Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Bill Williams]

As I said, they should start by explaining how Meredith's last meal was fully inside her stomach before proceeding in their accusations.

You missed Machiavelli's explanation for this - drawn from his own experience as a chef, and about how some bread products "get stuck" or some such thing as that.

 

[MDDVS]

You missed Machiavelli's explanation for this - drawn from his own experience as a chef, and about how some bread products "get stuck" or some such thing as that.

I didn't miss it, I commented on it in my previous post. His explanation is ridiculous. It is based on a nonsensical concept, "non-continuous meal", and as you mention in your post in is own experience as a chef, although since he didn't actually measure anything he doesn't really know what the effect really is, if any at all.

 

[Briars]

That is exactly what they are doing. They are taking any material they can from her life to support the criminal accusations. They are saying that anyone who pulled off this prank is more likely to have committed this crime.



If you are going to look at people's histories as part of the whole, then you must look at everything they have done, not just the stuff that makes them look guilty.

I have seen nothing of Amanda Knox since the crime was committed that let's me know she is a caring sensitive girl. True I don't know anything of her past other than the last 7 years. The behaviour at the Questura the kissing joking feet in Rafs lap is in stark contrast to the others. Unaware that her behaviour was annoying to her flatmates, Story of appearing nude and not embarrassed in front of her friend's boyfriend.The interviews where she explained everyone grieved differently rang false and hollow. She appeared to want to continue to have fun and did not appear to be too upset by the murder except to say it could have been her. The book , the hot video ,more evidence of her self absorption. Her first appearance free wearing a Halloween costume.The latest round of wanting to visit the grave after she was told it was against the Kercher's wishes. Self absorbed for sure maybe you know a different girl.

 

[MDDVS]

I have seen nothing of Amanda Knox since the crime was committed that let's me know she is a caring sensitive girl. True I don't know anything of her past other than the last 7 years. The behaviour at the Questura the kissing joking feet in Rafs lap is in stark contrast to the others. Unaware that her behaviour was annoying to her flatmates, Story of appearing nude and not embarrassed in front of her friend's boyfriend.The interviews where she explained everyone grieved differently rang false and hollow. She appeared to want to continue to have fun and did not appear to be too upset by the murder except to say it could have been her. The book , the hot video ,more evidence of her self absorption. Her first appearance free wearing a Halloween costume.The latest round of wanting to visit the grave after she was told it was against the Kercher's wishes. Self absorbed for sure maybe you know a different girl.

Do you have any comment regarding the fact that Meredith still had her last meal fully inside her stomach?

 

[Mary_H]

Regarding the authoritarian meme, I plead guilty.

Regarding the open discussion “until a consensus forms around the best truth that can be extracted from the available evidence”, - this amounts to the court of public opinion. This is a court that for all intents and purposes, will not matter come January 30th.

JREF has come to a consensus of innocence, as has IIP. TJMK and PMF have come to a consensus of guilt. There is no common ground or any agreement on any of the evidence (circumstantial or forensic) presented between these divergent courts of public opinion.<snip>

Slight clarification. IIP, TJMK and PMF all were established to promote certain viewpoints. As other posters have pointed out, JREF is neutral. It can't accurately be called a consensus, or a coming together, when those who disagree leave a discussion, which is for the most part what has happened here.

Believe it or not, there actually is quite a bit of common ground between the two divergent opinions, especially when compared to the beginning of the case. For example, the pro-guilt community used to insist that Amanda and Raffaele were discovered by the police at the front door of the cottage holding a mop and bucket. That turned out to be false. They insisted they were washing clothes in the cottage's washing machine. That turned out to be false, too. They insisted that Amanda was the first one to initiate a discussion of Patrick Lumumba's name during the interrogations. They insisted Prosecutor Mignini was roused from his sleep at home and had to make his way to the Questura at Amanda's insistence. False. False.

