Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[anglolawyer]

Yes, we need an update on what Katy did.

nice one

 

[snook1]

My guess on why he ended up attacking Meredith would be something to do with the keys: either Guede couldn't get out because Meredith took the keys with her; or if she left them in the lock, she may have heard Guede fiddling with the keys trying to get out and assumed it was one of the other girls trying to get in, so came out to open the door, and the confrontation went on from there.

As I agree with others that what happened outside Meredith's room is speculation, I have to admit that I was always leaning towards the version that he was in fact in the bathroom when Maredith arrived. It makes sense.

She came back, closed the door with the key and then took it out, just in case Amanda or anyone else came home, and went to her room. Guede could have wanted to leave without being noticed - the unflushed toilet - but just when he got to the door he realized it was closed and what happened later is even bigger speculation, beacuse we don't really know if he wanted to kill her in the first place. However, finding his DNA in her body, is making things even more difficult to understand, for me at least.

 

[Strozzi]

You haven't included the possibility that the item was deliberately planted, having been already smeared with Raff's DNA. Given that the investigators on the YouTube video act as though they have prior knowledge of its significance, before any testing is made, then I don't think that can be considered particularly unlikely, either.

Antony, thank you for adding the above paragraph to your larger recent post. Thank you because it gives me the opportunity to add an observation that I have posted before, a month or so ago. My observation concerns Stefanoni's unique trip back to the crime scene to collect the bra clasp and what was going on with the police in mid-Descember when Stefanoni stepped in to rescue a bad case.

The Italian police began monitoring the phone conversatons of Sollecito family members from early November 2007. In all, they monitored 39,000 phone conversatons. The police and prosecution knew through intercepts in late November and early December 2007 that Raffaele's famiy was searching stores in different towns in Italy to find an example of the shoe model that Rudy wore. In early December the family found and acquired the shoe model. The sole of Rudy's shoe is noticeably different from Raffaele's shoe sole, proving that the police claim that bloody shoeprints at the crime scene were made by Raffaele's shoe is false. The police were about to be exposed and embarrased.

From early December when Raffaele's family found Rudy's shoe model, through mid-December and later, Raffaele's father, uncle, and sister repeatedly talked by phone about how and when to publicly reveal that police claims that Raffaele was at the crime scene are false.

On December 18 2007 police scientist Dr. Patricia Stefanoni, based in Rome, returned with her entourage to the crime scene in Perugia to collect the bra clasp. This was the specific purpose of the trip (defense were notified in advance). Stafanoni's entourage included lab assistants and camera and lighting technicians. The Perugia police were of course involved as well, since they control access to the "sealed" crime scene and provided support to Stefanoni and her crew. By arrangement, defense representatives were outside in a police van observing Stefanoni by live video. This was a triumphant event for Stefanoni to recover something sensational and key; she did not send an assitant instead. Don't know if police managers or Prosecutor Mignini feted/dined with her during her return to Perugia.

I contend that there is no way Dr. Stefanoni returned to Perugia with her entourage of assistants, supported by the Perugia police to reenter the "sealed" crime scene, set up lighting and video cameras inside the house, dealt with defense observers in the police monitor-equipped van, went into the house, located the missing bra clasp, triumphenly held it up for the camera, placed it down on the floor to be photographed in a different location from where it was actually recovered - no way did Stefanoni do all this on the off chance - the tiny, itsy bitsy chance that the bra clasp might, just might, have Raffaele's DNA on it. No way in hell was Stefanoni going to do all that on camera and discover in her lab that it was clean. I contend that Stefanoni planted Raffaele's DNA on the bra clasp.

What Stefanoni did not realize beforehand was that as she tested it her machine data output revealed that the bra clasp had DNA evidence of several other males on it. Those data records of other males are supressed (withheld) by Stefanoni. And to prevent the bra clasp from being examined a second time, Stefanoni "stored" the cloth-and-metal bra clasp by immersing it in liquid in a storage container, thus destroying the fabric and metal clasp.

 

[Briars]

Strozzi Youare aware on the Dec 18th entry to collect evidence other things were discovered. The luminol footprints in the hall and Filomena's room. The DNA on the purse and blue sweatshirt of Guede's.

 

[Bill Williams]

Strozzi Youare aware on the Dec 18th entry to collect evidence other things were discovered. The luminol footprints in the hall and Filomena's room. The DNA on the purse and blue sweatshirt of Guede's.

.... and given that the crime-scene had been anything but secure in the intervening 47 days, and things photographed that day were no where near where they'd been on the 2nd of Nov.....

.... and what does "luminol" alone tell investigators, especially after there are other photos of Scientific Police themselves stepping in blood stains....

This reminder above, "You are aware...." does not fill one with confidence...

 

[RoseMontague]

.... and given that the crime-scene had been anything but secure in the intervening 47 days, and things photographed that day were no where near where they'd been on the 2nd of Nov.....

