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Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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If Nencini convicts on Thursday, this issue of "Raffaele's kitchen knife matches the bedsheet stain" will play big. It will have to. Why? Because that's the last tidbit of anything that would mean that knife had ever made it to the cottage.

And after 6 years of guilter, haters, and prosecution promoting an equally silly "two-knife theory", now that the RIS Carabinieri has told the Nencini court that there is no DNA evidence, the guilters, haters, and prosecution have to make a "last stand" on this knife on something other than DNA. (No matter that it matches none of the wounds.) They now have to invent a new reason why that knife is in the crime, or else there is nothing linking Raffaele (or Amanda for that matter) to this.

Has Crini convicted Nencini et al. though? It is strange, because the motive Crini advances is one with no premeditation.... I mean, did Knox know that Rudy had left a sample in Filomena's toilet? Did Knox bring the kitchen knife because she feared a cleanliness-dust-up was going to break out?

The only reason to invent out of whole cloth the "kitchen knife is a match for the bedsheet stain" is to keep Knox/Sollecito connected to this crime.

It has taken two fairly recent inventions by the Crini prosecution to suggest this - and he just may pull it off.

Mignini himself was too embarrassed to suggest something against the obvious - it's why Mignini invented the two-knife theory. Even Mignini ended the Hellmann trial suggesting the was no motive to this crime; I mean, he'd flown about four of them to no avail. Both Massei AND Hellmann saw no mitve for AK and/or RS to have been involved in this.

To my way of thinking, the Nencini court is now hemmed in. That court still may convict, but they will convict on at least two inventions that not even Cassazione entertained, and those two inventions were not even a reason for Cassazione overturning the acquittals.

But for a conviction to hold, Nencini needs to accept both of them - Nencini needs to accept that the bedsheet stain is a match for the kitchen knife.... because no DNA, no match on the bedsheet.... then there's no reason for that knife to even be entertained....

..... except that Italian justice has kept that knife in this crime against all logic for more than 6 years.

More than six years.

They cannot let go of it now.



Bill, you might be right, but I would suggest another possibility: Nencini might just make up whatever reason he wants to. That is the beauty of this case. As we learned from the SC decision, they may just create a new basis for the decision that we (and the prosecution) just haven't thought of yet!
 
There's a really annoying poster at IIP who reposts the best stuff from the hate sites...

Me, I was glad that something Satanic finally made it back into this case. It hasn't been the same since Comodi threatened to quit the prosecution in 2009 if Mignini took that theory to trial.

Where's Machiavelli when you need him?

That poster cited Satan. Maybe it is Yummi writing under another one of his names.
 
Do you feel the massive level of corruption and misconduct which was carried out by the police and prosecution is a clear indication the prosecution had a weak case. RandyN has written excellent posts on the corruption which occurred in this case. The prosecution destroyed several computers, refused to hand over the EDFs, refused to hand over CCTV footage. Why would the prosecution have to suppress evidence if they had a a solid case?

During the interrogations of Amanda and Raffaele the interrogations were not recorded, Amanda and Raffaele were not told they were suspects and were denied access to lawyers. As I have stated in a previous post, why did the prosecution have to resort to dubious and illegal tactics if they had a strong case against Amanda and Raffaele?

The prosecution told numerous lies to the press and in court. There were several instances where the prosecution lied about non existent evidence. For instance, the police leaked a false story to the press bleach receipts had been purchased. Why did the prosecution feel it necessary to lie about non existent evidence if they had a mountain of genuine evidence against Amanda and Raffaele? The prosecution lied where they distorted the evidence Amanda and Raffaele. For instance, to support the notion Raffaele called the postal police after they arrived, they police lied about their time of arrival. Crini recently lied that Raffaele's knife matched the bloody outline on the bed. If the prosecution had a strong case against Amanda and Raffaele why did they have to disort the evidence and not just present the evidence truthfully? The prosecution lied to Amanda she had HIV and her list of sexual partners was released to the media to attack her character. Why would a prosecution with a mountain of solid evidence have to resort to this kind of tactic? Stefanoni lied about changing gloves. If the prosecution had a solid case, why did they have to lie to cover up sloppy evidence handling?

