Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[JREF2010]

This is terrible malpractice by the Perugis police to use their perceptions of a 20 year old foreign girl's immaturity and self-absorbtion to target her as a suspect in a crime. They had little common language with her, let alone cultural understanding or psychological understanding of the individual.

I have wondered if the hip-swivel was in fact a hip-swivel. Does anyone know if there was a bench or other place to sit at the front door available to Amanda at the moment she put on her booties? (I did not see it in the video.) If there was no surface right there to sit on, or if it was occupied by a police officer using it to put on his/her booties, Amanda would probably have stood on one foot and bent her let to raise the other shoe up to put on her bootie. Did she teeter a bit to maintain balance. Did she observe others around her teeter a bit to maintain their balance? Her saying something like "ta-da" when she stood back up means nothing more in English than I got them on without tipping.

Its like someone said earlier, wearing the glasses of guilt. Everything they see is from a guilty mental state.

They apply it to whom they want to, we all do to I guess. I recall watching the courtroom and people laughing and smiling. And I thought "how strange this is a murder case, a trial of life in prison and the judge and lawyers on both sides smiling and laughing at times?"

Is this sadistic behavior, to laugh and smile in a murder trial?

Behavior is a weak, subjective approach from what I see. Mignini lying about the interrogation recordings, Stefonani lying she didn't test for blood in the luminol, the media presented personalities of Amanda and Raffaele, the odd prison diarys, then confiscated and leaked to the press.

Behavior of 20yr olds, judged by some old 50+ yr old from two generations past....before the internet was created or cell phones. Old men and older women deciding whats appropriate for a youthful person.

makes for good Daily Mail trash news anyway...

 

[Briars]

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I'd also like to add to your excellent comment AC, that the next time you (Briars) attend a funeral or wake, pay closer attention to how everyone there acts. If you do, and you're honest with yourself, you'll see a whole myriad of different reactions to someone's death. It's why, I think, no one takes pictiure at those things. Hell, you should hear some of the black humour homicide detectives use to distance themselves from the horrors they are investigating,

d

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There is a huge difference between a funeral and dealing with a recent murder at a police station. Funerals involve fond memories , tears and laughter.Laughing about a minaccia , a threat, between kisses and joking around with your boyfriend is not the same thing.

 

[Bill Williams]

Her first appearance free wearing a Halloween costume.The latest round of wanting to visit the grave after she was told it was against the Kercher's wishes. Self absorbed for sure maybe you know a different girl.

There is little point trying here but how many of the british girls or the Italian women had just met their lovers? With whom would Robyn Butterworth
Amy Frost, Sophie Purton, Natalie Hayward, Jade Bidwell, Samantha Rodenhurst, and Helen Powell snuggled with?

Personally I think that Amanda is narcissistic and a ditz. Her first appearance wasn't wearing a costume and that costume was some face paint and a shirt. In another time no one would have had any idea about what she did on Halloween of 2011.

It is odd that her expressing feelings for Meredith's memory is met with such meanness. Being the heartless guy I am, I would advise her to forget about Meredith and her family and move on as best she can.

Maybe we could get back to evidence including Curatolo's testimony. Please help out and translate the part where he says he saw them from 9:30 until just before midnight.

And Bill, this is a time I refer to Massei and point out that he changed the departing time to conform with disco buses that didn't exist. I don't care if he called her a psychopath or a normal child, but I do care when he distorted the evidence to convict.

O for pete's sake.

This has long since passed from a criminal investigation into someone's behaviour, to watching internet posters say the stupidest things about someone they do not know.

I second Grinder's maybe - maybe we can get back to discussing why someone is innocent of murder; not that they may or may not have gone through a narcissist stage when they were exitting their teens.

Note what Briars says... that Hallowe'en Costume, at the end of Oct 2011, of Knox as a Seattle Sounder soccer player... is not the "first thing she does."

It was actually the last of another phenomenon - journalistic, paparazzi stalking of her!

There are some who gather their information about the world around them via paparazzi and tabloids, which was one of the things wrong with this whole thing to begin with.

And it continues.

