Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Kaosium]

Rudy sliced his fingers when his hand slipped along the blade. I want to ask if the bleeding was sufficient to leave the amounts of blood seen outside or downstairs, wouldn't it still be bleeding when he was seen at the disco a few hours later? Wouldn't it be noticeable?

Oddly enough, Rudy claims in his diary that it didn't bleed. I can't think of any reason he'd lie about that, being as his story included him tangling with someone with a knife anyway and it would have been a way of 'explaining' some of the evidence against him.

It is also possible that with Meredith's blood all over his hands he didn't realize he was bleeding from those cuts and they soon stopped bleeding of their own accord. It may be he was so messed up on drugs he didn't realize he was actually cut until later when it had stopped bleeding and he assumed it was just like a rope burn which doesn't usually bleed very much.

 

[JREF2010]

Oddly enough, Rudy claims in his diary that it didn't bleed. I can't think of any reason he'd lie about that, being as his story included him tangling with someone with a knife anyway and it would have been a way of 'explaining' some of the evidence against him.

It is also possible that with Meredith's blood all over his hands he didn't realize he was bleeding from those cuts and they soon stopped bleeding of their own accord. It may be he was so messed up on drugs he didn't realize he was actually cut until later when it had stopped bleeding and he assumed it was just like a rope burn which doesn't usually bleed very much.

Of course, once again you are thwarted by the goofball forensic team that allowed the towels to rot away and become useless to be tested for Rudys blood.

Or they did find other DNA there , and made it disappear too, to maintain the Amanda and Raffaele satan witch sex orgy Miginini theory....that now must have happened between 9:26pm and 10:13pm.

 

[Diocletus]

I haven't seen photos of the light switch either. It might have been another "presumed blood" stain that wasn't blood, like a couple of the samples from the primary crime scene.

The stains on the sidewalk are rings with a hollow center, some of which are a couple of inches in diameter. I don't think the cat is responsible, but nor do I think they are connected to the murder. They don't have the right appearance, and they don't look fresh. But I'm at a loss to explain them, just as I am at a loss to explain the bloody tissues.

Police investigations turn up really bizarre red herrings. Sometimes they even turn up evidence of unrelated crimes that nobody knew about. I see this in case after case. I do not assume that because something is unusual, it must be relevant.

I think the blood rings are drips off of a garment that has been semi-rinsed. But who knows.

Stefanoni's use of the terms "presumed" blood . . . Seminal fluid . . . Saliva refers to the extraction cartridge/protocol that she inserted into the EZ1 extraction machine to perform the extraction process.

 

[Diocletus]

Of course, once again you are thwarted by the goofball forensic team that allowed the towels to rot away and become useless to be tested for Rudys blood.

Or they did find other DNA there , and made it disappear too, to maintain the Amanda and Raffaele satan witch sex orgy Miginini theory....that now must have happened between 9:26pm and 10:13pm.

The crazy thing is that even if they had found Rudy's blood, and semen, and could show that he had been downstairs, they would STILL say that Knox and Sollecito were guilty.

 

[Bill Williams]

Since you didn't follow the case until after the Hellmann verdict, how did you come to this conclusion? What does 'same-day reports during the layout of the prosecution's case mean? Are you talking about the trial or hearings or what?

In reading through Peggy Ganong's blog many, many months ago |(both PMF and her personal blog from well, well before Hellmann's acquittals - you do know that the Internet is notorious for saving documents!), she made it plain that her position on all this was based on receiving same day reports from the courtroom - I believe this was in the Jan to Dec 2009 period. She said she was able to understand the case before others in Seattle. Peggy at one time said that Anrea was the journalist she trusted because Vogt had been there for every session and spoke the language. Your mileage will vary, obviously.

They weren't 'debunked'.

