Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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No, I found nothing strange in what De Felice said (he is a parson, not "they"). Also because, he did not say exactly that. I recall him saying somethign slightly different, as I already explained on this forum.
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You are simply twisting things by using semantics as an arguing point.

Semantics aside, the reality is that Hellmann decided the prosecution did not make their case and that the PLE immediately went out and arrested Lumumba without any investigation of any kind, on Amanda's word only.

It's interesting what you think is strange and what you don't.

I thought Amanda acted strange right after the murder also, but eventually I realized that the prosecution's strangeness far out weighed Amanda's to the point where they ignored and twisted evidence in order to prove their case and save face.

I mean come on, deciding that someone is guilty of murder because they ordered pizza and then twisting everything to fit that theory is why I now believe she and Raffaele are innocent,

d

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One was picked because he could speak English. Their performance has been disappointing but I'm sure some of it is because of the byzantine legal system in Italy.

I believe all of their lawyers were chosen because they could speak English. As we have seen, the US Embassy in Rome was less than useless; it stands to reason they could not have cared less about getting the family the appropriate attorneys.

Why do you keep repeating that these discussion boards won't influence the courts' decisions? We have all admitted that at most some small issue discovered here would be used, but even that is remote.

<snip>It's not because of byzantine reasons: no rational person would chose Dalla Vedova as a defence attorney in a murder case.
The only good reason for chosing Dalla Vedova would be political, because he has a brother, Benedetto Dalla Vedova, who is a prominent member of parliament, and because Carlo Dalla Vedova is known at American corporations in Rome and he is a friend at the US embassy.
Lawyers involved in this case happen to bear obviously "political" profiles (Ghirga, Bongiorno, Dalla Vedova). Some have strong local ties of other kinds (Maori).

ILE and ISC have understood from the beginning that this case is in the international public eye. They all benefit from the ongoing employment it provides them, as well as the publicity. It pleases them no end to be making headlines as often as possible. There are no losers (except Meredith, Amanda, Raffaele and their families).

<snip>The only lawyer fit for a murder case level is Bongiorno. But Bongiorno always knew she would lose in the end.<snip>

Bongiorno is not going to lose in the end. If there is a guilty verdict, some people are going to have to come to grips with the FACT that the United States will never extradite Amanda to Italy.
 
As usual, I don't understand what you are talking about, where are you drifting with your inference.

In my experience, we usually understand each other pretty well.

The judge has a right to decide whether to investigate something or not, based on the procedure code. I hope that's clear, and undisputed.

Did a judge decide whether or not the following items would be tested? If yes, can you provide documentation? If no, can you explain why judges decide whether to investigate some items and not others?

The following were extracted on November 6, and I believe amplified and analyzed that same day:

Blood, Bathmat
Blood, Bathmat.
Blood, Bathmat.
Blood, Bathroom Lightswitch
(Blood) Faucet
Toilet Paper (Rudy)
Y, Toilet Paper (Rudy)
Toilet Paper (Rudy).
Y, Toilet Paper (Rudy)
Feces (Missing)
Meredith (Water glass) (LCN)
Downstairs. Lightswitch. (Missing)
Downstairs. Lightswitch. (Missing)
Lumumba Ref (Y=201)
Lumumba? (690)
Raf Reference (Y=202)
Y, Raf Reference (691)
Amanda Reference

<snip>

And this is all what matters about the point of the alleged semen stain.

The crux of the six-year debate is not whether various personnel had the legal right to make certain decisions, it is whether their decisions were moral, logical and rational. (Although they broke some laws, too.)
 
Looking at my list above, I see that I answered my own question from before: Stefanoni broke the law by conducting these tests, since she obviously was aware that there were arrested suspects at the time of testing, since she was testing their reference samples.

Silly me. I was ready to give Stefanoni a pass on this illegal behavior and blame it one Mignini, but now I see the error of my ways.

Has this illegal testing ever been brought up in the courtroom?
 
Billyryan posted a photo of an attractive man in a black jacket.

The man in the photo looks pretty fit. I looked closely at the image and see a lean torso and broad shoulders. I bet this guy could stand on the top horizontal bar of the window below Filomena's, reach through her broken windowpane to unlatch and open her window inward, plant his hands palms-down on her window sill, and hoist his body up and through Filomena's window. The man looks to be in his 30's.