 

[acbytesla]

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I'd also like to add to your excellent comment AC, that the next time you (Briars) attend a funeral or wake, pay closer attention to how everyone there acts. If you do, and you're honest with yourself, you'll see a whole myriad of different reactions to someone's death. It's why, I think, no one takes pictiure at those things. Hell, you should hear some of the black humour homicide detectives use to distance themselves from the horrors they are investigating,

d

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I remember my mothers death as it was yesterday. She passed away when I was 15 years old. It was devastating to me. After my sister told me..which hit me like a ton a bricks. I didn't immediately cry. I was in shock. I told my sister I had to be alone for a little while and ran through these woods that have trails that go for miles near my house. I cried and I ran and cried some more. I returned home a couple of hours later all cried out. It was at this time, the news was broke to a few of my other siblings. They cried openly in front of me and with my other siblings...but at this point, I was tired and had no energy to shed another tear. In fact, I didn't cry in front of any of them about her death. (It hit me from time to time, but I was always alone and never shared the grief with anyone). Years later, my brothers and sisters would accuse me of being unfeeling and not having cried when my mom passed. (If they only knew).

What's more, the very next day, my brother and I played golf together. We even laughed. Life doesn't stop because of death and not everyone reacts the same way.

The truth is, Amanda was a friend of Meredith, but it's not like Amanda was a long time friend. How does one react? My guess is that it a combination of shock, disbelief and loss. But does that really require the wearing of sackcloth and ashes?

Public wailing always seems demonstrative and actually phony to me. But that is my opinion. I don't think you can really assess what is going on in my head or their head from this.

It's just not fair to "assess" others in moments like that.

 

[Bill Williams]

Here is a rather literal translation of Amanda Knox addressing an Italian media source, in Italian, about this whole case.:

"There is no evidence that I was there when it happened, that is clear: I was not there.
How could this trial go on with all these uncertainties?
The prosecution bases itself on groundless suppositions and above all this supposition that I'm a monster.
I think and hope people are seeing that I'm not that way and I never was that way.

Q. That morning you realized there was something wrong and I'm talking about those small blood traces.

A. I didn't know what to think, I never had had such an experience at all. When I saw the blood I thought "Look, this is strange". I would have never imagined that someone had been killed.

Q. Have you an idea about what happened?

A. Surely Rudy Guede was there that evening and he had never been before at my house so there is no other explanation of his DNA in his house and in that room. There are his palmprints in Meredith's blood, his shoeprints in Meredith's blood: these are clear facts.

Q. Amanda, you spent four years in jail, how did you live them? Thinking to what?

A. I remember the people, I remember Don Saulo who always gave me support, but I also remember abuses. I was waiting every day, every second to come back to life and that door was always shut on my face.

Q. I know you met Raffaele Sollecito.

A. He is a very good boy, he has suffered for standing at my side.

Q. Amanda, on January 30th, hence very soon, there will be the verdict of the appeal trial. First of all I ask you how will you follow it?

A. I'll be at my mother's home. I'll have my hearth in my throat [literally "mouth"] till that moment. If I'll be convicted I will fight for my innocence up to the Supreme Court.

Q. Amanda, a thought for Meredith, a memory [of her].

A. I think to her very much, I think to her every day.

 

[Bill Williams]

And Bill, this is a time I refer to Massei and point out that he changed the departing time to conform with disco buses that didn't exist. I don't care if he called her a psychopath or a normal child, but I do care when he distorted the evidence to convict.

Heavens.... you're not saying that Massei found it as factual (wrongful, but he found it as factual nonetheless) that the Disco Buses ran on the night on Nov 1, are you?

 

[acbytesla]

There is a huge difference between a funeral and dealing with a recent murder at a police station. Funerals involve fond memories , tears and laughter.Laughing about a minaccia , a threat, between kisses and joking around with your boyfriend is not the same thing.

I agree Briars, but then again is there a handbook on how to behave in a situation like that? I'm unaware of one. Everyone experiences this kind of thing through there own reality. And even you have to admit that this would be a very surreal experience.

Maybe Amanda's behavior was inappropriate in view of other people's feelings. But is it a reflection of guilt? Do you really think it's fair of you through second hand recollection to make a judgement? Frankly, I don't think it is fair for anyone to judge others in a situation such as that.

 

[Bill Williams]

There is a huge difference between a funeral and dealing with a recent murder at a police station. Funerals involve fond memories , tears and laughter.Laughing about a minaccia , a threat, between kisses and joking around with your boyfriend is not the same thing.

