On the return trip there was a pile of trash, not to mention all the stuff piled on the bed.

How did that happen, and do you think the ones who did that thought there was ever going to be another forensic 'investigation' in that room? Did they maybe sweep some of that stuff up and that's how it got there in that pile by the desk?

OMG. A prisoner in the US! Oh noes!

 

[codyjuneau]

I think he's gone. Not because he's a junkie, but because it doesn't really know what day he's talking about. So, he's fungible, too.



Well, the Carabinieri performed multiple amplifications, and then told Nencini in response to his question that at least two amplifications should be done for a reliable test. IMO, this is probably the only thing that Nencini will remember about DNA testing. Very easy for him to say "well, Stefanoni did the best with what she had, but alas, there wasn't enough and therefore the test isn't reliable. All of the other evidence tells us that this knife didn't kill anyone, so by osmosis, it's gone."

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Another reason I believe Nencini is no fool. Hellmann asked meaningful cut to the chase questions also.
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[Welshman]

Certainly!

But not the only major problem though. It appears that Italy has zero safeguards in place to cover corruption by police or the judicial system. Nothing like an internal division that examines corrupt acts by either police or the prosecution. If they do have this then how is it explained that while RS, AK and PL clearly had their lawful rights violated during their interrogation and even after their arrest that to this day no one has investigated why those violations occurred and more so, what is being done to assure that those rights are not violated against the next innocent person who happens to have the bad luck of the draw to get a Mignini or some other weak minded, loose principled authority figure on the Italian judicial payroll?

I can not understand how or why this preposterous case isn't investigated by at least the media. Its a juicy crazy case. Not the case against RS and AK rather the case against Italian logic, their legal system. (please save me the speech about every country has problems unless you can provide an example of a whole country getting behind such a ludicrous, stupid, corrupt case against truth and justice and logic)

I guess people simply cant concentrate long enough to get past first impressions or perhaps news has deteriorated to the point where interviews about serious topics like monetary inequality are cut away from to announce breaking news that Justin Beebop has just been arrested for racing his yellow sports car and was probably drinking...sigh.

Italy would long ago be the laughing stock of the world if half...heck 1/4 the irregularities in this case could get some air time. Some in depth questioning and then follow up at the certain ridiculous answers one can be assured of getting. For example like Yummi tries here when he claims that Guede could not be arrested after being found illegally inside a preschool and in possession of known stolen items and instruments of a burglar AND in possession of a deadly weapon or two. How is that explained away? No one actually thinks Yummi is correct do they? That Milan police cant jail Guede? Why no real details about this case? The school break-in and robbery case and simple release by police? This is a huge gaping hole that remains unexplained ...did anyone even ask? A matter that involves a killer just days before he commits a brutal murder. How is it possible to keep everyone in the whole world apparently from not asking for the facts of this pre-murder matter?

Something stinks in Italy and this pre-murder case proves it and yet no one seems to care enough to ask ...no demand answers. Answers that hold up to close scrutiny? Not words that defy logic or don't at least demand a follow up investigation. How is it possible for these things to go unexamined? How, why?

RS family is subjected to 39 thousand plus wiretapped intrusions into their private lives...and yet in interviews Mignini states that budgetary constraints limit recording interrogations? How can the reporter not throw that back into his fat face? How can the follow up questions be dodged or worse not even asked?

The way lying has always worked out for me was that the crazier the story got the less someone thought I was telling the truth. Is there some sort of anti truth matter that is in control of Italy? Where one just says stupid stuff and everyone says... OH...OK then that's fine. Sure its crazy and impossible and contradictory but sure we stand behind your lie to the death? Ignore that follow up inquiry...in fact file a lawsuit against the questioner. Don't worry Italy will foot the bill against the truth seeker. In fact we will punish him into silence.

And these people are not foolish why?

Despite the injustice which happened in the case of Amanda and Raffaele, I tried to keep an open mind on the Italian justice system and I did not want to completely write off the Italian justice system as corrupt and backward but as time goes this case has demonstrated numerous problems with the Italian justice system :-

* Amanda was charged with Calunia on the basis of what was said in an illegal interrogation due to the interrogated not being taped and being denied access to lawyers. It is disgraceful to charge someone on the basis of what someone said in an interrogation with no recording which is an independent record of what said in the interrogation.

* The police and prosecution are able to get away with suppressing evidence. The defence asked for EDF files, CCTV footage of the area between the cottage and Raffaele's apartment and experts to examine the damaged computers. All these were denied. How can the defense do their jobs if they are denied access to information they need?

* No action is taken over police and prosecution misconduct. The police broke the law when interrogating Amanda and Raffaele, released lies to the media and lied in court. The police and the prosecution could do this freely and absolutely nothing was done about it.