The guilters often lie when arguing the case for guilt. For instance, the recent pro-guilt wiki was riddled with falsehoods. If there was clear and overwhelming evidence for the guilt of Amanda and Raffaele, why are the guilters unable to present the case for guilt without having to resort to lying?

Some on this board have argued the DNA on the clasp was planted. Why would the police feel it necessary to manufacture evidence if they had a mountain of solid evidence against Amanda and Raffaele?

Do you feel a major problem in this case is the misconduct which happened in this case is barely known. To the best of my knowledge, the media have not described fully the evidence which was suppressed and the lies told by the prosecution.


Certainly!

But not the only major problem though. It appears that Italy has zero safeguards in place to cover corruption by police or the judicial system. Nothing like an internal division that examines corrupt acts by either police or the prosecution. If they do have this then how is it explained that while RS, AK and PL clearly had their lawful rights violated during their interrogation and even after their arrest that to this day no one has investigated why those violations occurred and more so, what is being done to assure that those rights are not violated against the next innocent person who happens to have the bad luck of the draw to get a Mignini or some other weak minded, loose principled authority figure on the Italian judicial payroll?

I can not understand how or why this preposterous case isn't investigated by at least the media. Its a juicy crazy case. Not the case against RS and AK rather the case against Italian logic, their legal system. (please save me the speech about every country has problems unless you can provide an example of a whole country getting behind such a ludicrous, stupid, corrupt case against truth and justice and logic)

I guess people simply cant concentrate long enough to get past first impressions or perhaps news has deteriorated to the point where interviews about serious topics like monetary inequality are cut away from to announce breaking news that Justin Beebop has just been arrested for racing his yellow sports car and was probably drinking...sigh.

Italy would long ago be the laughing stock of the world if half...heck 1/4 the irregularities in this case could get some air time. Some in depth questioning and then follow up at the certain ridiculous answers one can be assured of getting. For example like Yummi tries here when he claims that Guede could not be arrested after being found illegally inside a preschool and in possession of known stolen items and instruments of a burglar AND in possession of a deadly weapon or two. How is that explained away? No one actually thinks Yummi is correct do they? That Milan police cant jail Guede? Why no real details about this case? The school break-in and robbery case and simple release by police? This is a huge gaping hole that remains unexplained ...did anyone even ask? A matter that involves a killer just days before he commits a brutal murder. How is it possible to keep everyone in the whole world apparently from not asking for the facts of this pre-murder matter?

Something stinks in Italy and this pre-murder case proves it and yet no one seems to care enough to ask ...no demand answers. Answers that hold up to close scrutiny? Not words that defy logic or don't at least demand a follow up investigation. How is it possible for these things to go unexamined? How, why?

RS family is subjected to 39 thousand plus wiretapped intrusions into their private lives...and yet in interviews Mignini states that budgetary constraints limit recording interrogations? How can the reporter not throw that back into his fat face? How can the follow up questions be dodged or worse not even asked?

The way lying has always worked out for me was that the crazier the story got the less someone thought I was telling the truth. Is there some sort of anti truth matter that is in control of Italy? Where one just says stupid stuff and everyone says... OH...OK then that's fine. Sure its crazy and impossible and contradictory but sure we stand behind your lie to the death? Ignore that follow up inquiry...in fact file a lawsuit against the questioner. Don't worry Italy will foot the bill against the truth seeker. In fact we will punish him into silence.

And these people are not foolish why?
 
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Kevin, let me clarify the timing of the shoe and bra clasp claims. This will show that Stefanoni had plenty of time to process the clasp and inform the Perugia prosecutor and police of her alleged finding.

Raffaele's family located the model of shoe owned by Rudy Guede in early December. They talked about it in many phone conversations while the police were monitoring their phones. As a result, on December 18 Stefanoni returned to the cottage in Perugia to collect the bra clasp. Rudy's father did not go on Italian TV to disclose the shoe and compare it to the shoeprint until January 11 2008. Stefanoni had about 23 days from Dec 18 until Jan 11 to process the bra clasp and "discover" Raffaele's DNA on it before the news show with Raffaele's father aired during the day on January 118. That evening , Jan 11, Italian news carried the offsetting claim that police had the bra clasp with Sollecito's DNA on it.

While I agree that your timing is correct and the reasoning for returning to the cottage also falls very near this reasoning...I don't think a return for a specific item like the bra clasp for example is proven or even correct. Tons of other far more important evidence was collected that day...Dec 18th 2007.