Machiavelli, you're Italian. How old do you think he is? I want to know to compare him in age to Rudy, who was about 21 in 2007, and was probably even more trim and fit than this "older" man. As a semi-pro basketball player, Rudy had spring in his movements and arm and shoulder strength to raise himself up.
 
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Bongiorno is not going to lose in the end. If there is a guilty verdict, some people are going to have to come to grips with the FACT that the United States will never extradite Amanda to Italy.
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I totally agree with you about that highlighted part, and that is because what will be almost impossible for Italy to overcome is the "double jeopardy" part of our constitution.

Once Italy decided that Amanda was "Not Guilty" and let her leave, extraditing her back to Italy would involve ignoring that part of our constitution, which will not happen.

d

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Billyryan posted a photo of an attractive man in a dark-blue jacket.

The man in the photo looks pretty fit. I looked closely at the image and see a lean torso and broad shoulders. I bet this guy could stand on the top horizontal bar of the window below Filomena's, reach through her broken windowpane to unlatch and open her window inward, plant his hands palms-down on her window sill, and hoist his body up and through Filomena's window.

Rudy, who was about 21 in 2007, was probably even more trim and fit than this man. As a semi-pro basketball player, Rudy had spring in his movements and arm and shoulder strength to raise himself up.

That is not Rudy!
 
The Supreme Court never decided Mignini broke the law. It's a delusional assumption. If you are still by these FoA "myths", at this learning level, no wonder you will remain were you are.

Hummm funny that they failed to allow Migninis interrogations into the trial then. Sure we can forget the fact that Massei failed to do his job and so he also broke the law by allowing Mignini to sneak the illegal interrogations in anyway. And sure Mignini is not in jail or even charged for any crime related to his matter of illegal interrogations even though he is directly responsible for violating the rights of 3 different persons on Nov 5/6 2007. First RS by failing to provide a lawyer. 2nd AK by failing to provide a lawyer and an interrupter. 3rd by certainly failing to provide arrested Dumba Lumumba with a lawyer. I use the sarcastic name because this slime ball changed his story after pressure from police and Mignini. They starved him into submission by keeping his bar closed for no reason at all ...except to force him to change his story about police abuse. The fact that no crimes have been charged yet is meaningless. Mignini broke the law...and he further continued to break it by keeping AK and RS in solitary with no access to lawyers until the moments before the first hearing in front of his lunch buddy Claudia. Slimy corrupt Italians. But no charges means what? Simple...more slimy corrupt Italians involved covering for the first slimy corrupt Italians.

Honest first world countries, unlike Italy would have examined how protections built into Italian laws were so easily violated and more so why they remain unpunished or corrected for the future...in fact in Italy all the violators seem to have been promoted. Which is perfectly logical...if you happen to be Italian...clowns.
 
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I totally agree with you about that highlighted part, and that is because what will be almost impossible for Italy to overcome is the "double jeopardy" part of our constitution.

Once Italy decided that Amanda was "Not Guilty" and let her leave, extraditing her back to Italy would involve ignoring that part of our constitution, which will not happen.

d

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Possibly, but I think it's more that they don't have a case. I'm not sure your US constitutional rights apply when you're in another country. Amanda already had her Miranda rights violated, and no US representative reacted to that.
 
I believe all of their lawyers were chosen because they could speak English. As we have seen, the US Embassy in Rome was less than useless; it stands to reason they could not have cared less about getting the family the appropriate attorneys.





ILE and ISC have understood from the beginning that this case is in the international public eye. They all benefit from the ongoing employment it provides them, as well as the publicity. It pleases them no end to be making headlines as often as possible. There are no losers (except Meredith, Amanda, Raffaele and their families).



Bongiorno is not going to lose in the end. If there is a guilty verdict, some people are going to have to come to grips with the FACT that the United States will never extradite Amanda to Italy.


This is wrong. Amanda will certainly be extradited to Italy.

But first Italy will have to come here to present a convincing case in front of an American judge who will be hearing something probably called "the Amanda Knox appeal against extradition to Italy hearing". Then she will finally get to have this case heard in front of a real court that follows laws and not feelings. That requires facts and proof and not wild illogical speculation.

