Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Diocletus]

The white outside wall which his shoes needed to grab onto had no dirt neither did the bars on the lower window.

White? Looks like a dirty ass old wall to me.

I think there was dirt on the bars. Prove me wrong.

 

[Bill Williams]

The white outside wall which his shoes needed to grab onto had no dirt neither did the bars on the lower window.

White? Looks like a dirty ass old wall to me.

I think there was dirt on the bars. Prove me wrong.

The situation as it now exists in 2014, is that guilters can say anything they want about what is "probably" the condition of the wall, the ground, the bars and any leaves found on a sill or in Filomena's room. That is mainly because the break-in was never actually investigated....

Otherwise Briars would be posting pics of these claims....

 

[Briars]

The situation as it now exists in 2014, is that guilters can say anything they want about what is "probably" the condition of the wall, the ground, the bars and any leaves found on a sill or in Filomena's room. That is mainly because the break-in was never actually investigated....

Otherwise Briars would be posting pics of these claims....

I'm making a judgment here about the leaves by the photo same as you. it was reported that the vegetation was undisturbed and no glass was outside , nor was debris on the wall. I'll also make a judgement you see the writing on the wall hence your unwillingness to have a civil debate. Thats understandable .

 

[Kaosium]

A great summary of this case.....

http://www.jimsnowden.com/2014/01/20/the-unsinkable-rubber-ducks-of-italy/​

The author also shows the Channel 5 climb demonstration.... then adds this....

This too is an excellent piece, thanks for posting it Bill.

 

[acbytesla]

The white outside wall which his shoes needed to grab onto had no dirt neither did the bars on the lower window. Those are two leaves by the way which look pretty pristine and not stepped on. You are right about the sill looking dirty with debris near the leaves in the corner. probably just old leaf dust flaking paint and bird droppings.You would think if his shoe pressed in that area some of the debris would have tracked into the room

The white outside wall is hardly pristine. It is a dirty dusty white wall with splotches all over it. And what makes you think he didn't track dust and dirt into the room and you just can't see it? It's very clear that the residents of the cottage didn't remove their shoes as they walked into their home. That means a walk from the dirty dusty parking lot into the cottage is always tracking similar outside dust and dirt as the climb up the wall.

And contrary to your argument about the only part of his shoes that needs to touch the wall during the climb are his toes and I'm not even sure about that.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

nail and hammer

The issue isn't that their was a leaf or two in Filomena's room. The issue is that the guilters claimed that the lack of such debris was proof that the break in had been staged.

+1
EDT And when one throws in Rep 198 and 199, it becomes more and more difficult to make the claim of no evidence in Filomena's room. As for the supposed lack of glass beneath Filomena's window, there are two problems. One is that they must not have looked that hard, or they would have never let investigators smoke cigarettes there. Two is that the prosecution tested no theory of their own for how the glass was broken.

 

[acbytesla]

I'm making a judgment here about the leaves by the photo same as you. it was reported that the vegetation was undisturbed and no glass was outside , nor was debris on the wall. I'll also make a judgement you see the writing on the wall hence your unwillingness to have a civil debate. Thats understandable .

Was this before or after the dozen or so people that walked around the house? Or did they figure this out during their smoke breaks?

This whole contention is base on casual observation and not anything definitive. Were there leaves below the window? Or grass? And how do you determine what constitutes "disturbed vegetation" if you don't know how it looked the day before?

How is this not civil? Can't you see that there is nothing about this judgement that it is scientific?

 

[Strozzi]

It's called out-numbered and out-gunned. Not a bad move in that context, really.

Briars - Raffaele, after having his life destroyed and living in fear that his country may again falsely convict and imprison him for close to 30 years, may be psychologically vulnerable. Six months in solitary and three and a half years in with the general prison population can do that to you - especially if you are innocent.

 

[Kaosium]

I'm making a judgment here about the leaves by the photo same as you. it was reported that the vegetation was undisturbed and no glass was outside , nor was debris on the wall. I'll also make a judgement you see the writing on the wall hence your unwillingness to have a civil debate. Thats understandable .

Briars, read the post Bill linked by Jim Snowden.

This isn't the last trial, especially in the event of a conviction.

 

[codyjuneau]

Thank you very much for digging that up, Cody! In addition to supporting your claim, that one picture shows quite clearly the oddity of the glass piled there on the outer part of the sill. The prosecution theory requires that window to be open (towards in the inside of the room) enough to allow for the chucking of the rock through it from the inside, but impacting the outside side of the glass first. That glass distribution becomes even stranger when that fact is realized.

