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Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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It was her residence,she brought outside people or friends not her roommates to help with the prank. Did she organize it probably or she would have said otherwise. Did she enjoy it ? probably why do it if not for fun? Sorry not seeing any distortion here. People who know of the prank first hand could still come forward with details now that it is being talked about more openly.

You don't quite get it. That's fine.

Knox has said nothing about the level of planning and orchastration behind the prank.

It may have been planned weeks before, or it may have been planned on the spur of the moment whilst the housemate(s) were out.

However, the guilters are taking Knox as admitting a level of planning not contained within her actual admission. Not just 'she organised it or she would have said otherwise' but a level of masterminding indicating a malicious and borderline sociopathic mentality.

Guilters aren't just talking about 'enjoying it' - nor did Knox for that matter - but a level and type of enjoyment at causing others peoples suffering that is totally unlike the typical prank motivator which is a bit of fun and a laugh.

Guilters are acting like it was her idea, her planning, that no one would have done it if she hadn't suggested it and cajoled, forced or manipulated others to go along with it, that she came up with the idea because she likes causing harm and distress to other people, , that the distress and harm was the intention of the prank and not an unintended effect (although in retrospect it should have been predictable), and that she has a habit of intentionally causing others harm and distress for no better reason that she just enjoys it.

That's a heck of a lot different to what is contained and implied by her admission.

Quite simply, when they take Knox's admission and run away with it, they destroy the last remnants of their credibility.
 
It's difficult to believe it has gone this far, based on an "I'm guessing," a "He said," a "may have," and a "we don't know."

Andrea Vogt is showing her fondness for tabloid, yellow journalism by talking about this at all. The one credit I will give to Vogt though is that she's one of the few willing to put her name (and reputation) to this silliness.

They worked together and were friendly enough to share the story so no guess really. Joh posted or said the roommate claimed their was a prank involving masks and a fake assault. You like to highlight but what are you debating here. The story among friendly coworkers. A story that Amanda's roommate shared at work a month after the murder. Did he see a connection or did they just run out of things to talk about. It originated with them. Perhaps the friendship prevented him from talking about it further.
 
It was her residence,she brought outside people or friends not her roommates to help with the prank. Did she organize it probably or she would have said otherwise. Did she enjoy it ? probably why do it if not for fun? Sorry not seeing any distortion here. People who know of the prank first hand could still come forward with details now that it is being talked about more openly.

It was an April Fools joke for heavens sake. Do those on the side of guilt think Amanda would bust somebody's window in as an April Fools joke when it was not even April? And why would she chose just Filomena's room for the joke, she knew she was out of town. What about Laura? And she didn't even hide anything as she did in her joke. I don't get the logic, I just see the pro guilt side being silly.
 
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I think she said it was a prank that she played with a few of her roommates on a few other of her roommates. It's all meaningless though - I once lay on the floor with ketchup on my head as my flatmate pretended he had murdered me, this was all part of a Halloween joke - I don't think this was any indication of me being murderous
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Whatever you do, don't go to Italy, or better yet (if you do) stay the hell away from Perugia,

d

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One would think that with the guilter's collective brilliance, plus the benefit of have two, going on three trials to review, they could come up with a scenario they are not ashamed to post and defend? But apparently not, so it's back to April Fool's jokes, soccer nicknames, joke vibrators, Rudy the burglar's turd, whatever.

Personally I could care less what guilter posters think, much like I could care less about people that believe in Sasquatches, UFO crop circles, shape shifting reptilians, Loch Ness Monster, etc. What scares me is that apparently some adults working in the Italian justice system, in particular the Perugian one, share the same views as the guilter posters. That, to me is scary.
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This is the thing, isn't it. IMO Cassazione tried to reinvent the facts of the case in annulling Hellmann's acquittal. And then what does Crini do in re-prosecuting the case....

..... was the Mignini-led prosecution so obvious, that he simply repeated it by the numbers?

No. Crini started down a whole new path - and it was not just pooh in the toilet; now the kitchen knife is a match (or at least compatible with) the bedsheet outline - I'm not even sure Crini has a "two-knife theory", anymore like Mignini got away with.

