Continuation Part 4: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Grinder]

I'm not looking up the stories written at the time but I recall that his testimony changed under the guiding truth seeker Mignini. If someone has his various accounts that would be interesting. The paragraph from Massei gives him the best light possible.

He perceived the presence, at the end of the basketball court, of "two young people that were looking like two sweethearts discussing a bit in a heated way amongst them ... every some time one would get up and walk on the way where is the railing and look down" (page 5 hearing of March 28, 2009). He stated he had not seen them coming and when he looked down at the basketball court they were already there (p. 19). He remembers also the presence of other people. He reported of having seen the two young people until before midnight. He recognized the two people as the two defendants, who were in the room, he indicated them and specified he already knew them having seen them before, although never together but each on their own. (page 18 hearing of 28.3.2009). He added, as he left the Piazza shortly before midnight the two youngsters were not there anymore.

ETA - Telegraph - Antonio Curatolo, 52, said that a couple he had seen "chatting animatedly" on a basketball court were her alleged murderers, American student Knox and Italian Sollecito.
He told the court that he saw them "around five times" between 9.30pm and midnight on the night Miss Kercher died.
Knox and Sollecito have always claimed they were at home when Miss Kercher was killed in November 2007 and did not leave until the following morning.

ABC - On the night before Kercher's body was discovered, he said, he was sitting on a bench in Piazza Grimana, reading a news magazine and smoking cigarettes. The plaza was busy with young people, he said, but he noticed one couple, whom he identified in court as Knox and Sollecito, talking animatedly. At one point Sollecito went to a railing at the edge of the square and looked down in the direction of the house where Kercher was killed, Curatolo said.

The couple was in the square from about 9:30 p.m. until just before midnight, he said. Based on an autopsy, investigators believe that Kercher died in the same time period.

 

[Briars]

Briars - with this timeline they have an alibi if you want to believe Curatolo. He found them in the plaza at 9:30 certainly you don't believe they killed Meredith between 9:15 and before 9:30 do you? Curatolo didn't just see them for a minute or he wouldn't have noticed them.

Please drop Curatolo and start over.

The blob could have been moved by someone that morning with the police and Filomena going into her room recovering items.

Your the one that places so much on Curatolo. Did he make a mistake on the time could it have been earlier? Why not, there was no reason for him to be so exact with when he thought he looked at the clock The night before there has been heavy rain. There was no evidence in Filomena's room of any debris or dirt. Drop the staged break-in and the random blob that was not tracked and I won't mention Curatolo again even if baited to do so.

 

[Dan O.]

Since everything is parsed until no word is left unturned, answering email doesn't mean sending emails. I write answers to important emails and keep them as a draft to reread later. He may never have sent them and they may have been ruined by the PP.

The postal police had looked only at file creation, modification and access times to identify the periods of activity on the computer. As we learned in the trial, they were ignorant of the ways those timestamps could be overridden by later activity.

Composing email today would create a separate file for each message and therefore leave timestamps that would have been detected. However, that was a change Apple made to support TimeMachine which didn't come out until the next Mac OS release in late November, 2007. Prior to that, short messages were consolidated in a common mbox file whose dates would be constantly overridden.

The other option for composing and sending email is to use a web based application. This would not leave any tracks on Raffaele's computer and if through HTTPS would not be tracked by the ISP which is only required to track HTTP (port 80) connections. On November 4th, Amanda had sent an email to all her friends. She did this without access to her computer and therefore without the email address book on her computer. Logically therefore she must have been using a web based email application or something similar.

The defense teams would have investigated these email systems to look for anything that would create an alibi for the critical time of Meredith's death. If there was nothing there that helped them, they would be silent about their existence to keep the filthy prosecution from digging through looking for dirty laundry to expose. The PMF crowd is apparently upset that they didn't get to paw through these private messages too.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

all results taken on December 18 should be taken at a discount

Your the one that places so much on Curatolo. Did he make a mistake on the time could it have been earlier? Why not, there was no reason for him to be so exact with when he thought he looked at the clock The night before there has been heavy rain. There was no evidence in Filomena's room of any debris or dirt. Drop the staged break-in and the random blob that was not tracked and I won't mention Curatolo again even if baited to do so.

How do you explain Sgt. Pasquale's results with his rock throwing experiments? How do you explain the existence of Reps. 198 and 199? Did you not see what I wrote a few weeks ago after my conversation with a police officer (the title of the comment was contaminated, contaminated IIRC)?
ETA
There was photo evidence of an off-white substance in Filomena's room, but the details escape me at the moment.

 

[Bill Williams]

Your the one that places so much on Curatolo. Did he make a mistake on the time could it have been earlier? Why not, there was no reason for him to be so exact with when he thought he looked at the clock The night before there has been heavy rain. There was no evidence in Filomena's room of any debris or dirt. Drop the staged break-in and the random blob that was not tracked and I won't mention Curatolo again even if baited to do so.