.... and what does "luminol" alone tell investigators, especially after there are other photos of Scientific Police themselves stepping in blood stains....

This reminder above, "You are aware...." does not fill one with confidence...

I don't know Bill. Every time I watch the video where they finally collect the bra clasp, I am filled with confidence that they just know they will find some Raffaele DNA on it.

Pretty good eyes, I guess.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

contamination versus tampering

There are at least two slightly different definitions of contamination, one provided by Van Oorshot and colleagues and one provided by Norah Rudin and Keith Inman. Neither one involves intentional DNA transfers initiated by the police. I suggest using the term "evidence tampering" or its equivalent for that event. That having been said, it could be difficult to distinguish between the two experimentally.

 

[JREF2010]

I don't know Bill. Every time I watch the video where they finally collect the bra clasp, I am filled with confidence that they just know they will find some Raffaele DNA on it.

Pretty good eyes, I guess.

I agree completely on this one. Just after finding out the bloody tennis shoe print was Rudys, not Raffaeles....bingo! Raffaele DNA! and they just happened to film it and everything! wow! what a lucky find for them!

and if you magnify the RFU peaks enough you can count some of the peaks and not others, and BINGO! theres Raffaeles DNA so Mignini can keep him in jail and the Perugia Corrupt Force can remain impeccable!

I might even add, the prosecution would have to prove it wasn't corruption by showing the controls that the tool was contaminated of all these peaks, and if they cant prove it was the tool that added all this noise, then I will always assume they fabricated the evidence of Raffaele and Others DNA being on the bra clasp.
(the experts did a nice job of storing the bra clasp too, so retesting was not going to happen, only Stefonani's work and data must be used...how convenient for the prosecution)

 

[bolint]

I'm also curious as to why you think Amanda brought the kitchen knife from Raffaele's?

Ask Raffaele. He said that earlier he had pricked Meredith's arm with it, didn't he?

 

[Strozzi]

Memory is incredibly inaccurate and it is obvious that they had spent no time discussing the evening in an attempt to ensure their recollections exactly matched - it's bizarre to consider that they were involved and yet hadn't discussed exactly what they should say to the police

The police recorded many cell phone conversations between Amanda and Raffaele prior to the police's interrogations and arrest of Amanda and Raffaele on the night of Nov 5/6, and yet noted no coordination of their versions of events. The police and prosecution would have used that as evidence in court if it had occurred.

I have read that the police lost approximately 29 recordings they made of Amanda and/or Raffaele talking on their phones in the several days before they were arrested. The recordings would be exculpatory evidence. How do you defend yourself against false police accusations when the police fail to collect exclupatory evidence or collect it and then lose it, destroy it, or willfully withhold/conceal it? Were the recordings lost due to police incompetence or because they showed the defendents many conversations and no insider knowledge of how the crime was committed and no attempt to coordinate alibis or cover up the crime.

 

[bolint]

For doing what? You just said she wasn't in the room. How would blaming Rudy implicate her?

Simply by claiming that she was there and participated in the murder.

She ran away before Rudy? and Rudy let her?

I don't think she asked permission, but don't exclude it either.

Seriously? Rudy doesn't know Amanda any better than he knows Meredith. Do you really think he would risk Amanda telling on him after he killed Meredith? Don't you think he would have killed her too, as opposed to just threatening her?

We know that he liked her, he may have kid himself.

And why would Amanda worry about this loser implicating her if she wasn't involved in killing Meredith?

Is it not to worry about? She got indicted for much less accusations.

 

[JREF2010]

Ask Raffaele. He said that earlier he had pricked Meredith's arm with it, didn't he?

Raffaele stated it was a different knife, he was only theorizing in response to the initial shock of the media reporting about the large kitchen knife Finizi found. He never said he pricked Meredith with the Finzi/Large Kitchen knife.
His lawyer soon told Raffaele the Finzi knife was tested for blood and came back negative and not to worry too much.

Remember this accusation media came shortly following the crushing blow to Raffaeles alibi, when he found out the computer experts had destroyed the hard drives , his alibi he was counting on helping him the day before, had been destroyed soon before the knife accusation. Interesting he wrote the polizia never did explain how all the harddrives were ruined, leaving only his MacPro.

And of course the bumbling idiot computer experts were the same who supposedly studied the Mac Pro. That was the other problem, the information needed to come from the polizia/prosecution or it meant nothing to them. They weren't interested in outside experts at the time.

 

[Grinder]

Ask Raffaele. He said that earlier he had pricked Meredith's arm with it, didn't he?

He didn't "say" that but rather wrote it in a private diary. Consistent with my opinion of Raf, that he isn't that bright a bulb. Guilty or innocent that speculation was stupid and will be completely excused, not even pointing to his ditziness. I will say that when you put a guy like Raf under that much pressure just about anything might come out.

But unless I missed it you didn't explain the most important part of your partial guilt theory.