LOL! I have officially now become confused... I've posted that list of 13 myths of the Massei trial "thousands of times!", and now someone says Massei did not debunk major prosecution claims? So I am tired, weary, and will not engage you in this. Please otherwise provide cites from Massei where he accepts mixed blood, where he accepts that Raffaele called the 112 line AFTER the postal police arrived, where Massei says Maeredith and Amanda were on bad terms, and where Massei says the two students had some sort of psychopathology.

I get criticized when I provide the cites saying that Massei debunked those thongs - and more things, too. I feel a well placed "whatever" lurking....

Please when was this? Marriott was hired within days of Amanda's arrest. The 'defense' in the broadest sense was in action withing days.

On what basis do you make these claims?

The PR campaign I was referring to was the one which the guilters (in the broadest sense of the term) used to try to change public opinion, and perhaps even Italy's judicial opinion. This started with the first tabloid news stories that "Knox kept coming up with different accounts", and continue through to Harry Rag's cut and paste of factoids like "mixed blood," or "abundant DNA found"... and continue to these days now that Harry Rag is vowing a Twitter War leading up to the Jan 30 verdict.

It's all there... and some get criticized for simply pointing it out! LOL.

 

[Diocletus]

In reading through Peggy Ganong's blog many, many months ago |(both PMF and her personal blog from well, well before Hellmann's acquittals - you do know that the Internet is notorious for saving documents!), she made it plain that her position on all this was based on receiving same day reports from the courtroom - I believe this was in the Jan to Dec 2009 period. She said she was able to understand the case before others in Seattle. Peggy at one time said that Anrea was the journalist she trusted because Vogt had been there for every session and spoke the language. Your mileage will vary, obviously.



LOL! I have officially now become confused... I've posted that list of 13 myths of the Massei trial "thousands of times!", and now someone says Massei did not debunk major prosecution claims? So I am tired, weary, and will not engage you in this. Please otherwise provide cites from Massei where he accepts mixed blood, where he accepts that Raffaele called the 112 line AFTER the postal police arrived, where Massei says Maeredith and Amanda were on bad terms, and where Massei says the two students had some sort of psychopathology.

I get criticized when I provide the cites saying that Massei debunked those thongs - and more things, too. I feel a well placed "whatever" lurking....




The PR campaign I was referring to was the one which the guilters (in the broadest sense of the term) used to try to change public opinion, and perhaps even Italy's judicial opinion. This started with the first tabloid news stories that "Knox kept coming up with different accounts", and continue through to Harry Rag's cut and paste of factoids like "mixed blood," or "abundant DNA found"... and continue to these days now that Harry Rag is vowing a Twitter War leading up to the Jan 30 verdict.

It's all there... and some get criticized for simply pointing it out! LOL.

She'd be able to think for herself if she hadn't wrecked her mind with all of those drugs she took.

 

[Mary_H]

<snip>Please when was this? Marriott was hired within days of Amanda's arrest. The 'defense' in the broadest sense was in action withing days.

Not really. Amanda's family was inundated with inquiries from the press, who had already mined the defendants' myspace pages and published what they found there. The family hired Marriott so they would have someone to refer calls to, not to mount a media defense. Amanda had not even been charged with a crime.

On what basis do you make these claims?

Bill probably bases his claim that the prosecution was running unopposed in the media on the fact that hundreds of news articles were generated from information obtained in Perugia, compared to about zero articles generated from information obtained from Amanda's family.

To be fair, the defense using the family had a bit of a 'road show' doing national TV shows and their surrogates on crime shows like Nancy Grace. Bremner was out talking railroad job from hell etc.

This all came later. Paul Ciolino first used the phrase "railroad job from hell" in April, 2008. The Friends of Amanda was not formed until October of 2008, almost a year after the arrests. I don't know about Nancy Grace, but Curt and Edda appeared on Oprah in February of 2010 -- after Amanda had been in prison for 2 1/2 years and was convicted.