And what has happened to Massei's attempt at a recreation - this was Rudy's crime, his motive of lust? Crini has dropped that too.

This offends at the very least the spirit of Double Jeopardy - if not the letter of the law. How many times can a prosecution (or a convicting judge) completely reinterpret a crime, so that eventually they get to convict people - people who have no prior background either for crime in general or for any of the elements of the crime as described by the prosecution....

Oh no, they're going to bring up the April Fools prank, I just know it....
 
:eek:z
It's difficult to believe it has gone this far, based on an "I'm guessing," a "He said," a "may have," and a "we don't know."

Andrea Vogt is showing her fondness for tabloid, yellow journalism by talking about this at all. The one credit I will give to Vogt though is that she's one of the few willing to put her name (and reputation) to this silliness.

You don't quite get it. That's fine.

Knox has said nothing about the level of planning and orchastration behind the prank.

It may have been planned weeks before, or it may have been planned on the spur of the moment whilst the housemate(s) were out.

However, the guilters are taking Knox as admitting a level of planning not contained within her actual admission. Not just 'she organised it or she would have said otherwise' but a level of masterminding indicating a malicious and borderline sociopathic mentality.

Guilters aren't just talking about 'enjoying it' - nor did Knox for that matter - but a level and type of enjoyment at causing others peoples suffering that is totally unlike the typical prank motivator which is a bit of fun and a laugh.

Guilters are acting like it was her idea, her planning, that no one would have done it if she hadn't suggested it and cajoled, forced or manipulated others to go along with it, that she came up with the idea because she likes causing harm and distress to other people, , that the distress and harm was the intention of the prank and not an unintended effect (although in retrospect it should have been predictable), and that she has a habit of intentionally causing others harm and distress for no better reason that she just enjoys it.

That's a heck of a lot different to what is contained and implied by her admission.

Quite simply, when they take Knox's admission and run away with it, they destroy the last remnants of their credibility.

Its hard to discuss anything with your guilter this and that . It was her apartment she was the only one in the know living there so it probably was her idea. Even if it wasn't she thought it would be fun to scare her roommates.
 
Bill Williams said:
It's difficult to believe it has gone this far, based on an "I'm guessing," a "He said," a "may have," and a "we don't know."

Andrea Vogt is showing her fondness for tabloid, yellow journalism by talking about this at all. The one credit I will give to Vogt though is that she's one of the few willing to put her name (and reputation) to this silliness.

They worked together and were friendly enough to share the story so no guess really. Joh posted or said the roommate claimed their was a prank involving masks and a fake assault. You like to highlight but what are you debating here. The story among friendly coworkers. A story that Amanda's roommate shared at work a month after the murder. Did he see a connection or did they just run out of things to talk about. It originated with them. Perhaps the friendship prevented him from talking about it further.

"No guess really"???? Did you witness the conversation among these coworkers, or are you just guessing?

And this "Joh" (whoever the heck he is) posted (or said) something that is impossible to verify, especially if the ultimate goal is to accuse someone of murder.....

"A story among friendly coworkers".... so, were they joking around when they told these stories, were they serious, were they trying to outdo one another with one-up-manship in telling salacious tales about friends.... just what is your point for typing those five words... "A story among friendly coworkers"?

"A story that Amanda's roommate shared at work a month after the murder. Did he see a connection or did they just run out of things to talk about." Hopefully you have an answer to that, or is the innuendo enough for the purpose at hand?

"Perhaps the friendship prevented him from talking about it further." Ah, I knew we'd get back to the Mafiosi concept of silence here....

Briars... would it not be better to provide a theory of how the crime happened? Say from 8 pm Nov 1, to 6 am Nov 6? Why is it that whenever this is tried (cf. Massei) it becomes even sillier and contradictory?
 
Its hard to discuss anything with your guilter this and that . It was her apartment she was the only one in the know living there so it probably was her idea. Even if it wasn't she thought it would be fun to scare her roommates.