Oh for pete's sake. You, then, have not gone to many funerals. And if this is your sole experience of them, you indeed are very, very lucky and blessed.

But trust me on this one... there is no cookie-cutter experience of what happens to everyone at a funeral. Have you ever been to one where the police have had to be summoned to restore order, quell the fighting, and get the body back into the box?

There are as many expressions or reaction to death as there are people.

This is again part of the trouble with this whole case - prejudging people - putting them in jail in effect for having had the wrong reaction to something, not because there is actual evidence.

 

[AmyStrange]

The need for stereotyping

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Its like someone said earlier, wearing the glasses of guilt. Everything they see is from a guilty mental state.
They apply it to whom they want to, we all do to I guess. I recall watching the courtroom and people laughing and smiling. And I thought "how strange this is a murder case, a trial of life in prison and the judge and lawyers on both sides smiling and laughing at times?"

Is this sadistic behavior, to laugh and smile in a murder trial?

Behavior is a weak, subjective approach from what I see. Mignini lying about the interrogation recordings, Stefonani lying she didn't test for blood in the luminol, the media presented personalities of Amanda and Raffaele, the odd prison diarys, then confiscated and leaked to the press.

Behavior of 20yr olds, judged by some old 50+ yr old from two generations past....before the internet was created or cell phones. Old men and older women deciding whats appropriate for a youthful person.

makes for good Daily Mail trash news anyway...

Right on J, some people find it impossible to ever admit that they are wrong.

To me it seems that some of these people, by admitting they are wrong, that they are questioning their whole self worth. And if you do things that you wouldn't do in most other circumstances comes into question also and they might have to admit they are bad people.

And, sometimes it's derived from their hatred (real or imagined) of a kind of person, or action, or way of thinking or of a sex or color. It proves to them that their hatred is justified. Although many stereotypes are not based on hatred, many hatreds are based on stereotypes that the hater grows up learning or creates to explain his anger, and stereotypes are one of the many ways the brain decides if something is a threat or not.

Not only is your whole self worth challenged, but also your whole ability to detect and protect yourself from danger, keeping yourself safe, happy and alive. It's called self-preservation and some people also considered it an instinct which is hardwired into your brain and passed down from generation to generation.

I can understand LE and the Prosecutor's need to admit they are wrong. There's more on the line here than just egos. The whole system comes into question, and right along with this, it's credibility and authority. This case though takes that fear to a whole other level, in my opinion.

It's unusual for someone to admit they're wrong, but it happens and it took me 50+ years to work out in my head that admitting when you're wrong makes you a better person and also (for me) it selfishly allows me to think of myself as better than most people.

But that's just my opinion,

d

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[moije2]

There is a huge difference between a funeral and dealing with a recent murder at a police station. Funerals involve fond memories , tears and laughter.Laughing about a minaccia , a threat, between kisses and joking around with your boyfriend is not the same thing.

All the more reason for them to be incredibly nervous and stressed. Do you think that possibly this could account for various stressed behaviour? Or do you think Amanda was calm and relaxed when she responded to a stupid comment that "she *********** bled to death"..? In my view your contrast is correct between a funeral and a murder/police station. And it only reinforces AmyStrange's point.

PS: Someone said above (NancyS?) they would be interested in reading your timeline. Since I had been on Facebook recently I thought that they were referring to your FB timeline! Wouldn't you just love for <your> FB timeline to be under scrutiny? I wonder if some of your judgments about Amanda might come back to bite you.

Edited by zooterkin: 

Edited for Rule 10. Do not attempt to evade the auto-censor.

 

[Dan O.]

I've shared my thoughts on evidence and timelines more than once on this site.

For reference, here are some of Briars thoughts on evidence and timelines posted on this site:

The sexual attack happened while she was still alive and not undressed. The time of the confrontation began sometime after 9 and was over around 10PM. The clothing removal and clean up and staging was later. That's the timeline that fits. The motive may have been unclear , fight over money , jealousy, yes even unknown impulses. There is evidence the break in and removal of clothing happened later. Someone returned to Filomena's room and left a blob of Meredith's blood and Amanda's DNA, not mixed blood Bill, but significant in its makeup and isolation. There was no evidence of dirt from outside and the imagined scuff marks on the white wall were just red wall showing through the tough lime weather worn wash.

