Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Briars said:
You promote attacking a grieving family based on a rumor , nice ,and telling.
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What about the endless attacks on the families and supporters of Amanda and Raff? They are 2 families who have had their loved ones locked up for nothing over 4 years and are still struggling to defend them against further injustice, and against financial ruin.

Why don't you have anything to say about that?
 
Antony said:
What about the endless attacks on the families and supporters of Amanda and Raff? They are 2 families who have had their loved ones locked up for nothing over 4 years and are still struggling to defend them against further injustice, and against financial ruin.

Why don't you have anything to say about that?
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It's not about respecting Meredith's memory, but getting that witch Amanda,

d

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AmyStrange said:
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It's not about respecting Meredith's memory, but getting that witch Amanda,

d

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This is what it is all about.

Does anyone know when Harry Rag started his original Internet campaign? Was it during the original trial and before the original conviction? If so, it would seem odd for someone to be so convinced of Amanda and Raffaele's guilt, even before any of the *cough* evidence had been heard
 
NancyS said:
This is what it is all about.

Does anyone know when Harry Rag started his original Internet campaign? Was it during the original trial and before the original conviction? If so, it would seem odd for someone to be so convinced of Amanda and Raffaele's guilt, even before any of the *cough* evidence had been heard
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In my view, the PMF PR campaign really got going when Andrea Vogt would send same-day reports to Seattle for Peggy's webpage, all during the layout of the prosecution's case.

In a sense, they were simply believing what Mignini/Comodi were saying, unopposed, before any counter evidence could be presented... much less before when the actual Massei motivations report came out. It's important to remember that even the Massei report debunks many of the prosecution's claims which guilters these days think is standard - bad relations between Meredith/Amanda, mixed blood, psychopathology of AK/RS, Raffaele calling 112 after the arrival of the postal police - all these things and more were debunked by Massei even in convicting the pair.

Yet when the PR campaign got revved up, this was early in the game when the prosecution was running unopposed.
 
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NancyS said:
This is what it is all about.

Does anyone know when Harry Rag started his original Internet campaign? Was it during the original trial and before the original conviction? If so, it would seem odd for someone to be so convinced of Amanda and Raffaele's guilt, even before any of the *cough* evidence had been heard
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The earliest post I can find from HarryRag are comments to news articles during December of 2008:

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=504236

"For anyone who is interested in the facts behind the media spin, and who cares to learn more about the victim of this terrible murder - Meredith Kercher - there is an excellent discussion board

http://perugiamurderfile.freeforums.org

"as well as an interesting blog

truejustice.org

"These online resources are not for profit. Anyone can read and/or participate and people from around the world do. They have followed this case since last November, and are in no way related to Amanda Knox. Nor are they her friends.

"Posted by Harry Rag on December 3, 2008 at 6:06 AM"

They almost all are the exact same comments (cut and pasted word for word) referring to TJMK and PMF and also that these sites have been up since 2007, long before the October 28, 2008 judgement. The comments mostly attack Amanda and very few actually mention Raffaele or Rudy, which to me is a dead give away that this is not really about Meredith,

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Mignini faces a day in court this coming Wednesday. Machiavelli assures us this is the preliminary where everything against Mr. Mignini will be dismissed. Time will tell, Mr. Machiavelli always seems to have special access to information.
 
Bill Williams said:
In my view, the PMF PR campaign really got going when Andrea Vogt would send same-day reports to Seattle for Peggy's webpage, all during the layout of the prosecution's case.
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Since you didn't follow the case until after the Hellmann verdict, how did you come to this conclusion? What does 'same-day reports during the layout of the prosecution's case mean? Are you talking about the trial or hearings or what?

In a sense, they were simply believing what Mignini/Comodi were saying, unopposed, before any counter evidence could be presented... much less before when the actual Massei motivations report came out. It's important to remember that even the Massei report debunks many of the prosecution's claims which guilters these days think is standard - bad relations between Meredith/Amanda, mixed blood, psychopathology of AK/RS, Raffaele calling 112 after the arrival of the postal police - all these things and more were debunked by Massei even in convicting the pair
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They weren't 'debunked'.

Yet when the PR campaign got revved up, this was early in the game when the prosecution was running unopposed.
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Please when was this? Marriott was hired within days of Amanda's arrest. The 'defense' in the broadest sense was in action withing days.