The pro-guilt opinion also insisted that non-audio video equipment in a department store recorded Amanda and Raffaele talking about having wild sex. They insisted that Amanda never retracted the forced accusations of Patrick, and that Amanda's mother, Edda Mellas, never told anyone what her daughter had said about not being able to know whether or not Patrick was at the scene of the crime. They insisted that phone records could show when Amanda and Raffaele had turned off their cell phones.

All of these items, and many more, turned out to be false. The pro-guilts had to give them up, and now both sides share common ground on the truth of these particular items. Maybe some of the pro-guilt lobby can produce a list of the false beliefs pro-innocent posters have had to drop along the way.

 

[Bill Williams]

You missed Machiavelli's explanation for this - drawn from his own experience as a chef, and about how some bread products "get stuck" or some such thing as that.

I didn't miss it, I commented on it in my previous post. His explanation is ridiculous. It is based on a nonsensical concept, "non-continuous meal", and as you mention in your post in is own experience as a chef, although since he didn't actually measure anything he doesn't really know what the effect really is, if any at all.

Did you catch his explanation, based on his reviewing her writings, why Amanda Knox was able to "choose not to sleep," and therefore was immune from deprivation effects at interrogation?

Some of these claim bear repeating....

What about that Amanda and her mom were able to communicate to each other in "Mafia code", which strangely reverses the literal meaning of, "I was at Raffaele's," to really mean, "I was at the cottage killing people."?

What about the fact that the whole population of Seattle practises the Mafia code of Omerta, keeping silent to authorities to protect a member of their inbred Seattle criminal syndicate from allegations she'd once participated in an April Fools prank?

When listed in point form like this, they begin to look convincing....

 

[Mary_H]

I have seen nothing of Amanda Knox since the crime was committed that let's me know she is a caring sensitive girl. True I don't know anything of her past other than the last 7 years. The behaviour at the Questura the kissing joking feet in Rafs lap is in stark contrast to the others. Unaware that her behaviour was annoying to her flatmates, Story of appearing nude and not embarrassed in front of her friend's boyfriend.The interviews where she explained everyone grieved differently rang false and hollow. She appeared to want to continue to have fun and did not appear to be too upset by the murder except to say it could have been her. The book , the hot video ,more evidence of her self absorption. Her first appearance free wearing a Halloween costume.The latest round of wanting to visit the grave after she was told it was against the Kercher's wishes. Self absorbed for sure maybe you know a different girl.

I don't know Amanda at all. But let's not start talking about the last seven years when the subject is what she did before she went to Perugia. I doubt the last seven years (well, actually, six years and three months) of her life have been typical.

You can't really be a cold-hearted murderer while also attracting attention with your silly behavior unless you're really sick, for example, like Jared Loughner, the guy who shot Gabrielle Giffords. That kind of sickness is not garden-variety, it is obvious and the doctors usually administer medication that leads the perpetrator to depression and remorse.

I can see that Amanda's behavior was distasteful to you, but it is not the behavior of a hardened criminal. And by hardened, I mean someone who can go six years and three months without breaking down and admitting at least a little bit about what they are accused of. Physically, it is not possible, without becoming crazier and crazier.

 

[kwill]

I have seen nothing of Amanda Knox since the crime was committed that let's me know she is a caring sensitive girl.

You've placed a lot of faith in a single report from someone who worked with someone who knew her a long time ago.

You've placed zero faith in the on-the-record testimony of many, many people who knew her well, went to school with her, lived with her, and claimed her as a friend.

As Mary said, if you're going to include stories from her past, you need to look at all of them.

And if you're only going to look at what she's said and done since the crime, you need to stick with that.

Is it not caring and sensitive to offer support for the many people around the world who are wrongfully imprisoned? What sort of person does that?

 

[codyjuneau]

There are some stats in the picture contained in this article which are quite revealing.