48 Hours hired Paul Ciolino to investigate; it doesn't look like Amanda's family requested the show, although they were interviewed for it. The other advances in the media happened when more people started questioning the accusation and supporting the defendants, but that took quite awhile. The biggest influx of supporters appeared after the initial trial, as evidenced by this thread, which started in December 2009.

Both sides made this a new media trial.

False. Italian and British papers made it a media trial, and the families felt forced to fight fire with fire. The defense lawyers didn't want them to go public, but the reality of the situation made clear that it was going to be necessary.

I find it difficult to blame the family for hiring Maresca and taking his advice. I wonder if there is any of the family members that have doubt.

Do they keep civil trials separate from criminal trials in England? If I were in their shoes, I would not feel I was playing fair to participate in a joint civil-criminal trail in which I stood to benefit from the defendant's guilt.

 

[Grinder]

In reading through Peggy Ganong's blog many, many months ago |(both PMF and her personal blog from well, well before Hellmann's acquittals - you do know that the Internet is notorious for saving documents!), she made it plain that her position on all this was based on receiving same day reports from the courtroom - I believe this was in the Jan to Dec 2009 period. She said she was able to understand the case before others in Seattle. Peggy at one time said that Anrea was the journalist she trusted because Vogt had been there for every session and spoke the language. Your mileage will vary, obviously.

Are you suggesting that StewartHome2000 was Vogt? She never made it plain that her position was based on same day reports but regardless I don't recall her ever stating that the reports came from Vogt. Since Vogt was making money by selling her stories to the PI, it would be odd for her to scoop herself.

LOL! I have officially now become confused... I've posted that list of 13 myths of the Massei trial "thousands of times!", and now someone says Massei did not debunk major prosecution claims? So I am tired, weary, and will not engage you in this. Please otherwise provide cites from Massei where he accepts mixed blood, where he accepts that Raffaele called the 112 line AFTER the postal police arrived, where Massei says Maeredith and Amanda were on bad terms, and where Massei says the two students had some sort of psychopathology.

There is chasm between not accepting or stating as fact and debunking.

Here's one place that Massei discusses the call to the Carabinieri

And then, a change of version takes place and he tells the Postal Police (who it can be held that, according [81] to what is maintained by the defendants’ defence, arrived after Raffaele Sollecito’s telephone call to 112, and this by nothing other than the fact that regarding these calls to 112, the Postal Police say nothing; in the same way that they said nothing about those that preceded them, at 12:40 pm and at 12:50 pm; each of these phone calls being of a not brief duration that, therefore, would not have escaped the attention of the two police officers) that there has been a burglary.

Perhaps you can give a quote where Massei 'debunks' the Carabinieri call.

 

[Mary_H]

Your roommate would never have to know... Unless your acquaintance was a non-flusher

I was thinking in terms of privacy. When you don't know your guest very well, it makes sense to locate them in the bathroom away from where you're going to be. Which points up the idiocy of the "turd" explanation. What -- did Meredith make a special trip to the bathroom at the other end of the house just to make sure Rudy hadn't left anything there?

That makes perfect sense. The key to the downstairs apartment was hanging right there in the entry hall. You would hand Rudy the key and send him on his way. He's used that bathroom before and is friends with the boys so you know they won't mind even if he doesn't flush again. The alternative is to send him to the bathroom that your roommates are responsible for keeping clean. You've just made a fuss about one roommate not cleaning the toilet, you are not going to compound that fuss by sending a man to soil the other one.

I don't think Meredith would have given the key to her boyfriend's apartment to her boyfriend's ne'er-do-well friend.

There is precedence for having the boyfriend use the bathroom closest to the girl he is visiting. In mid October, Laura had a handyman friend spend the night. He was "seen" comming out of the bathroom by the kitchen the next morning.

Rudy was not Meredith's boyfriend.

 

[Bill Williams]

Are you suggesting that StewartHome2000 was Vogt? She never made it plain that her position was based on same day reports but regardless I don't recall her ever stating that the reports came from Vogt. Since Vogt was making money by selling her stories to the PI, it would be odd for her to scoop herself.