It will be interesting as to how long it will take for this judge to toss the Italian contingent out on its ear? (I guess one day) I wonder if he will laugh or if he will toss the Italians in the slammer in contempt for bringing such complete nonsense into a real court of law. I have no doubt that the judge will then deny the Italians their ridiculous request for extradition. Not because of double jeopardy but because they bring a case which never should have made it past a honest preliminary hearing.

I want to comment on Yummi/Mac points about Hellmann. Yes, he did say that the prosecutor and police did nothing wrong. That is what makes him a lying incompetent corrupt player as well. He tried his best to save some Italian face and money...even though he understood quite well that he was acting as a foolish liar. Are there any honest Italians? Where are they? Where are the protests against the ISC for sending back to trial a 60 year old pedophile? Zanetti was the only correct one...all we know is that MK is dead. Why would that be a illegal statement in Italy Yummi? Is it against the law to tell the truth in Italy? Oh...never mind....dumb question.
 
Possibly, but I think it's more that they don't have a case. I'm not sure your US constitutional rights apply when you're in another country. Amanda already had her Miranda rights violated, and no US representative reacted to that.

I am sure a person in the U.S. may challenge an extradition request. There are many grounds to do so if Italy were to seek extradition. Psychological abuse (or torture) in police interrogation. Police assault on the suspect in police interrogation. Police destruction of evidence. Blatant police failure to collect and preserve exculpatory evidence. Mishandling of physical evidence and scientifically-invalid DNA analysis. Failure to provide all DNA testing data records. Double jeopardy.

Italy is going to get one hell of a blackeye in the U.S. media. Maybe Donald Trump will renew his call for a boycott of Italy. I'd like to see the diplomatic cables the Italian Embassy and Italian Consulates in various U.S. cities will send back to the Italian Foreign Ministry about the damage an ill-thought-out extradition issue is going to do to Italian political, commercial, tourism, and cultural interests in the U.S. It could get so bad that even Dennis Rodman won't travel there! :p
 
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I am sure a person in the U.S. may challenge an extradition request. There are many grounds to do so if Italy were to seek extradition. Psychological abuse (or torture) in police interrogation. Police assault on the suspect in police interrogation. Police destruction of evidence. Blatant police failure to collect and preserve exculpatory evidence. Mishandling of physical evidence and scientifically-invalid DNA analysis. Failure to provide all DNA testing data records. Double jeopardy.

Italy is going to get one hell of a blackeye in the U.S. media. Maybe Donald Trump will renew his call for a boycott of Italy. I'd like to see the diplomatic cables the Italian Embassy and Italian Consulates in various U.S. cities send back to the Italian Foreign Ministry about the damage this case is going to do to Italian political, commercial, tourism, and cultural interests in the U.S. It could get so bad that even Dennis Rodman won't travel there! :p
Canada will not extradite to a US State which has the death penalty, unless it gets a guarantee that it will not be sought. The perp could be Satan(ic theory of Mignini's) himself, but Canada won't do it....

After all the legal stuff has been dealt with, at the end of the day it's a political decision.
 
Possibly, but I think it's more that they don't have a case. I'm not sure your US constitutional rights apply when you're in another country. Amanda already had her Miranda rights violated, and no US representative reacted to that.
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We'll have to agree to disagree. Amanda is not an Italian citizen so her extradition would depend on US laws, not Italy's, but I could be wrong.
 
This is wrong. Amanda will certainly be extradited to Italy.

But first Italy will have to come here to present a convincing case in front of an American judge who will be hearing something probably called "the Amanda Knox appeal against extradition to Italy hearing". Then she will finally get to have this case heard in front of a real court that follows laws and not feelings. That requires facts and proof and not wild illogical speculation.

It will be interesting as to how long it will take for this judge to toss the Italian contingent out on its ear? (I guess one day) I wonder if he will laugh or if he will toss the Italians in the slammer in contempt for bringing such complete nonsense into a real court of law. I have no doubt that the judge will then deny the Italians their ridiculous request for extradition. Not because of double jeopardy but because they bring a case which never should have made it past a honest preliminary hearing.

