LDS II: The Mormons

[Janadele]

. Who decides the "correctly"?

Jesus Christ, the revelator, inspiration and God of both the Old and New Testaments.

 

[Loss Leader]

Jesus Christ, the revelator, inspiration and God of both the Old and New Testaments.

I think you may have a different copy of the Old Testament than I do. Mine doesn't mention anybody named Jesus Christ. In fact, it hardly mentions a messiah at all. In the entire Torah, there is one verse that says God will raise up a "prophet" from among the Jewish people. Then, of course, we have about a dozen recognized prophets long before Jesus, any of whom could have been the person spoken about in Deuteronomy.

From an Old Testament perspective, Jesus cannot be viewed as a god. God is pretty specific, "“You shall have no other gods before me." Elevating a person to the status of a god is in direct violation of his law.

This just reinforces the point that the person who gets to interpret the bible, gets to win all the arguments. Your belief that you have the one, true interpretation of the bible is nice and neat for you. It gives you direction, meaning and comfort, I hope. However, you should at least acknowledge that there are other points of view and that, from any perspective other than Mormonism, a Mormon interpretation of the bible appears wrong.

As you consider me an apostate, I consider you the same way. The only difference is, I don't care what you believe. I'll never try to convince you that you are wrong or get you to come over to my side. Your relationship with God is your business. Why should my relationship with God be your business, too?

 

[abaddon]

Jesus Christ, the revelator, inspiration and God of both the Old and New Testaments.

Was Jesus, then, correct when he stated there was no marriage in heaven?

 

[Cat Tale]

No, there was no change, the original post was perfectly clear.

Obviously not, look at the responses that you got.
There was also a dramatic change, you went from saying "Christian Scriptures include" LDS scriptures to LDS scriptures "are Christian Scriptures." There's a huge difference in the two sentences.

Christian Scriptures include: The Old and New Testaments of The Holy Bible... as far as translated correctly. The Book of Mormon. The Pearl of Great Price. The Doctrine and Covenants.

post 722 This implies, without further clarification: Born Again, Methodists, Catholics, Episcopalian, (the four religions represented by my parents and siblings) etc. all accept the LDS scriptures, my experience is that is incorrect. Outside of the LDS Church (and maybe a few fringe elements) the LDS scriptures are accepted by the LDS Church and not the other Christian religions of the world.

ALL Scriptures of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are Christian Scriptures.

post 1AAH This implies LDS scriptures teach of Christ, and are therefore Christian scriptures. To that, I agree.

 

[Akhenaten]

Jesus Christ, the revelator, inspiration and God of both the Old and New Testaments.

Please provide links to as many of the times that Jesus Christ is mentioned in the Old Testament as you can find.

Thank you in advance.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Jesus Christ, the revelator, inspiration and God of both the Old and New Testaments.

...as long as you get to add in things that specifically contradict teachings attributed to Jesus in the xianist canon...

...and add issues that Jesus is not said to have addressed in the xianist canon...

...and selectively interpret and apply Levitical law..

 

[I Ratant]

Jesus Christ, the revelator, inspiration and God of both the Old and New Testaments.

.
Wrote nothing. Any words attributed to him are just the recollections of those who knew him... and there appears to be nothing from those people either, the NT was written by second-generation hearsayers.
The OT is just a collection of tribal myth, mostly illuminating a very sadistic and inept "creator".

 

[Janadele]

Considering the length of this LDS thread including this continuance of the original, it has again become necessary to define the core and central role Jesus Christ occupies in LDS Doctrine: http://jesuschrist.lds.org/SonOfGod/eng/his-life-and-teachings

"Jesus Christ was and is Jehovah, the God of Adam and of Noah, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of Israel, the God at whose instance the Prophets of the ages have spoken, the God of all nations, and He who shall yet reign on earth as King of kings and Lord of lords... Firstborn Son of God in the primeval councils of Heaven, at the time when He was chosen and ordained to be the Saviour of the unborn race of mortals, the Redeemer of a world then in its formative stages of development... the Creator of the world, the Word of Power, through whom the purposes of the Eternal Father were realized in the preparation of the earth for the abode of His myriad spirit-children during the appointed period of their mortal probation.
Among the specific teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints respecting the Christ are these:
(1) The unity and continuity of His mission in all ages--this of necessity involving the verity of His preexistence and foreordination.
(2) The fact of His antemortal Godship.
(3) The actuality of His birth in the flesh as the natural issue of divine and mortal parentage.
(4) The reality of His death and physical resurrection, as a result of which the power of death shall be eventually overcome. (5) The literalness of the atonement wrought by Him, including the absolute requirement of individual compliance with the laws and ordinances of His Gospel as the means by which salvation may be attained.
(6) The restoration of His Priesthood and the reestablishment of His Church in the current age, which is verily the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times.
(7) The certainty of His return to earth in the near future, with power and great glory, to reign in Person and bodily presence as Lord and King." James E. Talmage, Apostle.