Capezzali probably did hear the awful scream. Double glazed windows are no protection when your living in a small town filled with stone buildings causing echo. Her timing is suspect as she thought she heard of the murder the next day at 11am earlier that the discovery. The other witness Monaccia who woke up near 10 to arguing and a scream is a better account. With a clear view to the cottage she was alarmed enough to check with her parents downstairs. Just waking up she may have been confused as to whether the arguing was in Italian just prior to the scream. It could have been Italian and English, or even Knox and Guede In Italian. Point is it was surely Meredith who screamed, still alive around 10.

You need to try to remember what people post . Curatolo saw them earlier, probably waiting in the Piazza for someone. They left the piazza unnoticed by Curatolo,who was reading. They returned later after the screams and murder, where all three were present. Look at the map posted on .org . Perps would escape the less busy route. The car park to the stairs to Via Melo would be the way to go to avoid traffic and intersections! The metal stairs are to the right of her window in the lot , nothing would block the noise. She heard gravel sounds and running on metal and may have actually witnessed the separate leaving times. I haven't heard this mentioned but the high humidity that night 68% facilitates sound travel.

Sollecito lived 5 minutes away. they ran back at 10:30 changed and were seen later by Curalolo waiting by the rail for the tow truck to leave. Back to break the window and other important details such as moving Meredith and cleaning the bathroom.

Now Nara is certain without looking at the clock it was 11. No she got up to go to the bathroom and didn't check the time. She heard the scream before she heard the running on the stair that nearly resulted in a collision with Guede. So the scream and death resulting in the fatal attack probably happened after 10;15. They all ran Amanda and Sollecito either return to Sollecito's for a time or hide somewhere only to appear later in Grimana to see if the tow truck had departed. The clean up began sometime after they could gain access again to the cottage after 11:30 noted by Curatolo who said they were gone when he left.

Notice how she keeps changing times to fit different parts of the evidence.

I've been gathering reference to time stamped events in this case. A comprehensive theory of the crime has to weave through these times or offer an alternate explanation for the event.