This is not a tit for tat competition among bloggers and internet posters. Either Curatolo had something to offer or he didn't.

And as for debris or dirt - absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence. (I've waited 17 months to be able to use that one!)

 

[Briars]

I guess we're dropping Capezzali too ...

ETA and section 4 of Galati (the 'extraordinarily accurate' Curatolo - if the case is remitted for re-trial the defence can use his testimony to provide an alibi and rely on Galati's description.)[/QUOTE

 

[Briars]

I guess we're dropping Capezzali too ...

ETA and section 4 of Galati (the 'extraordinarily accurate' Curatolo - if the case is remitted for re-trial the defence can use his testimony to provide an alibi and rely on Galati's description.)

Capezzali probably did hear the awful scream. Double glazed windows are no protection when your living in a small town filled with stone buildings causing echo. Her timing is suspect as she thought she heard of the murder the next day at 11am earlier that the discovery. The other witness Monaccia who woke up near 10 to arguing and a scream is a better account. With a clear view to the cottage she was alarmed enough to check with her parents downstairs. Just waking up she may have been confused as to whether the arguing was in Italian just prior to the scream. It could have been Italian and English, or even Knox and Guede In Italian. Point is it was surely Meredith who screamed, still alive around 10.

 

[anglolawyer]

Capezzali probably did hear the awful scream. Double glazed windows are no protection when your living in a small town filled with stone buildings causing echo. Her timing is suspect as she thought she heard of the murder the next day at 11am earlier that the discovery. The other witness Monaccia who woke up near 10 to arguing and a scream is a better account. With a clear view to the cottage she was alarmed enough to check with her parents downstairs. Just waking up she may have been confused as to whether the arguing was in Italian just prior to the scream. It could have been Italian and English, or even Knox and Guede In Italian. Point is it was surely Meredith who screamed, still alive around 10.

Well, you are shifting quite a large section of the scenery now. If you look at Massei you will see it's pretty hard to squeeze the murder in before 10 according to the witnesses you mention.

Monacchia Antonella, ... declared that on the evening of November 1, 2007 she went to bed at 22:00 pm. She then continued, adding what follows:
[90] I looked at the clock and it was late; after, I can't say the precise time, I woke up hearing two people arguing in an animated way, a man and a woman in Italian; after which I heard an extremely loud scream and, seized by anxiety, I opened the window and looked to see if there was someone outside,

Bed at 10, then asleep then she wakes when 'it was late' (so not 10.05 then).

 

[Briars]

Well, you are shifting quite a large section of the scenery now. If you look at Massei you will see it's pretty hard to squeeze the murder in before 10 according to the witnesses you mention.


Bed at 10, then asleep then she wakes when 'it was late' (so not 10.05 then).

Bed around 10 I think you have to accept that we don't leap into bed on the minute. When she said 10pm it could have been 10 to. 10 minutes of sleep or even 5 is enough lead you to believe you've been sleeping longer. She wasn't in a deep sleep, but got up quickly to investigate and go downstairs.

 

[anglolawyer]

Bed around 10 I think you have to accept that we don't leap into bed on the minute. When she said 10pm it could have been 10 to. 10 minutes of sleep or even 5 is enough lead you to believe you've been sleeping longer. She wasn't in a deep sleep, but got up quickly to investigate and go downstairs.

Massei says 'at 22.00' but OK, have it your way. I never believed that whatever she or Capezzali heard was Meredith screaming.

 

[Skind]

We hear 4am often described as 4 '' in the morning". Technically its morning but we say it like that to emphasize the awful hour when we should still be sleeping. 6am is just morning period.

We also hear both 4am and 6am described as 'still night-time'. When I went to Uni, I came from a family of factory workers and was a former factory worker myself. I would describe both of those as 'morning', but many of my cohort would and did describe those hours as 'still night', especially those that had never worked or had only worked standard office hours.

FYI, night-shift is considered to be 10pm to 6am, not 10pm to what-ever-hour-you-call-morning.

Sollecito said he sent emails to his profs,on his ask fm and he assumes his Profs deleted them. That is a story that can be verified.

Highly doubtful it could be verified. Unless his profs exercised a level of diligence that is not in keeping with the reputations for uni profs, they're unlikely to have picked up their academic email until the end of the holidays. By this time, the significance of the exact hour they were sent is likely to be a) entirely unknown to the profs if they even cared to look, b) superceeded by the student in question being involved in a murder investigation. If they used a similar academic email system to the ones I've used, it's likely the system would have cleared the email out after a few weeks unless it was expressly saved.