 

[Travis]

The church I attended considered Mormons to be Satanists. I was specifically told to never let Mormons bless my house, because a Mormon blessing is a curse.

I can remember hearing the same from some Protestants about the Catholics.

The Book of Mormon isn't like other books of the Bible, though. The Bible is a collection of miscellania, translated, retranslated, mistranslated then eventually tossed together. The Book of Mormon, on the other hand, is alleged to be the most perfect text, the direct word of God.

Whereas it may have taken time to gather, translate, and approve the exact right collection of miscellania for the official edition of the Bible, the Book of Mormon started out as the self-proclaimed, God-sent text.

I would not have expected this most perfect text to have undergone so many edits.

That would be because it is, in fact, a book written by men. Just like The Bible was. Or any other book that is purported to be the One Great Book Of God.

 

[Craig4]

Considering the length of this LDS thread including this continuance of the original, it has again become necessary to define the core and central role Jesus Christ occupies in LDS Doctrine: http://jesuschrist.lds.org/SonOfGod/eng/his-life-and-teachings

"Jesus Christ was and is Jehovah, the God of Adam and of Noah, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of Israel, the God at whose instance the Prophets of the ages have spoken, the God of all nations, and He who shall yet reign on earth as King of kings and Lord of lords... Firstborn Son of God in the primeval councils of Heaven, at the time when He was chosen and ordained to be the Saviour of the unborn race of mortals, the Redeemer of a world then in its formative stages of development... the Creator of the world, the Word of Power, through whom the purposes of the Eternal Father were realized in the preparation of the earth for the abode of His myriad spirit-children during the appointed period of their mortal probation.
Among the specific teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints respecting the Christ are these:
(1) The unity and continuity of His mission in all ages--this of necessity involving the verity of His preexistence and foreordination.
(2) The fact of His antemortal Godship.
(3) The actuality of His birth in the flesh as the natural issue of divine and mortal parentage.
(4) The reality of His death and physical resurrection, as a result of which the power of death shall be eventually overcome. (5) The literalness of the atonement wrought by Him, including the absolute requirement of individual compliance with the laws and ordinances of His Gospel as the means by which salvation may be attained.
(6) The restoration of His Priesthood and the reestablishment of His Church in the current age, which is verily the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times.
(7) The certainty of His return to earth in the near future, with power and great glory, to reign in Person and bodily presence as Lord and King." James E. Talmage, Apostle.

But Smith was a liar. Or would you like to tell us all about horses and chariots in the Americas before Columbus?

 

[Craig4]

Jesus Christ, the revelator, inspiration and God of both the Old and New Testaments.

Well, Jesus not being convenient just now, I'll interpret for myself. Having caught Smith in multiple errors and lies, there is no reason to take seriously any book of the Mormon religion. If Jesus would like to make an appointment to discuss my rather obvious conclusions I will write him in my diary in pen.

 

[I Ratant]

All that by Talmage is merely a believer testifying to his belief in his version of a religion.
All religions can have those, and yet, all of them can be in error and all can be (are) just plain wrong!
LDS is a good example of how a clever person can invent a religion that sounds nifty to those that are unhappy with the ones they have been believing in, but all the sincerity of belief does not make any of these THE religion, nor anything more than noises in the heads of the inventors, which is why the documentation of the beginning of the church of the LDS is so important, as it shows exactly that... a disturbed/deluded/opportunist taking advantage of his target audience, for personal advancement of his position in life.
One can go back into history and correlate earlier belief systems to the same terrestial source... one man with a goal.

 

[Janadele]

... As you consider me an apostate, I consider you the same way. The only difference is, I don't care what you believe. I'll never try to convince you that you are wrong or get you to come over to my side. Your relationship with God is your business. Why should my relationship with God be your business, too?