It was probably her idea? You're certain it is a "probably" or are you probably "certain"? Is this your case built on a "probably"? Are you sure you're not Massei?

When in the history of non-sexual cohabitation among roommates has one or both of them EVER shied away from periodically "scaring the other"? And think it was fun? Which Criminal Code book are you reading?

Is THIS the key to unlocking a horrible murder? How is this honouring Meredith?
 
It was an April Fools joke for heavens sake. Do those on the side of guilt think Amanda would bust somebody's window in as an April Fools joke when it was not even April? And why would she chose just Filomena's room for the joke, she knew she was out of town. What about Laura? And she didn't even hide anything as she did in her joke. I don't get the logic, I just see the pro guilt side being silly.

I don't know if any one believes the window was broken before. The money could have been though. I still think the break-in was staged to steer people towards a robbery to cover for the insider involvement.
 
:eek:z



Its hard to discuss anything with your guilter this and that . It was her apartment she was the only one in the know living there so it probably was her idea. Even if it wasn't she thought it would be fun to scare her roommates.

But she wasn;t the only one in the 'know' - there were mutual friends involved. I don't know about you, but I invite my friends inside. When I lived in shared accomodation, it wasn't unheard of to invite friends of housemates in.

Some shared accomodation has an area for precisely this purpose.

Even if we accept the notion that she was the only one in the know, that doesn't prohibit any of the mutual friends from suggesting the prank. You don't need to own or live in the house to suggest a house based prank. They could have done any of the other classic pranks. None of it requires residence.

I've a feeling you're just suggesting these assumptions in order to make Knox's admission seem worse than it is. You're ironically becoming a classic example of the very same distortion mongering that we're discussing.

I apologise if you are well and truly submitting these assumptions due to a legitimate desire to get to the bottom of things, but it's becoming mighty suspicious that your assumptions just happen to always be ones that make Knox look worse.
 
It was her place , did she say it wasn't her idea?Why not ask her on her blog Bill then you will have something to post about.
 
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Whatever you do, don't go to Italy, or better yet (if you do) stay the hell away from Perugia,

d

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Good advice

We had a TV show in the UK last year where they convinced some poor guy that there was a Zombie Apocalypse - I think that was the most elaborate prank I've seen and I think quite a few people were a little bit jealous
 
I don't know if any one believes the window was broken before. The money could have been though. I still think the break-in was staged to steer people towards a robbery to cover for the insider involvement.

What insider though?

Remember: Knox's known MO when staging a burglary is to take and hide things so it looks like items are missing and have therefore been taken by a burglar.

The 'staging' alleged by the prosecution is that things WERE NOT taken.

In short, Knox's known MO is mutally incompatible with the purported MO of the fictional 'stager'.
 
The reason I posted on JREF is because my curiosity got the best of me. I wanted to know whether there were people who believed in Amanda's and Raffaele's innocence dispassionately, but who were also open to the possibility of their guilt. It appears that the answer would be, no. (But thanks Planigale – your response was at least dispassionate and genuine).


Explain to me how Amanda and Raffaele could have killed Meredith and left a body which still had all its early evening meal in the stomach with none of it in the duodenum.

That's the first hurdle to overcome. With that in the way, no, they cannot be guilty.

You come to people who have examined the evidence in great detail, and come to a considered opinion over several years, and ask them to be "open to the possibility of guilt". Why? Speaking for myself, if some utterly astounding and hitherto unsuspected evidence of guilt appeared, of course I would be open to the possibility! But just to say in the abstract, with nothing but exculpatory evidence actually before us (plus irrelevancies and a ton of misinterpretation), are you open to the possibility of guilt, well this is meaningless.

I'm reminded of a retort I sometimes make to homoeopathy proponents, when they demand an "open mind". I'm as open to the idea that homoeopathic dilutions have a physiological effect as I am to the idea that insulin is not a useful treatment for diabetes.

Rolfe.
 
There's another claim that LBR makes, one of equivalence between PGP and PIP. He/she basically summarizes that there is JREF and IIP which is pro-innocence, and two (warring) PMF's and TJMK which is pro-guilt. He/she then implies that the "public mind" is split.