Besides, the crime was supposed to have happened before midnight - why would any prof think an email after midnight would have any relevance at all? Add to that the reticence of making oneself known to the police.

So, it could be verified - if a series of unlikely and a-typical events happened; the profs took it upon themselves to take note of the time an outdated email was sent when there was no motivation to, they did the unusual thing of saving it despite its rapid irrelevance and it being a run-of-the-mill email, and they had any recollection of an individual email amongst the dozens they would have got from students that week, and that recollection was still present months later when Sollecito made the claim.

Remember, we're interested in the email as a singular event. None of the profs would have had any reason to be.

 

[Briars]

Do you not believe that Meredith would scream? The scream was so alarming that Monaccia took the time to get up and check with her parents just after 10pm that's significant. Three people in one house witness verifying that Monaccia came downstairs at that time. She had a direct view of the cottage. The arguing awoke her but the scream would make her get out of bed, it was night and quiet. The problem you must have with that time is what could Guede have been doing for an hour.

 

[Briars]

Are you kidding. One of their students accused of murder and they don't remember an email sent the night of the murder?

 

[anglolawyer]

Do you not believe that Meredith would scream?
... snip ..

I am not sure. I have no experience of the required kind and nor, I suspect, do you. In my imagination, she does not necessarily have to scream. It partly depends on just how things played out I guess but I really just don't know. Someone somewhere else on this forum said yesterday there is an instinct to take cover. I don't know about that either. It would be interesting to have some comparables. I suspect we would find both screaming and non-screaming fatal stabbing cases.

 

[anglolawyer]

Are you kidding. One of their students accused of murder and they don't remember an email sent the night of the murder?

This is totally credible IMO. See Amanda's testimony about whether she sent or received a text from Patrick (about which she had no reason to lie). Their focus will have been on what happened to Meredith not on what they did that night. The PGP expectation there should be a minute-by-minute exact recall of the night of the 1st is a major fork in the road.

When replying, please supply such an account for yourself for last Wednesday night including telephone calls, emails, their content and times, what you ate, what time, what you watched, when you slept etc and no cheating.

 

[Grinder]

Your the one that places so much on Curatolo. Did he make a mistake on the time could it have been earlier? Why not, there was no reason for him to be so exact with when he thought he looked at the clock The night before there has been heavy rain. There was no evidence in Filomena's room of any debris or dirt. Drop the staged break-in and the random blob that was not tracked and I won't mention Curatolo again even if baited to do so.

Briars I'm would remove him at a drop of a hat. It is the PGP that have refused to se the obvious. As for knowing the time, perhaps you forgot the dramatic moment when questioned as to how he could know the time so precisely he pulled up his sleeve and pointed to his wristwatch. Galati, as Anglo has pointed out, still calls him a great witness. So we are agreed Curatolo is out.

Now the prosecution has no one that saw them out that evening. No captures on public or private CCTV systems.

The scream may well have occurred. The cottage was not in an echo chamber and Nara not only had the double pane windows but was also hard of hearing. The scream she described for the ILE as the most chilling of her life did not stimulate her to call the police. She didn't come forward for months. The bigger deal about what she could have heard are the running footsteps. The scream followed by the running was the damning testimony. Footsteps on gravel and foot steps on metal gave evidence to multiple killers. CBS did a test and footsteps coulodn't be heard. Massei wouldn't allow an official test as requested by the defense. Nara also forced Mignini to move the TOD to a ridiculously late hour.

So would you also like to drop Nara?

Monacchia did come forward early on. Curious that with her asking her parents that they didn't have a precise time. You really think that Amanda was capable of arguing in Italian? Rudi and Amanda yelling at each other just before killing Meredith, really?

What time were those pesky people from Rome stuck in front of the cottage? They couldn't hear but Nara could, right?

Giampaolo Lombardo who testified that he had arrived at about 23,00 pm with the tow truck after a phone call received at about 22.30 pm, and had loaded the broken-down car and left again at about 23.15 pm: hearing of 27 March 2009).


So they broke down before 10:30 and were there until 11:15. Massei says thats when they went to Filomena's room to look to see what was happening with the car and truck which would mean M was dead by then.

 

[Grinder]

I am not sure. I have no experience of the required kind and nor, I suspect, do you. In my imagination, she does not necessarily have to scream. It partly depends on just how things played out I guess but I really just don't know. Someone somewhere else on this forum said yesterday there is an instinct to take cover. I don't know about that either. It would be interesting to have some comparables. I suspect we would find both screaming and non-screaming fatal stabbing cases.

Even if she did scream in her room it seems unlikely the sound would travel well. Her window was closed and according to F the shutters as well in F's room. The door would be closed and no windows facing Nara or Monacchia. We need a theory about the argument in Italian that makes sense. Amanda and someone out on the balcony arguing how to kill Meredith maybe?