There is chasm between not accepting or stating as fact and debunking.

Here's one place that Massei discusses the call to the Carabinieri

And then, a change of version takes place and he tells the Postal Police (who it can be held that, according [81] to what is maintained by the defendants’ defence, arrived after Raffaele Sollecito’s telephone call to 112, and this by nothing other than the fact that regarding these calls to 112, the Postal Police say nothing; in the same way that they said nothing about those that preceded them, at 12:40 pm and at 12:50 pm; each of these phone calls being of a not brief duration that, therefore, would not have escaped the attention of the two police officers) that there has been a burglary.

Perhaps you can give a quote where Massei 'debunks' the Carabinieri call.

I've quoted it dozens of times.

Massei gives the times for the two calls to 112, the last one at 12:52, and then says that the postal police arrived just before 1 pm.

If this is not good enough, you win.

 

[Strozzi]

Oddly enough, Rudy claims in his diary that it didn't bleed. I can't think of any reason he'd lie about that, being as his story included him tangling with someone with a knife anyway and it would have been a way of 'explaining' some of the evidence against him.

It is also possible that with Meredith's blood all over his hands he didn't realize he was bleeding from those cuts and they soon stopped bleeding of their own accord. It may be he was so messed up on drugs he didn't realize he was actually cut until later when it had stopped bleeding and he assumed it was just like a rope burn which doesn't usually bleed very much.

Weren't the cuts still healing ten days to two weeks after the murder? How do you slice the flesh of the underside of your fingers with a knife, not bleed, but still have noticeable cuts healing ten days to two weeks later? How long did it take for the slice wounds to heal completely? Three weeks? Four weeks? Surely the police or prison staff noted that in the record.

 

[Strozzi]

Rudy's got the worst luck for an innocent guy. Not only did he get stabbed in the abdomen earlier on by a drug dealer, he got his fingers sliced struggling with a mysterious killer while coming out of the bathroom with his pants down. Then, the night after his secret love is killed by some other guy, Rudy goes dancing at the club and doesn't hear the DJ ask everyone to pause for a moment of silence, leaving Rudy to dance on alone in front of everyone else as they stop to remember Meredith. Then he is dragged into the case with an Italian nerd he's never even met and falsely accused by Mignini of being a bit player in the murder under the spell of a Luciferina. "Poor Rudy".

 

[RandyN]

The cat had nipple piercings. Eight of them!

That's six more than I have.

So you are saying that you have two nipple piercings then?

 

[Mary_H]

Rudy's got the worst luck for an innocent guy. Not only did he get stabbed in the abdomen earlier on by a drug dealer, he got his fingers sliced struggling with a mysterious killer while coming out of the bathroom with his pants down. Then, the night after his secret love is killed by some other guy, Rudy goes dancing at the club and doesn't hear the DJ ask everyone to pause for a moment of silence, leaving Rudy to dance on alone in front of everyone else as they stop to remember Meredith. Then he is dragged into the case with an Italian nerd he's never even met and falsely accused by Mignini of being a bit player in the murder under the spell of a Luciferina. "Poor Rudy".

Don't forget, he bought a computer that, as luck would have it, turned out to be stolen property!

 

[Bill Williams]

There is chasm between not accepting or stating as fact and debunking.

I'll give you one thing. At least the above is not dietrology... a legitimate disagreement about definitions I suppose....

However take the one thing that has IMO attracted the most wild dietrology of guilters.... the psychopathology of AK and RS.

Mignini spent a lot of time at trial trying to demonstrate this.... all the way to his invented dialogue, which he puts into Amanda's mouth - dialogue which was supposed to summarize Knox's factoid-role in this, "We will make you have sex." Mignini goes on to say that this is "just a hypothesis", making mouths drop over why Massei would have allowed such speculation....