In fact so much was left behind after the first "wrap up" one has to wonder how it was even possible for example to excusably leave behind the blue Adidas outer jacket, or the purse, or the shoes and bloody socks? Who can honestly consider that a tiny bra clasp was remembered let alone as a particular item that needed to be recovered?

Personally I think they went back for the mop. Just consider how carefully they handled this evidence in a f' innnn murder case. Sigh!

A circus show put on by clowns and video taped so that we can all watch most of the disaster unfold. That was the 18th.

Where is the video of the day of the early investigation when we find the still pic of Mignini in bunny suit and holding a small personal camera? The video camera is there. Is there perhaps another better look at this fat bunny? I bet there is. And it is not Profasio or some phone police guy...this is Mignini and the video should confirm that.

Confirm the pink bathroom pic leaker. Mr Leak himself...Mr Liar ....Mr Pants on Fire. Mr Corrupt. Mr Coverup. Mr Threaten. Mr Shut or I sue you. Come on media. DO this freakin story...
 
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Here is a test you can do. Have a friend take 30 photos of you a few seconds apart as you look in her general direction. Then go through them and identify five that make you look dumb, five that make you look sinister, five that make you look ugly, and a few that make you look alert, confident, and attractive. Then delete those few good ones because if a tabloid were to run a story on you accused of a crime those are NOT the photos they would selectively choose to print.
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Ha ha. There is only one photo of me (out of my whole life) that I actually like, but in every single other photo, I look creepy or ugly, plus being bald now doesn't help either. Don't even get me started on baldness,

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I'm still trying to make the point that you can't tell a person's character by their looks, and certainly not by the photo a news site has chosen to use to sensationally portray the individual. You just victimize him/her when you have dislikes based on a photo of the person.
 
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Where is the video of the day of the early investigation where we find the still pic on Mignini in bunny suit and holding a small personal camera? The video camera is there. Is there perhaps another better look at this fat bunny? I bet there is. And it is not Profasio or some phone police guy...this is Mignini and the video should confirm that.

Confirm the pink bathroom pic leaker. Mr Leak himself...Mr Liar ....Mr Pants on Fire. Mr Corrupt. Mr Coverup. Mr Threaten. Mr Shut or I sue you. Come on media. DO this freakin story...

I'd be interested in those videos too, I'm not married to the idea of it being Profazio, it just looks like it might be him as well and the story as published did say "Italian police" and not the prosecutors office and those are different entities on a day-to-day basis. If you go looking through the old reports where the media wrote stories that turned out to be false by and large they can be traced back not to the prosecutors office, but to Italian police, usually to the Perugian Polizia di Stato which includes the Flying Squad and the Postals.

You may have to accept the possibility there are more (and worse!) liars than just Mignini involved in this case!

Have you ever seen "The Wire?" I got the first two seasons on DVD for Christmas and watched it. Imagine the Polizia di Stato as the sum of the worst police characters in that show, time servers, wastrels and fools, corrupt to the core in one way or another. The good police get shouted down and exiled while the crap makes rank and floats to the top, eventually leading to an organization top-heavy with fools and the mission compromised by the machinations of those scheming to keep their position (and pension!) secure.

Weird thing is, a number of former and present Baltimore PD officers appeared in that show, in a sense sanctioning the depiction of the Baltimore PD in that production. It was written by a former crime beat reporter for the Baltimore Sun who collaborated with a former detective in the homicide and narcotics departments.
 
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Have you ever seen "The Wire?" I got the first two seasons on DVD for Christmas and watched it. Imagine the Polizia di Stato as the sum of the worst police characters in that show, time servers, wastrels and fools, corrupt to the core in one way or another. The good police get shouted down and exiled while the crap makes rank and floats to the top, eventually leading to an organization top-heavy with fools and the mission compromised by the machinations of those scheming to keep their position (and pension!) secure.

Weird thing is, a number of former and present Baltimore PD officers appeared in that show, in a sense sanctioning the depiction of the Baltimore PD in that production. It was written by a former crime beat reporter of the Baltimore Sun who collaborated with a former detective in the homocide and narcotics departments.

My favorite show, every single season of it. David Simon has a pretty good blog -- sporadic, but always good.
 