NUMBERS OF JUSTICE
The data that is of concern to the ministry Paola Severino in the 2011 report deposited in the House.
backlog
9 million of which:
- 5.5 for the civil, 3.4 for the criminal

Average time to define
Civil trial 2645 days, Criminal Proceedings 1753 days

togas
8,834 stipendiary magistrates in organic, 1,317 unfilled posts

The increase in compensation
In 2003: 5 million, In 2011: 84 million
€ 46 million the amount that the State
had to pay for wrongful imprisonment

28 000: in prison awaiting trial

http://albatros-volandocontrovento..../sabrina-misseri-visto-che-non-si-riesce.html

.
Huge work overloads, and yet they take the most dead nuts obvious slam dunk case possible, and turn it into some kind of no time limit government work project, even going so far as to try and use Rudy's turd to blame Amanda for Rudy's crime.
.

 

[Briars]

You've placed a lot of faith in a single report from someone who worked with someone who knew her a long time ago.

You've placed zero faith in the on-the-record testimony of many, many people who knew her well, went to school with her, lived with her, and claimed her as a friend.

As Mary said, if you're going to include stories from her past, you need to look at all of them.

And if you're only going to look at what she's said and done since the crime, you need to stick with that.

Is it not caring and sensitive to offer support for the many people around the world who are wrongfully imprisoned? What sort of person does that?

She is associating with those who may be wrongfully convicted to further her cause. I find her interviews and blog stiff and scripted. She does manage to press the Kerchers for their attention which is particularly offensive.

 

[Briars]

I don't know Amanda at all. But let's not start talking about the last seven years when the subject is what she did before she went to Perugia. I doubt the last seven years (well, actually, six years and three months) of her life have been typical.

You can't really be a cold-hearted murderer while also attracting attention with your silly behavior unless you're really sick, for example, like Jared Loughner, the guy who shot Gabrielle Giffords. That kind of sickness is not garden-variety, it is obvious and the doctors usually administer medication that leads the perpetrator to depression and remorse.

I can see that Amanda's behavior was distasteful to you, but it is not the behavior of a hardened criminal. And by hardened, I mean someone who can go six years and three months without breaking down and admitting at least a little bit about what they are accused of. Physically, it is not possible, without becoming crazier and crazier.

She is under a lot of pressure to keep the path expected of her from supporters I agree it must be a terrible strain and I think she is definatly showing signs. Remember the bruised knuckles and crying after one interview that didn't go so well. Personally I think there must be a part of her like most people that commit a random crime to need to be forgiven.This is what I heard when she told Dianne she just wants to be reconsidered as a person. I think if she is able to admit to her involvement whatever it was it will be better for her. She is young and still has time to show growth and contribute in a positive way.

 

[Mary_H]

She is under a lot of pressure to keep the path expected of her from supporters I agree it must be a terrible strain and I think she is definatly showing signs. Remember the bruised knuckles and crying after one interview that didn't go so well. Personally I think there must be a part of her like most people that commit a random crime to need to be forgiven.This is what I heard when she told Dianne she just wants to be reconsidered as a person. I think if she is able to admit to her involvement whatever it was it will be better for her. She is young and still has time to show growth and contribute in a positive way.

If she had committed a random crime, I agree, she would no doubt feel extremely regretful and want to be forgiven, if not make amends. I'm just trying to imagine what she would say if that turned out to be the situation. If you could have her say something, what do you think she should say?

 

[Bill Williams]

She is associating with those who may be wrongfully convicted to further her cause. I find her interviews and blog stiff and scripted. She does manage to press the Kerchers for their attention which is particularly offensive.

What I find offensive is why someone not connected to the Kerchers would find this offensive.

The other two items above are a matter of opinion and your right so to express.

 

[Bill Williams]

She is under a lot of pressure to keep the path expected of her from supporters I agree it must be a terrible strain and I think she is definatly showing signs. Remember the bruised knuckles and crying after one interview that didn't go so well. Personally I think there must be a part of her like most people that commit a random crime to need to be forgiven.This is what I heard when she told Dianne she just wants to be reconsidered as a person. I think if she is able to admit to her involvement whatever it was it will be better for her. She is young and still has time to show growth and contribute in a positive way.