Loss Leader, there is no post of mine which has addressed you as an apostate, nor have I asked of your relationship with God, nor tried to convince you to "come over to my side". You and you alone are responsible for your salvation, it is no specific concern of mine.

 

[skyrider44]

...as long as you get to add in things that specifically contradict teachings attributed to Jesus in the xianist canon...

...and add issues that Jesus is not said to have addressed in the xianist canon...

...and selectively interpret and apply Levitical law..

What is the "xianist canon"? My 650,000-word dictionary does not list xianist in any of its possible forms. Wikipedia, under the heading "Jeremygbyrne/Xianism, states: "The world at large first became aware of Xianism on 06 July, 2006, when Sarah Bennett published her livejournal meme entitled 'Are You Sane?' The meme asked a series of. . .questions, many relating to theory of mind or to ethics, and displayed a 'sanity rating.' . . . Xianism is a singularitarian belief system, and actively promotes a humanity-destroying 'end of the world' event, sometimes referred to as 'The Promised,' which is essentially a technological rapture. . . . Xianism called itself 'more than a religion: a way of life' in early pamphlets, and claimed--often accompanied by sufist texts--that it respected all paths to the transcendent as equally valid. . . . The Good Bits of the Bible (aka The Xian Bible) is a Xianist reading of the synoptic gospels (with allegedly 'liberal influences') which sold well as an ebook in the mid-noughties [nineties?]." Bennett published other "good bits" re. the Qur'an, the Talmud, and the Tao Te Ching. In her The Skeptics Annotated Bible we are informed that the Qu'ran contains more "good" and less "evil" than the Bible--a claim that is highly controversial.

Is this background information what you have in mind when you repeatedly extol the "virtues" of Xianism?

 

[skyrider44]

. . . Your relationship with God is your business. Why should my relationship with God be your business, too?

You contradict yourself. By this very post, you make Janelle's relationship with God your business.

There's an old saying in the LDS Church: Some people make a grand display of leaving the Church. The only problem is, they can't leave it alone.

 

[I Ratant]

What is the "xianist canon"? My 650,000-word dictionary does not list xianist in any of its possible forms. Wikipedia, under the heading "Jeremygbyrne/Xianism, states: "The world at large first became aware of Xianism on 06 July, 2006, when Sarah Bennett published her livejournal meme entitled 'Are You Sane?' The meme asked a series of. . .questions, many relating to theory of mind or to ethics, and displayed a 'sanity rating.' . . . Xianism is a singularitarian belief system, and actively promotes a humanity-destroying 'end of the world' event, sometimes referred to as 'The Promised,' which is essentially a technological rapture. . . . Xianism called itself 'more than a religion: a way of life' in early pamphlets, and claimed--often accompanied by sufist texts--that it respected all paths to the transcendent as equally valid. . . . The Good Bits of the Bible (aka The Xian Bible) is a Xianist reading of the synoptic gospels (with allegedly 'liberal influences') which sold well as an ebook in the mid-noughties [nineties?]." Bennett published other "good bits" re. the Qur'an, the Talmud, and the Tao Te Ching. In her The Skeptics Annotated Bible we are informed that the Qu'ran contains more "good" and less "evil" than the Bible--a claim that is highly controversial.

Is this background information what you have in mind when you repeatedly extol the "virtues" of Xianism?

.
I take "xianian" as a reluctance to write "christian".

 

[Slowvehicle]

What is the "xianist canon"? My 650,000-word dictionary does not list xianist in any of its possible forms. Wikipedia, under the heading "Jeremygbyrne/Xianism, states: "The world at large first became aware of Xianism on 06 July, 2006, when Sarah Bennett published her livejournal meme entitled 'Are You Sane?' The meme asked a series of. . .questions, many relating to theory of mind or to ethics, and displayed a 'sanity rating.' . . . Xianism is a singularitarian belief system, and actively promotes a humanity-destroying 'end of the world' event, sometimes referred to as 'The Promised,' which is essentially a technological rapture. . . . Xianism called itself 'more than a religion: a way of life' in early pamphlets, and claimed--often accompanied by sufist texts--that it respected all paths to the transcendent as equally valid. . . . The Good Bits of the Bible (aka The Xian Bible) is a Xianist reading of the synoptic gospels (with allegedly 'liberal influences') which sold well as an ebook in the mid-noughties [nineties?]." Bennett published other "good bits" re. the Qur'an, the Talmud, and the Tao Te Ching. In her The Skeptics Annotated Bible we are informed that the Qu'ran contains more "good" and less "evil" than the Bible--a claim that is highly controversial.