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I'm still trying to make the point that you can't tell a person's character by their looks, and certainly not by the photo a news site has chosen to use to sensationally portray the individual. You just victimize him/her when you have dislikes based on a photo of the person.
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It would be easier if looks actually did equal character, but only people who are lazy thinkers believe that to be absolute gospel, but like Andreajo said (and I agree) it's not easy to get past looks and journalist know this, and they especially use this when they need something to help slant their story.

I remember back when the "National Enquirer" (NE) was in it's heyday. Actors and Actresses always looked good in photos used in "People" magazine, but the NE (which tended to lean towards the disgusting) would always have the worst photos of the people they wrote stories about. They were the same people, but the contrast is simply amazing,

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I downloaded the police videos from the old FOA site. They are probably on the AK site but it may take some searching to locate them. I somehow lost part 2 of the video for december 18. It's probably on the computer I sent to the undisclosed location.
 
Randy, in your 3rd paragraph above do you mean Lumumba or did you mean to write Guede??? (You have to keep your Congolese and Ivorians straight. Lumumba, originally from the Congo, was the owner of Le Chic bar. Guede, from the Ivory Coast, was a semi-pro basketball player and sometime burglar.)
No, allowing for a measure of irony, I think Randy meant Lumumba. As of the 6th he was their man so naturally where did they go looking for the murder weapon - Raf's kitchen drawer! :confused:

Isn't it telling his "experts" aren't committed enough to come out of hiding? I suspect they are figments of his rather sick imagination.
Yes and yes.
 
I don't think the Italian Government will conduct any investigations into the prosecution or scientific police for this case. I do believe that many years from now it will be the focus of Italian and non-Italian studies on fraudulent prosecutions, falsified forensics, and false convictions. This case will be well known and studied. 50 years from now Italians will read about it and shake their heads and wonder what was it like to live in those times.
Amanda and Raffaele, then in their 70's, will be featured in Italian documentaries as the innocent victims of miscarriages of justice. Perhaps they will be invited to lecturer at Italian universities to tell young Italian law, history, and journalism students what they went through back in these times. Filomena, Laura, and Sophie, then in their 70's and 80's, will be remembered for piling on the defendants, having been played by the Monster of Perugia. Rudy will be long dead.
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Yeah, I agree Strozzi. Italians and the world will eventually view this case the way Americans and the world view McCarthyism. This is just one of the reasons why I think Nencini will find them innocent. He is too smart to allow himself to be remembered as the stooge that convicted innocents in a failed attempt to salvage Migi's faux honour.
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Yeah, I agree Strozzi. Italians and the world will eventually view this case the way Americans and the world view McCarthyism. This is just one of the reasons why I think Nencini will find them innocent. He is too smart to allow himself to be remembered as the stooge that convicted innocents in a failed attempt to salvage Migi's faux honour.
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Could he not render a guilty verdict but distance himself from it by saying: 'guilty on the stipulations of the ISC as to which this court expresses no opinion'?
 
Antony, thank you for adding the above paragraph to your larger recent post. Thank you because it gives me the opportunity to add an observation that I have posted before, a month or so ago. My observation concerns Stefanoni's unique trip back to the crime scene to collect the bra clasp and what was going on with the police in mid-Descember when Stefanoni stepped in to rescue a bad case.

The Italian police began monitoring the phone conversatons of Sollecito family members from early November 2007. In all, they monitored 39,000 phone conversatons. The police and prosecution knew through intercepts in late November and early December 2007 that Raffaele's famiy was searching stores in different towns in Italy to find an example of the shoe model that Rudy wore. In early December the family found and acquired the shoe model. The sole of Rudy's shoe is noticeably different from Raffaele's shoe sole, proving that the police claim that bloody shoeprints at the crime scene were made by Raffaele's shoe is false. The police were about to be exposed and embarrased.

From early December when Raffaele's family found Rudy's shoe model, through mid-December and later, Raffaele's father, uncle, and sister repeatedly talked by phone about how and when to publicly reveal that police claims that Raffaele was at the crime scene are false.