On what basis do you make these claims?
 
Thanks for the replies - it's definitely not about justice for Meredith if they were trying to influence public opinion prior to even the end of the first trial. If anything, it's a huge insult to the memory of Meredith and to a bereaved family who claim to be desperate for the truth
 
AmyStrange said:
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The earliest post I can find from HarryRag are comments to news articles during December of 2008:

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=504236

"For anyone who is interested in the facts behind the media spin, and who cares to learn more about the victim of this terrible murder - Meredith Kercher - there is an excellent discussion board

http://perugiamurderfile.freeforums.org

"as well as an interesting blog

truejustice.org

"These online resources are not for profit. Anyone can read and/or participate and people from around the world do. They have followed this case since last November, and are in no way related to Amanda Knox. Nor are they her friends.

"Posted by Harry Rag on December 3, 2008 at 6:06 AM"

They almost all are the exact same comments (cut and pasted word for word) referring to TJMK and PMF and also that these sites have been up since 2007, long before the October 28, 2008 judgement. The comments mostly attack Amanda and very few actually mention Raffaele or Rudy, which to me is a dead give away that this is not really about Meredith,

d

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From an Italian mag about the same time -

My search verifies your dates. It really came on during the trial.

PMF came from another crime-tourist site that found this case too distressing to keep going.
 
NancyS said:
Thanks for the replies - it's definitely not about justice for Meredith if they were trying to influence public opinion prior to even the end of the first trial. If anything, it's a huge insult to the memory of Meredith and to a bereaved family who claim to be desperate for the truth
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To be fair, the defense using the family had a bit of a 'road show' doing national TV shows and their surrogates on crime shows like Nancy Grace. Bremner was out talking railroad job from hell etc.

Both sides made this a new media trial.

I find it difficult to blame the family for hiring Maresca and taking his advice. I wonder if there is any of the family members that have doubt.
 
Grinder said:
From an Italian mag about the same time -

My search verifies your dates. It really came on during the trial.

PMF came from another crime-tourist site that found this case too distressing to keep going.
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Does this comment, attached to a Croydon Guardian article, indicate a predecessor to TJMK:

5:19am Sun 16 Nov 08

Soozie UK says...

There is also a message and discussion board, co-run by a local Croydon resident where other UK'ers can keep up to date with events in Italy as they happen. Several of the members are also translators who update the board regularly with any news.

Since UK media coverage has been very poor, it would be lovely to see some local support for Meredith Kercher in the weeks leading up to the trial on December 4th. Please feel free to drop by and add to the discussion.

http://allofus.invisionplus.net/?mforum=allofus&showforum=3
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Who is this local Croydon resident?
 
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Strozzi said:
Very interesting, Dan O. Never occurred to me that Meredith might have been tending the injured cat and dealing with cat blood downstairs.

Is there any information how the cat might have cut itself? I am assuming that the cat would have fled back away from the door area at the first noise of pounding or kicking on the door, and that the cat's injuries were therefore not caused at that moment but were sustained earlier by a broken glass or other sharp object. That is beside the fact that cat blood was already in several areas of the flat as soon as the police entered, which means that the cat did not become injured as the door was broken in and the police entered. If I recall, the cat had some way to get in and out of the downstairs flat through a window left ajar for that purpose. Was there broken glass outside that the cat might have cut itself on? Perhaps a shard of broken glass under Filomena's window? Overlooked by the police even on their smoking breaks?

I want to ask how long it took between the discovery of the victim's body for Perugia police to enter and search the downstairs flat?

In my view, the police should have immediately (instantly) broken into and searched the downstairs flat as soon as they discovered the body upstairs (I don't fault the way the police kicked in the door - I just fault how long it took them to do it after discovering the first body.) A second victim downstairs might have still been alive and in dire need of medical care. Who knows, the police might have even discovered the perpetrator holed up downstairs.
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There is just something so odd about the cat blood and downstairs flat that tells me were not getting the whole story.
 
Grinder said:
To be fair, the defense using the family had a bit of a 'road show' doing national TV shows and their surrogates on crime shows like Nancy Grace. Bremner was out talking railroad job from hell etc.

Both sides made this a new media trial.