1 November 2007

• 17:45 (approx) Jovana Popovic stops by and asks Raffaele to drive her to the train station. (Murder in Italy)
  Amanda says this was before they started watching Amelie (Amanda testimony)
• 18:27:15 VLC was launched to play the multimedia file Amelie.avi - Massei Report pg 325
  Amanda and Raffaele start watching Amelie ( 122 min, implies film would finish playing at 20:29 if left to run normally. Closing credits would start at 20:25 )
• 19:30 TG3 news report starts; Guede claims he left home shortly after the program started.
  Source Micheli report. "Coming to the evening of 1 November, R. remember leaving the house as he began the TG3 regional".
• 19:53 First sighting of figure thought to be Guede on car park CCTV camera, adjusted forward 12 minutes per the defence's theory.
  He is walking through the car park towards the cottage. CCTV time stamp is 19:41. [1]
• 20:18:12 Lumumba sent text message to Knox saying she didn't need to come to work.
  Time established by phone records on Amanda Knox page.
  (cell Aqueduct Street Eagle 5-wk. 3) - Massei Report pg 345
• 20:22 Second sighting of figure thought to be Guede on car park CCTV camera, adjusted forward 12 minutes per the defence's theory.
  He is walking from left to right along the street, past the car park on the right and the cottage on the left. Fits with Guede's claim to have arrived at the cottage around 20:30. CCTV time stamp is 20:10. [2]
• 20:35:48 Knox responds with text message to Lumumba. Time established by phone records on Amanda Knox page. Message is "See you later, Good evening" in Italian.
  (cell Via Berardi area 7) - Massei Report pg 345
• 20:40 Amanda and Raffaele at RS's place. MSNBC 2009-03-20
  In testimony, Jovana Popovic of Serbia said Sollecito had agreed to drive her to a bus station in Perugia the night of the murder. ... Popovic went to Sollecito's house at 8:40 p.m. to tell him she no longer needed to go, and Knox opened the door to take the message, the Serbian woman testified. (Did Amanda answer the door because Raffaele was on the phone?)
  Raffaele was supposed to drive her to the station around midnight.
  "AK: Later on, she came back and talked with Raffaele, and Raffaele explained to me that she didn't need to be driven to the station any more." about the time they were having dinner. (Amanda testimony)
• 20:42:56 Raffaele is called by his father, talks for 3 1/2 minutes.
  Time established by phone records on Raffaele Sollecito page. (cell Beradi Way Area 7) - Massei Report pg 339
• 20:43 Prosecution presented CCTV time where figure is seen crossing the street towards the cottage (see 21:05)
  Prosecution claims CCTV clocks were 10 minutes fast (citation needed), CCTV timestamp would therefore be 20:53 (Actual timestamp shows 20:51:36.17)
  Sollecito's defense however contested the manner in which they were identified times of the images. Lanazione, March 13, 2009 (it)
• 20:45 Meredith leaves residence of Robyn Butterworth at Via Bontempi, 22 and walks with Sophie Purton.
  (PT=20:45)
  Time approximate, based on Sophie's statement that she arrived home in Via del Lupo at 20:55.
• 20:55 Sophie Purton arrives home in Via del Lupo.
  Source Micheli Report. "On 17 November, P[urton] made a new prosecuting magistrate deposition...correcting the time that she was back in Via del Lupo, recalling that it was still 20:55".
• 20:56 Phone call from Meredith's phone to mother, cut off almost immediately.
  "In evidence on Friday, Stefano Sisani, of the Perugia flying squad, revealed that a call to Kercher’s mother, Arline, in Coulsdon, Surrey, was made from her mobile at 8.56pm on the night of November 1. She used the phone daily to call her mother, who was ill. The call was cut off before she got through" (Times Online, March 22, 2009)
  Theory that call was cut off by attack is unlikely, as Meredith would still be near Sophie's flat at this time. More likely explanation is that call was dropped because of poor signal in tight medieval streets.
  Logged in phone memory - Massei Report pg 350
• 21:04 Sighting of figure thought to be Meredith on the car park CCTV camera, CCTV time adjusted forward 12 minutes per the defense's theory.
  The figure is walking from left to right on the same side of the street as the cottage. CCTV time stamp was said to be 20:43 in early news reports (when the figure was thought to be Amanda); later reports of 20:41 are possibly a confusion with Guede's sighting at 19:41. Fits with Sophie's arrival home at 20:55, and the interrupted call at 20:56. Telegraph 2007-11-12Daily Mail 2009-03-14
• 21:05 Kercher arrives at cottage
  Time approximate, based on walk since leaving Sophie. Also matches up with female figure seen walking towards cottage gate on car park video at 20:43. Prosecution claims clock is 10 minutes fast, see 13:34 on Nov. 2 for why it's probably 12 minutes slow. Video available on web is cropped and doesn't show camera timestamps. A still from te video has been discovered showing the timestamp of 20:51:36.17
• 21:10 Last human interaction with RS's computer during this night.
  Testimony of police expert Marco Trotta at trial. (Telegraph 14-Mar-2009 - Amanda Knox trial, police cast doubt on computer alibi)
• 21:10:32 last access to the file Amelie.avi - Massei Report pg 325
  This is not related to when the playing of the film Amelie ended, it only indicates further (human) interaction with the computer
• 21:20-21:30 time of Meredith's scream as recounted in Rudy's Skype call
• 21:26 Last opening of file "Naruto ep 101.avi" recorded in spotlight metadata on Raffaele's computer. (from Raffaele's appeal)
  runtime is 23 minutes watch on hulu
  the last access time recorded in the filesystem is on Nov. 6th after Raffaele is in police custody.
• 21:58 Attempt to call voice mail (from phone memory)
  Massei Report pg 350
• 22:00 Kercher's phone attempts to call Abbey Bank.
  Source Micheli Report. Call fails because 44 prefix for UK not used.
• 22:00 (aprox) Hoax bomb threat call to Elisabetta (villa where phones were recovered)
  (Massei Report pg 13)
• 22:13:19 Kercher's mobile phone had received a picture message.
  Source Micheli Report. Connected via cell area of Ponte Rio - Montelaguardia.
  the phone connected to the 30064 Strada Vicinale Ponte Rio Monte La Guardia cell (Massei 337)
  (Massei Report pg 348) GPRS (internet) lasting 9 seconds to the IP address 10.205.46.41
• 22:30 Black man running up stairs near cottage.
  Time approximate, Alessandra Formica and boyfriend are descending the stairs of via della Pergola that lead to viale S.Antonio, where their car is parked and where the cottage is. Suddenly a guy who walks in the rush, coming up, bumps into them and runs away. At trial she says "I can rule out that the guy could be Rudy Guede". Perugia Shock 2009-03-26 (cache)
• 22:30-23:00 - Car breakdown at exit to parking garage across from cottage.
  Time approximate. Pasqualino Coletta (the driver) testified that nothing out of the ordinary happened during this time.[3]
• 23:00 Mechanic comes for broken down car.
  Time approximate. Gianfranco Lombardi was there for about 10 minutes, noticed a dark colored car parked outside Meredith's place, but nothing suspicious.[4]
• 23:41:11 Father ends SMS to Raffaele. (this will not be received until after 6am.) (Massei [342])