When the police chief said that the case was closed and expanded on the details of the interrogation, he said his police interrogators questioned Amanda until she buckled and told them what we knew to be correct.​

Naturally if you believe she just made it up out of whole cloth, then it is hard not to believe she had some involvement. It is clear to me that the police found the text she sent back to Patrick at exactly the time a murder would be organized (before the broken down car, Nara and Curatolo the TOD was around 10) and made the leap that she and Patrick were involved. After a couple of hours of using twelve interrogators and a "translator" she "wrote" a statement that clearly weren't her words. Few would write "spontaneous" on our own, right?

Also you haven't explained how putting herself at the murder scene with Patrick would make more sense than putting herself at the murder scene with Rudy. Why did they preserve all of Rudy's evidence if they had no intent to use it?

If they were worried that if Rudy were caught they would be in trouble, why didn't they at least try to clean ALL the evidence away. I won't detail how they could have done it, but there are some obvious ways they could minimize the chances of his DNA being found.

 

[Strozzi]

If they were worried that if Rudy were caught they would be in trouble, why didn't they at least try to clean ALL the evidence away. I won't detail how they could have done it, but there are some obvious ways they could minimize the chances of his DNA being found.

Grinder, I will detail how to clean ALL the evidence away. I think it could be done by power-washing the inside of the house with bleach. I estimate about 75 gallons of bleach ought to be sufficient to really blast the floor and walls. How much bleach did Quintavelle have in stock? How much did he sell Amanda?

Last one out, please remove the bath-mat and flush the toilet.

 

[JREF2010]

He didn't "say" that but rather wrote it in a private diary. Consistent with my opinion of Raf, that he isn't that bright a bulb. Guilty or innocent that speculation was stupid and will be completely excused, not even pointing to his ditziness. I will say that when you put a guy like Raf under that much pressure just about anything might come out.
.

Ive never seen a translation by both sides, on the pgp side its mentioned. Above I was referring to his book.
His book is not too kind to his lawyers in those initial few days. A lot of "don't worry about", "no big deal" "you'll be fine" attitudes seemed to be abundant.

They underestimated the power of corruption and Mignini's mental state.

 

[bolint]

The town was dead. No night life to speak of. Why would she need to change clothes?

Not to go out. I think she was dressed for the job which was cancelled.

Unsure if he was involved in a murder?

Unsure if she was at his place all night.

How do you explain the clasp DNA?

That's a problem for me. I have no explanation for that. In my theory Raffaele did not touch Meredith.

He directly accused the kids of being the murderers in his letter to the Hellmann court that Mignini read into the record.

It was not direct accusation just a ridiculous rhetoric finish. Especially from someone who fully knows what happened.

It has been asked hundreds of times without an answer from the PGP, but again, what did the police chief mean when he said that they questioned her until she buckled and told them what they knew to be correct? It is so obvious.

Simple chest thomping. They thought they had solved it and wanted to show how clever they were.

If you believe she lied at Patrick on her own there is no way to believe she wasn't part of the murder.

Yes. The difference in our views is that you think that it was exclusively because of the police coercion, while I think it was a panic reaction to get out of the pressure and gain time.

I'd guess the dolt never proofed his own book.

I don't understand this.

 

[Strozzi]

Strozzi Youare aware on the Dec 18th entry to collect evidence other things were discovered. The luminol footprints in the hall and Filomena's room. The DNA on the purse and blue sweatshirt of Guede's.

Stefanoni stated under oath that they knew about the bra clasp and went back to get it. That is why they returned. That was the purpose of the trip that day. Glad to see while there to collect the bra clasp Stefanoni and her crew discovered some other things too.

I only comprehend two reasons why scientific police would return to a crime scene 6 week later to collect new forensic evidence. 1) they missed something important the first time, or 2) they got everything important the first time but it doesn't support the prosecution's case, so they want another bite at the apple.

 

[bolint]

(deleted because of double submission)

 

[bolint]

So in place of this she blames Lumumba, which is, by the way, implicating herself? For my way of thinking, this is why guilters should avoid putting together a comprehensive theory of the crime at all costs!

By telling a lie she gains time and may get out of the trouble when the lie is finally debunked, explaining that she was confused. That's what she did. Telling the truth gives no such option.

Ok, this is your right to "think" this. Is there a shred of evidence to support it? Or is this like the prosecution, which just makes up something when the last "something" is revealed as absurd?

Yes, their own utterances.

Then again, what about the knife... the one from Raffaele's kitchen... can you describe why that knife arrived at the cottage?

First, it is not proven that it had been at Raffaele's place at all, before the murder.

But I'm not at all sure that this knife was the murder weapon. For me it seems too big.
I think the real knife is thrown into the ravine somewhere, just as the phones.

 

[acbytesla]

acbytesla, Marriott asked the widow of a Nigerian general to forward it to you. She's been emailing you asking for your bank account but you have ignored her.

I'm not dealing with that Nigerian widow again.... ugh. Last time it took forever to get the money she promised me. Come to think of it... hmmmm