I find it difficult to blame the family for hiring Maresca and taking his advice. I wonder if there is any of the family members that have doubt.
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My only real beef with Maresca was the projection of the death photo of Meredith. The fact that no one (that I've heard about anyway) from the PGP camp (or even from Meredith's parents or siblings) has ever complained about this (plus the almost nonexistent mention of Raffaele or Rudy) is when I began questioning if this campaign against Amanda was really about Meredith at all,

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Dan O. said:
We know that one person had a key to the downstairs apartment and would have reason to have entered that apartment, roll up the bedding on the downstairs bed, handle the injured cat and transfer blood from the cat to the light switch. She could not be questioned to verify if she was responsible for any of this and cats tend to not to respond to harsh interrogations.

I recall some of the injuries on Meredith's hands were point like pricks. The prosecution tried to claim that these were defensive wounds from fending off the point of a knife blade. To me, it sounds more like what you get from trying to pick up a cat that doesn't want to be picked up.
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Is there any evidence that this cat was really wounded?

If the cat was wounded inside the house, I would not expect to find its blood outside, leading up/down the steps.
 
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Diocletus said:
Does this comment, attached to a Croydon Guardian article, indicate a predecessor to TJMK:

http://allofus.invisionplus.net/?mforum=allofus&showforum=3
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"5:19am Sun 16 Nov 08"

[...]

"Since UK media coverage has been very poor, it would be lovely to see some local support for Meredith Kercher in the weeks leading up to the trial on December 4th. Please feel free to drop by and add to the discussion... "

Am I the only one that can't get this page to come up?

Ok my dates are off, sorry.

The first trial (I look at it as comparable to an "arraignment" or "preliminary hearing" here in the US and this is where Micheli finds sufficient evidence to bind the defendants over for trial) was concluded on October 28, 2008, but the actual trial (With Massei) was started on Jan 16, 2009. Which means, HarryRag had started his campaign long before the first real trial under Massei and long before any real evidence and any defense was started.

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DNA and bedding

Dan O. said:
I would be surprised I'd they didn't find human DNA on any bedding that wasn't freshly washed. Did they take substrate control samples of the bedding itself outside of the blood stains or was the forensics work done Italian style.
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Good point. Bedding is a known source of DNA. I don't have a citation handy, however.
 
Chris_Halkides said:
Good point. Bedding is a known source of DNA. I don't have a citation handy, however.
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Not according to Patrizia Stefanoni. She extracted and quantified 7 samples from the bedding (and 4 more from the sofa, and 3 from the shower), but she produced egrams for exactly none of them.
 
Grinder said:
To be fair, the defense using the family had a bit of a 'road show' doing national TV shows and their surrogates on crime shows like Nancy Grace. Bremner was out talking railroad job from hell etc.

Both sides made this a new media trial.

I find it difficult to blame the family for hiring Maresca and taking his advice. I wonder if there is any of the family members that have doubt.
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The only poll I have seen mentioned is an Italian one that puts the split 28/72 innocence guilt. A simple statistical calculation shows at that rate there is a 19.3% chance that 5 people independently believe in guilt.
If the general population of people who had researched intently were split 50/50, that rate becomes 3.1%.
The conclusion would be, were one to employ this arbitrary figure, that they have almost certainly all put their names to prosecuting this current trial without engaging in independent research, which is curious because they are all claiming to be seeking the truth.
Interestingly, an easy experiment would be to test this with a range of people with no knowledge of the evidence in this case, and give them a week with a broadband connection to make a call on innocence or guilt.
The results would surprise one side or other.
 
mixed DNA from bedding

"Trace DNA is often detected on handled items and worn clothing examined in forensic laboratories. In this study, the potential transfer of trace DNA to bedding by normal contact, when an individual sleeps in a bed, is examined. Volunteers slept one night on a new, lower bed sheet in their own bed and one night in a bed foreign to them. Samples from the sheets were collected and analysed by DNA profiling. The results indicate that the DNA profile of an individual can be obtained from bedding after one night of sleeping in a bed. The DNA profile of the owner of the bed could also be detected in the foreign bed experiments. Since mixed DNA profiles can be obtained from trace DNA on bedding, caution should be exercised when drawing conclusions from DNA profiling results obtained from such samples. This transfer may have important repercussions in sexual assault investigations." abstract. It would be nice to see the egrams in question.
 
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