There is no equivalence. The discussion here on JREF and esp. on IIP has public, known experts in their respective fields, lending their names and reputations to their opinions. Note: John Douglas, Steve Moore, Ron Hendry, and a whole host of DNA experts who have put their names and backgrounds (ie. verifiability) to their opinions on such subjects as why the original DNA evidence that Massei saw was bogus.

What is there on the PGP side? A Wiki from someone named McCall. That's all that is publicly known. A faux-legal expert named Machiavelli, who also goes by Yummi. Peggy Ganong is known, as is Peter Q. But then there's Kermit and the rest with an interesting array of names, but not any verifiable expertise - particularly Kermit, who at one time was the go-to guy in understanding the break-in. Witness his powerpoints.

Andrea Vogt is a bit of an exception, as is Barbie Nadeau. Both lend their names, their backgrounds and reputations to their words - and for that they should be thanked. Myself, I have expressed many negative opinions of the content of what Vogt pushes - esp. her support for the Wiki - but at base she's saying, "This is me, deal with it."

One can respect that.

But at the end of the day it is not an equivalence. Other than Alan Dershowitz, who is there? Partrizia Stefanoni?

Unless there is a forum I haven't heard of is it not the case that this is the only unmoderated (to all intents and purposes) extended open forum, where all people are welcome to discuss the case? (at their admitted peril)
It may be a proveable hypothesis that an emerging concensus in this type of forum becomes the closest representation of the truth, although ultimately this case rests on a dichotomy, and that would cloud this notion.
 
There are some stats in the picture contained in this article which are quite revealing.

NUMBERS OF JUSTICE
The data that is of concern to the ministry Paola Severino in the 2011 report deposited in the House.
backlog
9 million of which:
- 5.5 for the civil, 3.4 for the criminal

Average time to define
Civil trial 2645 days, Criminal Proceedings 1753 days

togas
8,834 stipendiary magistrates in organic, 1,317 unfilled posts

The increase in compensation
In 2003: 5 million, In 2011: 84 million
€ 46 million the amount that the State
had to pay for wrongful imprisonment

28 000: in prison awaiting trial

http://albatros-volandocontrovento..../sabrina-misseri-visto-che-non-si-riesce.html
 
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Good advice

We had a TV show in the UK last year where they convinced some poor guy that there was a Zombie Apocalypse - I think that was the most elaborate prank I've seen and I think quite a few people were a little bit jealous
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right up there with Orson Welles' "War of the Worlds" prank which I think was played on Oct 30 as a Halloween episode no less:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_War_of_the_Worlds_(radio_drama)

"The War of the Worlds is an episode of the American radio drama anthology series The Mercury Theatre on the Air. It was performed as a Halloween episode of the series on October 30, 1938, and aired over the Columbia Broadcasting System radio network. Directed and narrated by actor and future filmmaker Orson Welles, the episode was an adaptation of H. G. Wells's novel The War of the Worlds (1898)... "

d

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For some reason these lyrics came to mind.

You quotin' figures and droppin' names
You tellin' stories and playing games
You're overlaughin' when things ain't funny
You tryin' to sound like the big money
You know if talk was criminal
You'd lead a life of crime
Because your mind is on vacation and your mouth finger is workin' overtime
 
It was an April Fools joke for heavens sake. Do those on the side of guilt think Amanda would bust somebody's window in as an April Fools joke when it was not even April? And why would she chose just Filomena's room for the joke, she knew she was out of town. What about Laura? And she didn't even hide anything as she did in her joke. I don't get the logic, I just see the pro guilt side being silly.

When you don't have anything real to prove someones guilty, people tend to grasp at anything like a party video, or maybe a ticket, pranks from years ago, a comment in twitter, or maybe their siblings pictures, or <enter PGP drivel>

The court will make a verdict in a couple weeks, I hope it is more intelligent than a "poop motive", maybe the PGP is getting ready for motive fantasy #529 with a prank-poop motive now.
 
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