.
Yes, there is glass on the outer part of the sill, and on the inner lower part of the sill, but not on the intermediate part that a closed window frame would have protected. My interpretation is that the rock broke through the glass, then hit the inner shutter, opening the inner shutter and deflecting the rock, but leaving the window frame in the closed position. The broken glass tumbled down on both the outside and inside of the closed window frame.

The angled trim on the outside part of the window frame protrudes over the outside part of the sill when the window is closed. The portion of the sill it protrudes over is mostly clear of glass, but the glass does infringe slightly on the outermost portion. The trim would deflect most of the glass, but some could be resting at an angle on the trim when everything had settled. However, when Rudy opened the window frame, any glass resting on the angled trim would be able to flop over a bit and intrude on that portion of the sill that was originally protected by the angled trim.

I am not sure if I explained that very well. I can think it much better than I can say it.
.

 

[Bill Williams]

I'm making a judgment here about the leaves by the photo same as you. it was reported that the vegetation was undisturbed and no glass was outside , nor was debris on the wall. I'll also make a judgement you see the writing on the wall hence your unwillingness to have a civil debate. Thats understandable .

Briars, read the post Bill linked by Jim Snowden.

This isn't the last trial, especially in the event of a conviction.

Note Briars use of the passive tense... the use of the passive tense is a way to get him off the hook from mentioning who it was doing this reporting.

What it Captain Hook telling Peter Pan this?

Was it William Shatner quipping about this at a Trek convention?

What is needed here, to complete what is omitted by the passive tense, is PROOF outlined by the PLE and perhaps even the Perugian or Florence prosecutors.

Or else it remains just a tidbit of internet flotsam and jetsam.... a claim.... made by someone who believes it possible that leaves just happened to blow into Fliomena's window the night someone climbed in through her window.

Remember Filomena? She's the one who was supposed to have been a neat-freak, so much so that the few clothes on the floor couldn't have been from her, they must have been from the rummaging around in her room.... she was the one who did not call 112 at all - while Amanda Knox is criticized for waiting 18 minutes to call. (And Quntavalle waited a year before calling 112... er, wait, he never did, did he!)

Oh wait.... "It was reported that", it was Filomena herself who rummaged through her room, twice - and once was after the crime scene had been "secured".

Now, even raising question about this claim is said to be an "uncivil debate", because, after all, the point is to convict these two with "passive tense" evidence, rather than by 8 by 11 glossies admitted as evidence at trial.

 

[Briars]

Briars, read the post Bill linked by Jim Snowden.

This isn't the last trial, especially in the event of a conviction.

I skimmed his article too many sloppy mistakes. interrogated for hours before she confessed no DNA on the knife ,DNA all over in dust blah blah a little late in the case to not see glaring errors

 

[Chris_Halkides]

unfettered

Am I invisible? This is very much what I said some pages back.

I agree with Tesla that it would be a bigger contortion of logic than anything we've yet seen, but these guys just don't care.

um...great minds think alike? With respect to your second point, I don't see any evidence that the CSC is fettered by facts, scientific norms, or logic.

 

[Diocletus]

I skimmed his article too many sloppy mistakes. interrogated for hours before she confessed no DNA on the knife ,DNA all over in dust blah blah a little late in the case to not see glaring errors

I'm afraid you missed the point of the article.

 

[anglolawyer]

Hi Anglo! Good to see you posting again!

As far as I'm concerned that goddamn lamp ought to be shoved so far up his posterior we could flick the switch and his head would light up like a jack-o-lantern.

. Yo Kaosium!

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo the lamp is back.

Well at least nothing about police deleted text messages

Welcome back!

not yet.

That sounds like a proverb. I have another one:

Italian prosecutors blow smoke up asses often.

. That Hamilton guy certainly musta been a peppery old fella.

The issue isn't that their was a leaf or two in Filomena's room. The issue is that the guilters claimed that the lack of such debris was proof that the break in had been staged.

Quite.

Briars, read the post Bill linked by Jim Snowden.

This isn't the last trial, especially in the event of a conviction.

Has it occurred to anyone that the true purpose of the proceedings is to keep this thread alive forever?

 

[Kaosium]

I skimmed his article too many sloppy mistakes. interrogated for hours before she confessed no DNA on the knife ,DNA all over in dust blah blah a little late in the case to not see glaring errors

Briars, there's absolutely no evidence there was ever any DNA of Meredith's on that knife. Stefanoni skipped the steps necessary to establish that (quantification and Cytocentrifugation to Detect Cellular Material) what she produced the electropherogram for was ever on the knife, and then lied about one of them in court. Amanda was most definitely interrogated for hours no matter what way you figure it, she was already a blubbering wreck when Domino got there as per her own testimony.