What involvement do you think she had? Please cite evidence.

 

[codyjuneau]

But of course, the SC ignore the requirements of Article 192, which states the standards evidence should meet BEFORE it is considered in conjunction with other evidence. To anybody with an ounce of intelligence and objectivity NONE of the pieces of 'evidence' in this case meet this standard. The prank included.
The fact is that it's a massive step from a prank to an actual crime. Much shorter step to get from Rudy's previous crimes to this crime.

.
You didn't know that Alan Funt turned into a mass murderer?
.

 

[LBR]

Explain to me how Amanda and Raffaele could have killed Meredith and left a body which still had all its early evening meal in the stomach with none of it in the duodenum.

That's the first hurdle to overcome. With that in the way, no, they cannot be guilty.

From the Massei report:

“The fact [that the] duodenum [is] empty is not [necessarily] fully reliable.” (pg 179)

Until I can read Dr. Lalli's and Giancarlo Umani Ronchi's testimonies in English, I'll accept what I read in the Massei report on pages 177 – 179.

If you are also a human forensic pathologist who has read or written peer-reviewed papers on this topic, or has even had a great deal of experience with the topic of stomach emptying post-mortem during human autopsies, I'd be open to listening to what you have to say. If not, I'll wait until I can read the testimonies given by human forensic pathologists.

However, given your level of expertise, perhaps you were not satisfied with the medical specialist for the defense?

 

[AmyStrange]

Everyone does grieve differently

-

I have seen nothing of Amanda Knox since the crime was committed that let's me know she is a caring sensitive girl. True I don't know anything of her past other than the last 7 years. The behaviour at the Questura the kissing joking feet in Rafs lap is in stark contrast to the others. Unaware that her behaviour was annoying to her flatmates, Story of appearing nude and not embarrassed in front of her friend's boyfriend.The interviews where she explained everyone grieved differently rang false and hollow. She appeared to want to continue to have fun and did not appear to be too upset by the murder except to say it could have been her. The book , the hot video ,more evidence of her self absorption. Her first appearance free wearing a Halloween costume.The latest round of wanting to visit the grave after she was told it was against the Kercher's wishes. Self absorbed for sure maybe you know a different girl.

-

yeah, she looks creepy to me.

As fas as the rest of what you wrote, one thing I do have to comment about and that is your "grieved differently" comment. This isn't aimed at you, but at every single funeral I have been to, and I'm old enough to have been to a few (mostly relatives); I just don't feel a sadness that a person is gone. I'm just not empathetic in that way, but I cry at the end of Casablanca every single freakin time and I've watched it every single Christmas for the last twenty years. It's my second favorite movie of all time. My first is the original B&W Miracle on 34th Street and I cray all the way through that one.

Anyway, at every single funeral I've been to there are two different groups of people who attend. Those who sit at the front and cry and sometimes greet those who are paying their respects; and there's the other group (those you'll usually find downstairs in the guest room, mourner's room --or whatever it's called, hopefully you know what I mean) who are smoking, drinking, or just plain joking around. And some of those you would think would be in the crying section.

In short, people do grieve differently, that is a fact. Unfortunately when you have the whole world watching and you look creepy, everything you do looks creepy. Need I say more.

Look at one of the ways the Kercher's are grieving (and this is not a judgement call here, but merely an observation, I'd probably do the same thing in their shoes). I honestly believe they're going after two innocent kids (hopefully I have the presence of mind to step outside my grieving box and look at the evidence critically, and that is NOT an easy thing to do), and I also hope they realize Rudy may be getting out soon,

d

-

 

[kwill]

She is associating with those who may be wrongfully convicted to further her cause

This is a judgment about the motives of someone you admit you don't know, and whom you have formed an opinion about partly based on an anonymous person who mentioned her once publicly and then never again.