I want to comment on Yummi/Mac points about Hellmann. Yes, he did say that the prosecutor and police did nothing wrong. That is what makes him a lying incompetent corrupt player as well. He tried his best to save some Italian face and money...even though he understood quite well that he was acting as a foolish liar. Are there any honest Italians? Where are they? Where are the protests against the ISC for sending back to trial a 60 year old pedophile? Zanetti was the only correct one...all we know is that MK is dead. Why would that be a illegal statement in Italy Yummi? Is it against the law to tell the truth in Italy? Oh...never mind....dumb question.

This is not actually true. The standard for extradition is quite low. If there's an extradition treaty, the court will simply look at whether the convicted person is extraditable. If they make that finding, it's up to the Secretary of State to decide to extradite the person. Of course, Italy first has to request the extradition, and it's not a guarantee that they will. I can think of several reasons not do so.

The standard for extradition is pretty low:

"These requirements are whether a valid treaty exists, whether the crime is one covered by the treaty, whether there is reason to believe that the accused is the person sought, and there is probable cause to believe the accused committed the crime. See 18 U.S.C. § 3184 (1994)."

The only issue would be the element of probable cause, which again is a pretty low standard as well.

Also:

Efforts to accommodate a treaty partner requesting extradition, and to do so in an expeditious fashion, can lead to conflicts between the requested state's extradition procedures and its general criminal laws and constitutional provisions, which may require higher levels of proof or greater attention to individual rights than are conducive to rapid extradition processes. In the United States well-developed criminal jurisprudence59 requires that an individual normally be accorded such minimal procedures as a demonstration of probable cause before incarceration, the opportunity for bail during the pendency of the proceedings, and a speedy judicial resolution of the charges. These requirements may complicate the extradition process, but foreign policy considerations make expedition and simplicity important. Unfortunately, it may be the individual's rights that are sacrificed to political expediency.

JUSTICE DENIED? THE ADJUDICATION OF EXTRADITION APPLICATIONS
Ann Powers Texas International Law Journal, 37 Tex. Int'l L.J. 277
 
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EXTRADITION

FROM: http://internationalextraditionblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/italy.pdf

TITLE: "BILATERAL EXTRADITION TREATIES
"ITALY

"Article 6 provides that extradition shall be denied when the
person sought has been in jeopardy in the requested State for the same offense... "

"ARTICLE VI

"Non Bis in Idem

"Extradition shall not be granted when the person sought has been convicted, acquitted or pardoned, or has served the sentence imposed, by the Requested Party for the same acts for which extradition is requested."

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I read the word "jeopardy" above (as used in Article 6) as referring to the "double jeopardy" fifth amendment clause of the constitution:

FROM: http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/fifth_amendment

"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

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Seems pretty clear to me, but I could still be wrong,

d

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Why would they let her leave Italy if she wasn't acquitted?

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"Extradition shall not be granted when the person sought has been convicted, acquitted or pardoned, or has served the sentence imposed, by the Requested Party for the same acts for which extradition is requested."
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I believe a good lawyer could make a strong case that she was acquitted, otherwise why did they let her out of jail and then allow her to leave Italy if she really wasn't acquitted?

Just my opinion,

d

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Has anybody been able to refute the argument that it is impossible (or very improbable) for the gastric contents to leave the stomach more than about 4 hours after the meal?

I think they have cited an expert's report in an unrelated case that stomach contents "were insufficiently precise to be useful" in that particular case, and misrepresented that to mean that stomach contents are unreliable in all cases.
 
John Sr.

Wait, did you guys see this:

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http://www.dougbremner.com/?_escaped_fragment_=?p=1

The brother of Meredith Kercher, John Kercher Jr., has been writing under the pseudonym of harryrag, where he has conducted an ongoing campaign over the last six years dedicated to the conviction of Amanda Knox for a murder which she did not commit
Sorry if this was already posted, but can it be true?

Also, I really hope the predictions of not guilty verdict will be coming true, but I'm scared.


Hi Snook1,
Although I'm more than a few days behind on the debate,
I noticed this interesting bit of info from Doug Bremner's website that you linked above:
"John Kercher, Sr., also lodged a complaint against my sister with the Washington State Bar,
apparently for the crime of representing someone he, mistakenly, thinks is guilty and does not deserve representation."




Meredith Kercher's Dad is lodging complaints here in the U.S.A.?
Interesting...
 
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