But no matter.... this claim of Mignini's was enough for guilters to report things to websites in Seattle, real time, and no one seems to have bothered with the fact that Massei writes something completely different in his motivations report.

The kids are not only psychologically "normal", Massei hiumself has to go into a long song and dance to explain his own mystification as to why these normal kids would choose to be involved in what, essentially for Massei, was Rudy's evil act. That's the basis of Massei's claim that they made a choice for evil because of the marijuana.

Otherwise, like no intervening footprints between Meredith's bedroom and the imprint on the bathroom rug - Massei, as he admits, is simply at a loss to explain it...

.... all the while, while Mignini WAS offering the explanation from the prosecution point of view. AK was a depraved woman-raper, and Raffaele was her lapdog.

If this is not a refutation of Mignini's various motives that he cycled through, both before and at trial, then I don't know what is.

The point is, Massei refutes Mignini on at least 13 important points - one is the relative timing of the 112 call when compared to the postal polices' arrival, another is the friendly state of Meredith's and Amanda's relationship....

I just wish people would read Massei and not engage in dietrology over Massei's plain meaning.

 

[e740JPH]

They have all had serious issues, but our recognition of that has never stopped them from being able to exercise their temporal powers.

Mary,
You are the best - "temporal powers" - I had to pick myself off the floor after that. These are distressing times - you made my day and helped me regain my perspective. Thanks!

 

[Strozzi]

So you are saying that you have two nipple piercings then?

Randy, I'm in my 60's. I'm probably the only person on this board who has never even seen marijuana, let alone been near anyone smoking it. At my age, nipple rings would only have one purpose and that would be to enable the paramedics to quickly hook up a defibrillator.

 

[RandyN]

I haven't seen photos of the light switch either. It might have been another "presumed blood" stain that wasn't blood, like a couple of the samples from the primary crime scene.

The stains on the sidewalk are rings with a hollow center, some of which are a couple of inches in diameter. I don't think the cat is responsible, but nor do I think they are connected to the murder. They don't have the right appearance, and they don't look fresh. But I'm at a loss to explain them, just as I am at a loss to explain the bloody tissues.

Police investigations turn up really bizarre red herrings. Sometimes they even turn up evidence of unrelated crimes that nobody knew about. I see this in case after case. I do not assume that because something is unusual, it must be relevant.

Somewhere I recall seeing or reading about this bullseye blood drip and what causes it. Outer ring of blood with an empty center. I watch too many of these true crime shows to recall which now...seems like it was DNA on trial or CSI on trial...one of those. It is a know phenomena... at least what causes a blood pattern like that is.

So, if the window is left open for the cat to get in and out then why cant police or anyone else for that matter just open up that window? Or was this a spider man cat like Guede the killer?

One more thing about the police entry into the lower flat. No one in the Perugia police dept knows how to pick a simple door lock? They have to use a flying kick from Lorena (actually quite amazing action for a fat chick btw....don't hate me Mary I am using sarcasm) to bust the glass and ruin the crime scene with such "Big Foot" maneuvers?

I think Bo Jo (RS almost useless lawyer) knows there was human blood found downstairs. I doubt she is guessing about something like this.

Pictures of the cats injury would seem to be a necessary task for police since Stefanoni clearly understood the cat may be bleeding all over the place...certainly they took cat injury pics right? Right after they took cat paw print blood from the light switch.

Rolfe...how much blood does a cat hold?

 

[Mary_H]

Mary,
You are the best - "temporal powers" - I had to pick myself off the floor after that. These are distressing times - you made my day and helped me regain my perspective. Thanks!

Any time, e740JPH.

 

[Mary_H]

Randy, I'm in my 60's. I'm probably the only person on this board who has never even seen marijuana, let alone been near anyone smoking it. At my age, nipple rings would only have one purpose and that would be to enable the paramedics to quickly hook up a defibrillator.

ROFL!!!!