Is this background information what you have in mind when you repeatedly extol the "virtues" of Xianism?

Suppose you provide examples where I "repeatedly extol the 'virtues' of Xianism".

I have explained before why I use the term "xianist" (not, as you have it "Xianist"). Thank you for the link to Ms. Benet's work--but I have been using the terms, "xian", "xianity", "xianist", and rarely (twice in this thread), "xianism" (not, as you have it, "Xianism") myself for well over three decades.

To answer your question, the xianist canon is the set of books that were adopted as the "definitive" contents of "the bible", which was finally declared "closed" in approximately the 5th Century (given the odd disagreements about the "apocrypha" and the "deuterocanonical" material).

By contrast, the "Christian" canon would be the materials authored by, or accurately, consistently, and reliably attributed to, Jesus, said to be said to be "the christ" (ὅ Χριστός). Most xian churches no more adhere to the words and teaching of Jesus, the Christ, than to those of Winnie, the Pooh (witness the fact that Jesus is not said to have said one single word about homosexuality, yet people claim that anti-homosexual bigotry is a "christian" tenet).

So, to explain again: when I use the term 'xian' (or, by extension, 'xainist', 'xianism', 'xianity', and others) I am reiterating my opinion that "christian" should be reserved for actions and beliefs directly based upon, or closely conforming to, or at least not unsupported by, or (reason forfend) diametrically opposed to, words and teachings accurately, reliably, and consistently attributed to Jesus, said to be said to be 'the christ'.

Thank you for asking.

 

[bruto]

What is the "xianist canon"? My 650,000-word dictionary does not list xianist in any of its possible forms. Wikipedia, under the heading "Jeremygbyrne/Xianism, states: "The world at large first became aware of Xianism on 06 July, 2006, when Sarah Bennett published her livejournal meme entitled 'Are You Sane?' The meme asked a series of. . .questions, many relating to theory of mind or to ethics, and displayed a 'sanity rating.' . . . Xianism is a singularitarian belief system, and actively promotes a humanity-destroying 'end of the world' event, sometimes referred to as 'The Promised,' which is essentially a technological rapture. . . . Xianism called itself 'more than a religion: a way of life' in early pamphlets, and claimed--often accompanied by sufist texts--that it respected all paths to the transcendent as equally valid. . . . The Good Bits of the Bible (aka The Xian Bible) is a Xianist reading of the synoptic gospels (with allegedly 'liberal influences') which sold well as an ebook in the mid-noughties [nineties?]." Bennett published other "good bits" re. the Qur'an, the Talmud, and the Tao Te Ching. In her The Skeptics Annotated Bible we are informed that the Qu'ran contains more "good" and less "evil" than the Bible--a claim that is highly controversial.

Is this background information what you have in mind when you repeatedly extol the "virtues" of Xianism?

I am guessing here, that Slowvehicle is speaking loosely, perhaps using idioms not so usual to everyone, and referring to the Christian Canon rather than to some odd variant of Christianity that has hijacked the name "Xtianism." The term "Christianist" has a long history, though its usual current connotation is rather derogatory and implies the use of Christianity as a political weapon. Substituting X for "Christ" in such words is, while bothersome to some, a custom with a long history among both the devout and the faithless.

It is the case that what is usually called the Christian Canon does not inlcude the Mormon scriptures, and it may be that Slowvehicle is remarking that some conflict appears between the Mormon scriptures and other works considered canonical.

Of course, I also suspect that you know this, and are using presumed confusion and feigned literalism as an arguing point to deflect attention from the possibility that Slowvehicle has said something of substance, but ignoring that possibility, and assuming that there is simply a linguistic problem here, I suggest you search instead for the Christian Canon, which will result in lists of the Biblical and Apocryphal works that various religions consider canonical.

As no Christians other than Mormons accept the Mormon canon, this subset is generally either not considered as part of the group, or is appended as a separate subject.

Wikipedia's Canonical book list

 

[Tassman]

You contradict yourself. By this very post, you make Janelle's relationship with God your business.
There's an old saying in the LDS Church: Some people make a grand display of leaving the Church. The only problem is, they can't leave it alone.

Nobody's religious worldview is anybody's business except inasmuch it impinges upon the full civil rights of all citizens. Then it is very much other people's business.

 

[Craig4]

...snip ... it is no specific concern of mine.

Then why are you here?