2 November 2007

• 00:10:31 Meredith's english phone connects to cell 25622 at Piazza Lupattelli (Massei 337)
• 00:58:50 Fastweb log files show 4 second web connection from Raffaele's computer to www.apple.com (Massei 332)
• 02:00 Guede spotted at a local nightclub.
  Source?
• 05:32:09-05:32:13 Three VLC crashes on Raffaele's computer (Massei [327])
• 05:56:37 A playlist was created on Raffaele's computer (Massei [330])
• 06:02:59 Raffaele's phone receives SMS from Francesco Sollecito
  (cell Via Beradi area 7) Massei Report pg 339, 342
• 06:22 Screensaver on Raffaele's computer kicks in marking the end of human activity on the computer for the night. (addendum to Raffaele Sollecito Appeal)

 

[AmyStrange]

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There is a huge difference between a funeral and dealing with a recent murder at a police station. Funerals involve fond memories , tears and laughter.Laughing about a minaccia , a threat, between kisses and joking around with your boyfriend is not the same thing.

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True and like I said, I still think Amanda is creepy looking, and I really can't get past that.

But now a days I always try to distance myself from my personal opinions and feelings when I critically examine something. hell, I even question my own feelings sometimes. Why am I really angry and stuff like that, but maybe you're different than me,

d

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[moije2]

O for pete's sake.

This has long since passed from a criminal investigation into someone's behaviour, to watching internet posters say the stupidest things about someone they do not know.

I second Grinder's maybe - maybe we can get back to discussing why someone is innocent of murder; not that they may or may not have gone through a narcissist stage when they were exitting their teens.

Note what Briars says... that Hallowe'en Costume, at the end of Oct 2011, of Knox as a Seattle Sounder soccer player... is not the "first thing she does."

It was actually the last of another phenomenon - journalistic, paparazzi stalking of her!

There are some who gather their information about the world around them via paparazzi and tabloids, which was one of the things wrong with this whole thing to begin with.

And it continues.

I second this. Here we are back on this meme that Amanda's behaviour was not used against her, and at the same time that her behavior was somehow wrong or immature. Some here even parrot a dislike of her. Amazing. About someone they don't know. Judgments about the appropriateness of her behavior - a 20 year old - by a bunch (largely is suspect) over 50 armchair sleuths.

The only inappropriate behavior I have seen has been by middle aged men and women prosecuting her. Isn't that always the case? The old fogeys passing judgment on youngsters and exposing their own sexual/behavioral hangups?

 

[moije2]

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True and like I said, I still think Amanda is creepy looking, and I really can't get past that.

But now a days I always try to distance myself from my personal opinions and feelings when I critically examine something. hell, I even question my own feelings sometimes. Why am I really angry and stuff like that, but maybe you're different than me,

d

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Good luck on this one. I would propose that we post a picture of everyone of the posters to this blog, yours included, and see how many of us would survive scrutiny. I don't know why you post this. Is it tosomehow justify your opinions? Sort of like I started out thinking guilty but now see the light? (Like most of us I think.)

PS: I am not posting this to be antagonistic. I enjoy and like your posts. This superficial judgment stuff is just one of my pet peeves.

 

[Strozzi]

Her general behavior was absolutely a factor in how she became accused of a crime. Call it self-absorption and social immaturity if you wish.

Edgardo Giobbi, lead investigator: We were able to establish guilt by closely observing the suspect's psychological and behavioral reaction during the investigation. We don't need to rely on other kinds of investigation.