* Forensic evidence can be used even if regulations and protocols are not followed. Stefanoni's lab did not have the facilities to carry out LCN DNA testing and did not follow the correct procedures. Despite this the knife was used as evidence.

* Dubious forensic evidence which totally goes against logic and common sense can be used. Basic common sense says that if a knife does not match the wounds, it can not be the murder weapon. A knife which did not match any of the wounds was used as evidence.

* Defendants must wait a long time before their trials and trials last very long. A year passed before Amanda had their first trial and the trial lasted a year. The trial only met two days a week.

* People can be convicted on crackpot theories dreamed up by mentally unstable prosecutors as was shown by the body in the lake case Mignini handled.

* When examining the cottage the police made a complete mess and no action was taken over this. The Italian system tolerates incompetence.

* The supreme court is only supposed to evaluate the correct application of the law and procedure. In this case the supreme court sent the case back to trial on the basis of things which had nothing to do with law and procedures. The SC went completely outside its' remit. The supreme court used ludicrious arguments in its' motivation report.

* In the UK there exists an organisation called the Independent Police Complaints Commission to investigate police misconduct. Italy does not seem to have a similar organisation.

Despite the numerous flaws the nutjobs claim Italy has an excellent legal system and is pro defendant. How can anyone defend such a system is beyond me.

 

[Mary_H]

My current boss is often asked for information on effects of drugs - and I think she would find it incredible that curatolo has been used as a witness.

I work for an addictions team and I'm fairly sympathetic to heroin addicts and often find them easier to work with than alcoholics - however, the one thing they are not is reliable. They are usually taking heroin for a reason and are often self-medicating fairly severe mental health problems. Using other drugs and alcohol at the same time is also common - and a 50-year-old with a long history of drug/alcohol abuse is likely to have some cognitive impairment. If he had been taking heroin at the time, his memory is likely to be very cloudy - I often have to admit heroin users and they always have a last hit prior to admission and they often have no memory of meeting me when I see them next. His night vision would also have been very poor.

He would have been seeing pictures of Amanda and Raffaele every day in the papers - and it is not a huge leap to imagine that he started to believe he remembered something, especially as heroin and withdrawal symptoms can cause delusions and memory distortion. He is also likely to have said anything to a reporter if given some money for more drugs.

Nancy, you are the kind of expert witness the defense should have engaged to demolish the credibility of all the prosecution witnesses.

 

[Strozzi]

From the point of view of people interested in the case perhaps Coulsdon. Sure.

But from a legal/real world perspective its just a detail if the convictions arent overturned.

Cassation probably OK's and then its down to the police/justice depts to apprehend the convicts if they try to evade justice. No ?

I would think that if the Nencini court does convict and if Cessation then OK's it, before an extradition request gets far the two defendants will file appeals to the European Court of Human Rights. I don't know if Raffaele will be at liberty in Italy while that is underway, but I am pretty certain Amanda will be free in the U.S. as the US Department of State may defer a decision on endorsing extradition in her case as long as she is appealing her case to the ECHR.

 

[AmyStrange]

Almost everyone in the PGP camp hates Meredith...

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Given the unrelenting stream of venom directed at the murder victim (and her family) in this case it would hardly be a much of a departure.

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WRONG!!! The real venom was on display when the death photo of Meredith was projected by Maresca in court. Why doesn't anyone from the PGP camp condemn that?

That's because this is not about TJMK but really about GWAK,

d

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[AmyStrange]

Saint Rudy murdered Saint Meredith

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This truly is the oddness of what seems to motivate a large portion of guilters. Someone at some time tried hard to make Meredith some sort of saint, and Amanda the slut-extrordinaire.

Then, six years on, we find out that neither was all that much different from the other. Meredith watered pot plants, Knox smoked pot. Each borrowed contraceptives from the other. Nothing of what they did prior to Nov 1, 2007, was very extraordinary from the lives 100,000s of others their age pursue.

The oddness of the way this case is portrayed (esp. at anonymous Wikis) is the caricatures that are drawn of each.

The tragedy is that a real-person was murdered; not a saint, but someone pursuing her dreams in another country. There really is no need to make a saint of her. She'd probably laugh at the effort!
But I do get something - someone is going to a huge effort to make a claim about motive - Amanda's motive for being involved was somehow because Meredith was somehow someone Amanda was not. The record simply does not bear that out.

Why this statement is portrayed as "venom towards Meredith" is odd.

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The PGP camp vilifies Meredith by agreeing overall that it was OK for Maresca to project her nude death photo in court, while I'm sure at least one guilter (if not more) were performing some kind of mental masturbation while thinking about this, and then in the same self-righteously ranting disassociation; they pretend what everyone else does is evil, and everything they do is justified, like practically proclaiming Rudy a saint, all in the name of GWAK.

True Justice my ^ss,

d

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