On December 18 2007 police scientist Dr. Patricia Stefanoni, based in Rome, returned with her entourage to the crime scene in Perugia to collect the bra clasp. This was the specific purpose of the trip (defense were notified in advance). Stafanoni's entourage included lab assistants and camera and lighting technicians. The Perugia police were of course involved as well, since they control access to the "sealed" crime scene and provided support to Stefanoni and her crew. By arrangement, defense representatives were outside in a police van observing Stefanoni by live video. This was a triumphant event for Stefanoni to recover something sensational and key; she did not send an assitant instead. Don't know if police managers or Prosecutor Mignini feted/dined with her during her return to Perugia.

I contend that there is no way Dr. Stefanoni returned to Perugia with her entourage of assistants, supported by the Perugia police to reenter the "sealed" crime scene, set up lighting and video cameras inside the house, dealt with defense observers in the police monitor-equipped van, went into the house, located the missing bra clasp, triumphenly held it up for the camera, placed it down on the floor to be photographed in a different location from where it was actually recovered - no way did Stefanoni do all this on the off chance - the tiny, itsy bitsy chance that the bra clasp might, just might, have Raffaele's DNA on it. No way in hell was Stefanoni going to do all that on camera and discover in her lab that it was clean. I contend that Stefanoni planted Raffaele's DNA on the bra clasp.
What Stefanoni did not realize beforehand was that as she tested it her machine data output revealed that the bra clasp had DNA evidence of several other males on it. Those data records of other males are supressed (withheld) by Stefanoni. And to prevent the bra clasp from being examined a second time, Stefanoni "stored" the cloth-and-metal bra clasp by immersing it in liquid in a storage container, thus destroying the fabric and metal clasp.
:eye-poppi
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I think there is a very good chance the bra clasp evidence was 'tampered' with. In my opinion the mastermind would be whoever arranged the return trip, and I doubt that was Stefanoni.

The guy with the flashlight may have been in on it. It was him, not Stefanoni that found the clasp. It was also him that spent his time hovering around that area while the others were searching through the stuff on the bed. It was him making a big show of examining it with his flashlight. Maybe some other things too.
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Could he not render a guilty verdict but distance himself from it by saying: 'guilty on the stipulations of the ISC as to which this court expresses no opinion'?
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He has to write a Motivations report.

So in my opinion, his only choices are an innocent verdict, or infamy.

Is Migi's faux honor worth Nencini's dishonour. To Migi yes. To Nencini, I doubt it.

Besides, Nencini just might have a conscience.
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I think there is a very good chance the bra clasp evidence was 'tampered' with. In my opinion the mastermind would be whoever arranged the return trip, and I doubt that was Stefanoni.

The guy with the flashlight may have been in on it. It was him, not Stefanoni that found the clasp. It was also him that spent his time hovering around that area while the others were searching through the stuff on the bed. It was him making a big show of examining it with his flashlight. Maybe some other things too.
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That vid looks scripted to me. They make a big show of tossing everything on the bed to prove just how difficult it is to locate the thing they are looking for, like a needle in a haystack, then they troop out to the kitchen to rub their chins as they stare at the laptop, no doubt looking at crime scene pics then they return and there is a further charade of looking everywhere but under the mat and then out of shot, they 'find' it. Then they huddle round it, somehow aware of the significance of this tremendous breakthrough in their dogged investigation.

Therefore, they are all in on it. If there was fraud then we can be sure Stefanoni was involved and that she was not alone. Consider:

- the suppressed evidence
- the untruthful evidence
- the destroyed evidence
- the inherent improbability of what they would have us believe.

There is a strong prima facie case already, which would only get better with a rigorous investigation.
 
That vid looks scripted to me. They make a big show of tossing everything on the bed to prove just how difficult it is to locate the thing they are looking for, like a needle in a haystack, then they troop out to the kitchen to rub their chins as they stare at the laptop, no doubt looking at crime scene pics then they return and there is a further charade of looking everywhere but under the mat and then out of shot, they 'find' it. Then they huddle round it, somehow aware of the significance of this tremendous breakthrough in their dogged investigation.

Therefore, they are all in on it. If there was fraud then we can be sure Stefanoni was involved and that she was not alone. Consider:

- the suppressed evidence
- the untruthful evidence
- the destroyed evidence
- the inherent improbability of what they would have us believe.

There is a strong prima facie case already, which would only get better with a rigorous investigation.

They might have been told simply that it was very important to recover that item, without being told why. That is what I suspect. I think one or two people planted this evidence, and everyone else just went along with a wink and a nudge.
 
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