The reason you believe differently is because you have been lied to which the prosecution in Italy can do with impunity.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Household DNA

I skimmed his article too many sloppy mistakes. interrogated for hours before she confessed no DNA on the knife ,DNA all over in dust blah blah a little late in the case to not see glaring errors

Briars,

Amanda was interrogated for hours. Here is what Mr. Snowden wrote about the DNA: "The new tests concluded on the knife in question showed no trace of the victim’s DNA or blood anywhere on it, confirming the results of the independent experts’ report and further debunking the prosecution’s scientific case." He is absolutely correct about the DNA. The new tests showed only Amanda's DNA, which had already been found on the handle previously. He is not correct with respect to blood, but three previous attempts to search for blood had already come up negative.

I did not find anything about dust in his article, but I did find this: "Prosecutors still have Knox’s DNA in the apartment she shared with Kercher and two others, but since there’s no way to determine when that DNA was deposited–people constantly shed DNA in the form of skin cells, skin oils, hair, and sweat–it doesn’t tie her to the scene of the murder at the time of the murder." Maybe you can explain what you think is wrong with this passage. Before you do, you might want to consult a 2008 article by Toothman, Brown, and their colleagues, which found DNA in dust. All in hall, his article is more accurate than your quick summary IMO.

 

[anglolawyer]

.
Yes, there is glass on the outer part of the sill, and on the inner lower part of the sill, but not on the intermediate part that a closed window frame would have protected. My interpretation is that the rock broke through the glass, then hit the inner shutter, opening the inner shutter and deflecting the rock, but leaving the window frame in the closed position. The broken glass tumbled down on both the outside and inside of the closed window frame.

The angled trim on the outside part of the window frame protrudes over the outside part of the sill when the window is closed. The portion of the sill it protrudes over is mostly clear of glass, but the glass does infringe slightly on the outermost portion. The trim would deflect most of the glass, but some could be resting at an angle on the trim when everything had settled. However, when Rudy opened the window frame, any glass resting on the angled trim would be able to flop over a bit and intrude on that portion of the sill that was originally protected by the angled trim.

I am not sure if I explained that very well. I can think it much better than I can say it.
.

You explained it perfectly. Different points work for different people. The one that does it for me and which no one on the other side ever addresses is the fine glass spray into the room, the smaller pieces over towards the door. How do you get that if you throw the rock against the outer face of the opened window?

Briars?

If I were a guilter I would just argue that one threw the rock from outside and the other then closed the outer shutter. I would still have the minor problem that shards appear to have been picked out of the frame, which they would need to have been rather imaginative to conceive, but so what? The only point I'd lose is the supposed difficulty of tossing that humongous rock from the outside, but that really is a lemon anyway.

Briars?

 

[Strozzi]

.
Yes, there is glass on the outer part of the sill, and on the inner lower part of the sill, but not on the intermediate part that a closed window frame would have protected. My interpretation is that the rock broke through the glass, then hit the inner shutter, opening the inner shutter and deflecting the rock, but leaving the window frame in the closed position. The broken glass tumbled down on both the outside and inside of the closed window frame.

The angled trim on the outside part of the window frame protrudes over the outside part of the sill when the window is closed. The portion of the sill it protrudes over is mostly clear of glass, but the glass does infringe slightly on the outermost portion. The trim would deflect most of the glass, but some could be resting at an angle on the trim when everything had settled. However, when Rudy opened the window frame, any glass resting on the angled trim would be able to flop over a bit and intrude on that portion of the sill that was originally protected by the angled trim.

I am not sure if I explained that very well. I can think it much better than I can say it.
.

Codyjuneau, you are very perceptive to point out what you did and to recognize that fallen glass fragments which fell directly down on the outside of the window would have landed on or tilted against the window's external lower trim when the window was in it's normal shut position. When the burglar unlatched the window through the hole he made in the glass and then pushed the window open (it swung inside), any glass fragments on or tilted against the lower external trim could have fallen onto the portion of the windowsill that had been covered by the trim when the window was shut.

Cody, please look again at the closeup photo of the open window and enlarge the image as best you can. I looked at the photo enlarged 400% and see a metal object resting on the exterior portion of the window sill. It is immediately to the left of the card with the 0 number (or O letter). The metal object has a flat side and is curved. Can you tell what it is? Is it broken from the window latch? Why would it be in that location? Does it indicate anything about the position (shut or open?) of the window when it was struck by the rock?

 

[Dan O.]

The white outside wall which his shoes needed to grab onto had no dirt neither did the bars on the lower window. Those are two leaves by the way which look pretty pristine and not stepped on. You are right about the sill looking dirty with debris near the leaves in the corner. probably just old leaf dust flaking paint and bird droppings.You would think if his shoe pressed in that area some of the debris would have tracked into the room

Are you claiming that you have seen evidence of the condition of the outside wall beneath Filomena's window? Care to share?