This is totally credible IMO. See Amanda's testimony about whether she sent or received a text from Patrick (about which she had no reason to lie). Their focus will have been on what happened to Meredith not on what they did that night. The PGP expectation there should be a minute-by-minute exact recall of the night of the 1st is a major fork in the road.

When replying, please supply such an account for yourself for last Wednesday night including telephone calls, emails, their content and times, what you ate, what time, what you watched, when you slept etc and no cheating.

They were asked what they did the murder night withing 24 hours. Amanda apologized for not doing better. I can give you an accounting for last night, probably a few nights before that. I agree that forgetting a phone call or an email isn't a big deal.

I do think that a student of mine that was charged with murder would catch my eye and if it came in at a time close to the TOD I'd let the police know.

 

[Briars]

Briars I'm would remove him at a drop of a hat. It is the PGP that have refused to se the obvious. As for knowing the time, perhaps you forgot the dramatic moment when questioned as to how he could know the time so precisely he pulled up his sleeve and pointed to his wristwatch. Galati, as Anglo has pointed out, still calls him a great witness. So we are agreed Curatolo is out.

Now the prosecution has no one that saw them out that evening. No captures on public or private CCTV systems.

The scream may well have occurred. The cottage was not in an echo chamber and Nara not only had the double pane windows but was also hard of hearing. The scream she described for the ILE as the most chilling of her life did not stimulate her to call the police. She didn't come forward for months. The bigger deal about what she could have heard are the running footsteps. The scream followed by the running was the damning testimony. Footsteps on gravel and foot steps on metal gave evidence to multiple killers. CBS did a test and footsteps coulodn't be heard. Massei wouldn't allow an official test as requested by the defense. Nara also forced Mignini to move the TOD to a ridiculously late hour.

So would you also like to drop Nara?

Monacchia did come forward early on. Curious that with her asking her parents that they didn't have a precise time. You really think that Amanda was capable of arguing in Italian? Rudi and Amanda yelling at each other just before killing Meredith, really?

What time were those pesky people from Rome stuck in front of the cottage? They couldn't hear but Nara could, right?

Giampaolo Lombardo who testified that he had arrived at about 23,00 pm with the tow truck after a phone call received at about 22.30 pm, and had loaded the broken-down car and left again at about 23.15 pm: hearing of 27 March 2009).


So they broke down before 10:30 and were there until 11:15. Massei says thats when they went to Filomena's room to look to see what was happening with the car and truck which would mean M was dead by then.

Amanda had been studying Italian before Perugia and told the girls she wanted to speak and practice Italian when ever she could could have yelled at Guede in Italian no problem. Monaccia went to bed probably at the same time every night. she gave the time of the scream which may have been just minutes after she fell asleep. Her elderly parents were still awake so it it probably was very close to 10pm. The car broke down sometime before 10;30. Worrying about your car would prevent you from thinking about a scream in when you were from Rome. Very different from the resident Monaccia who knew immediately the scream was unusual.

 

[anglolawyer]

They were asked what they did the murder night withing 24 hours. Amanda apologized for not doing better. I can give you an accounting for last night, probably a few nights before that. I agree that forgetting a phone call or an email isn't a big deal.

I do think that a student of mine that was charged with murder would catch my eye and if it came in at a time close to the TOD I'd let the police know.

We visualise the highlighted part differently, Grinder. I can quite see the cops asking them where they were the night of the murder and being told they were at Raf's but I can't see any reason for follow up questions which would focus their minds on what they did in any detail. It would be great to have Amanda's witness declarations for the 2nd to the 4th. Without them we have to guess. We know that on the 4th she sent her long circular email but made room for only one sentence about how they spent their own time. I don't think anything happened before the night of the 5th to make them nail their recollections down. Remember Patrick's name never came up (I quoted Mignini asking why she never mentioned him) suggesting such things as her being due to go to work were not discussed and we can presumably agree she had totally forgotten sending Patrick a text even though, from our vantage point, that was a key event (as in, if she had gone to work after all you and I would never have met on this forum ).

 

[Briars]

This is totally credible IMO. See Amanda's testimony about whether she sent or received a text from Patrick (about which she had no reason to lie). Their focus will have been on what happened to Meredith not on what they did that night. The PGP expectation there should be a minute-by-minute exact recall of the night of the 1st is a major fork in the road.

When replying, please supply such an account for yourself for last Wednesday night including telephone calls, emails, their content and times, what you ate, what time, what you watched, when you slept etc and no cheating.

When you have a shocking event you remember that day it occurred in detail. Stress and emotional chemicals in the brain improve memory so much we can describe even the weather years later.His profs would have learned of the murder and remembered deleting an email from that accused student without a doubt. The emails were not sent.