His suspicions were initially aroused by a provocative hip swivel by Amanda when she put on protective shoe covers at the crime scene.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/oct/08/amanda-knox-facial-expressions

I am very taken by Giobbi's ability to establish guilt by observation of a 20 year old foreign girl with whom he and most other police present could barely communicate.

Giobbi knows about Italian TV game and talk show women's hip-swivel and knew THAT WAS IT when he saw Amanda "swivel her hips" just the right way when she stood up after putting on forensic booties. Amanda knew nothing about what Giobbi was referring to. I guess they didn't teach the Italian hip wiggle-move to girls at Amanda's Jesuit high school. Is it proof of a deprived American childhood or Italian major-crime investigator projecting his own cultural values to a 20 year old American suspect?

 

[Bill Williams]

For reference, here are some of Briars thoughts on evidence and timelines posted on this site:




Notice how she keeps changing times to fit different parts of the evidence.

I've been gathering reference to time stamped events in this case. A comprehensive theory of the crime has to weave through these times or offer an alternate explanation for the event.

1 November 2007

• 17:45 (approx) Jovana Popovic stops by and asks Raffaele to drive her to the train station. (Murder in Italy)
  
  
  <....sinister deletia....>​

• 
  Thanks for this, Dan O. I hope you are keeping this and will repost it occasionally... perhaps even forward it to Nencini's court!
  
  I'm sure the criticism cannot be hung on all guilters/haters, but the fact that most, if not all, simply refuse to put together a coherent story of how this went down says all I need to hear, and explains why I believe what I do.
  
  There just is no way to weave AK and/or RS into those demarcation points. It's not a matter of liking them or not liking them, it's a matter that the evidence is not there.
  
  Please keep this - it took a fair bit of work...

 

[acbytesla]

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True and like I said, I still think Amanda is creepy looking, and I really can't get past that.
But now a days I always try to distance myself from my personal opinions and feelings when I critically examine something. hell, I even question my own feelings sometimes. Why am I really angry and stuff like that, but maybe you're different than me,

d

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I have to say I find this strange. But no less strange than the amazing number or women I have heard say that they hate Anne Hathaway. I sometimes think people get feelings about others that are visceral and that they simply can't explain. Not that there is any real justification for their feeling. But just because you can't explain the the reason, doesn't mean that they don't have the feeling.

Not every feeling or intuition has to have a rationale behind it, that said, more people should be like you Amy. Cognizant, that their feelings and intuition is irrational and without basis.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Link to a short essay on digestive transit times

If you are also a human forensic pathologist who has read or written peer-reviewed papers on this topic, or has even had a great deal of experience with the topic of stomach emptying post-mortem during human autopsies...

Are humans so very different from all other mammals? I don't think so. Yet if one wants to stick humans, here is a link from Colorado State with a graph, a table, and some references to get one started. Notice that typically 50% of stomach emptying occurs within 2-3 hours.

 

[LBR]

Are we playing whack-a-mole? Here's an answer from 29th September 2010, 10:59 PM:

​

I don't find this rhetorical question particularly useful.

In the reading I have done, there is no shortage of the following concepts constantly repeated on both sides of the divide:

whack-a-mole, conspiracy theories, straw-man arguments, logical fallacies, cherry-picked data, scientific garbage, poor critical reasoning skills, etc., etc.

(However, the answer was interesting).

 

[LBR]

This was simply fudged by people throwing around words like "unreliable" without understanding what they were actually talking about.

Rolfe.

Interesting information in your post.

Part of this case seems to be about the battle of the experts and whose opinion is the correct one.

From Massei:

“Thus Dr. Lalli, while affirming that gastric emptying begins as soon as one part of the stomach’s contents has become sufficiently liquid to pass through the pylorus, and that this occurs around the 3rd to 4th hour after the meal, made a point of adding that [181] many factors influence the gastric, such that any deduction of time of death based solely on this data is rather unconvincing” (pg 177)

For those who do not have the benefit of reading the Italian testimonies of Dr. Lalli, Professor Introna and Ronchi, nor the benefit of forensic expertise, the best we can do is read Massei and come to the conclusion of “inconclusive”.

As an expert forensic witness yourself, has there ever been a time when you have encountered an opposing opinion by someone with similar academic credentials who based this opinion on science as well?