Again, the totality of her behavior before the crime is what matters, and the overwhelming consensus of people who actually knew her well during those years is that she is a kind and caring person.

. I find her interviews and blog stiff and scripted.

Her housemate was brutally murdered. She was accused of the crime on zero evidence. She lived in a foreign prison for four years, knowing she might never get out. Now she's being tried again. Yes, she's anxious! Can't imagine why.

 

[Bill Williams]

From the Massei report:

“The fact [that the] duodenum [is] empty is not [necessarily] fully reliable.” (pg 179)

Until I can read Dr. Lalli's and Giancarlo Umani Ronchi's testimonies in English, I'll accept what I read in the Massei report on pages 177 – 179.

I am no expert... everything I've read on stuff not associated with this case, uses an approximate demarcation time of 2 hours... if the contents of the meal are still in the stomach, then they died within 2 hours of their last meal. Then again I am sure I'll be corrected if wrong about this. The stuff I've read about the horrible Kercher murder is that based on this science, she had to have been gone by 9:30, which also just happens to fit a comprehensive timeline of Rudy-the-sole-killer.

What is telling is not even so much what is in the Massei report. What is telling for me is that when guilters/haters begin to try a comprehensive timeline, esp. one which tries to establish a late TOD, they have to invent scenarios about the meal...

- one guilter tried to claim that someone who was being tormented for 3 of the last five hours of her life, would not digest past the stomach because of stress.

- another speculated that Meredith had had a second, identical meal at about 9 pm, and that this, in essence, restarted the digestive clock.​

So for me it is not so much being able to understand the digestive process, as it watching guilters trying to reinvent the crime, so as to make it - and I mean MAKE it - fit. Like Massei had to do, to manufacture a finding of guilt, the guilters have to continually reinvent things, mainly through the heavy use of "probablies", or "it is compatible withs".

Anything but proof, even on the balance of probabilities. We're not talking about each individual item of evidence being "proven beyond a reasonable doubt," what guilters seem to do is simply invent scenarios "on the fly", because not to do so ruins the confirmation bias.

What guilters who do this miss is that the "probablies", and "it is compatible withs", themselves MUST have happened or their theory does not work.

In my reading of digestion issues and an admitted poor understanding of the science - Massei's comments on p. 177-179 fit that bill, not because of stomach-content-analysis per se, but as you point out above....

“The fact [that the] duodenum [is] empty is not [necessarily] fully reliable,” is obviously true, in the sense that fingerprinting theoretically is also not necessarily reliable.

What Massei fails to do is demonstrate why an otherwise fairly reliable science, which puts 1000s of real perps in jail each year, is in this case suddenly not reliable. He seems to disbelieve the straightforward stomach analysis stuff, while accepting the "low copy number", specious results Stefanoni got for her DNA analysis. He's skeptical on one, then liberal on the other - the reason is that he cherry picks whether or not to be liberal or conservative in his analysis based on a prior assumption of guilt!

One does not have to understand stomach content analysis to understand that Massei is cribbing a bit, to make evidence fit his conclusion, rather than the other way around.

 

[Dan O.]

From the Massei report:

“The fact [that the] duodenum [is] empty is not [necessarily] fully reliable.” (pg 179)

Are we playing whack-a-mole? Here's an answer from 29th September 2010, 10:59 PM:

We've already discussed this too. It would really behoove you to either do your homework, or adopt a more cautious tone because absolutely nothing you are coming up with is new.

Our information is that the autopsy videos clearly show Dr Lalli tying off the digestive system at multiple points, including the duodenum, as is standard practice. The idea that Dr Lalli somehow manually squeezed all of the matter in Meredith's duodenum to the very end of her bowel is ludicrous.

This is a Hail Mary argument from Ronchi, who is well aware that if there was nothing Meredith's duodenum then she didn't die at 23:30. It is nothing but speculation and if Massei or Ronchi had exercised due diligence it would never have made it into the Massei report (and justifying a 23:30 time of death in that document would have immediately become very difficult indeed).