Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Diocletus]

In this regard, what has been previously observed on the subject is called to mind; with specific reference to the stains found on the pillowcase, particular mention of which was made by Sollecito’s defence *team+ during the trial and in the related illustrative memorandum, the following should be noted: even if a genetic investigation established the spermatic nature of these stains, such an investigation, as a rule, would not allow these stains to be dated and, in particular, it would not be possible to establish that they had been deposited on the night on which Meredith was killed. It having furthermore been established that Meredith had an active sexual life and at times had intercourse in her own room (cf. on this point the statements of her boyfriend Giacomo Silenzi) such an investigation, besides not being of a strictly necessary nature due to the impossibility of dating [i.e. establishing the date] (cf. what was elucidated on this aspect by the genetic experts), might also yield an entirely irrelevant outcome even for establishing the spermatic nature of those very stains and seems to be, therefore, a purely explorative activity, [which] is not permitted at this stage of the proceedings because it is lacking in the requirement for absolute necessity which was, on the contrary, requested.

The stains can't be dated? Really? On how many different occasions do they expect Rudy to have ejaculated in Kercher's room and smeared his semen into her blood stain? Weird and stupid.

 

[Machiavelli]

That's not the point. It is not the job of investigators to pick and choose what they test; they are required to test everything. It is not their job to determine what is or is not evidence until after it has been tested. If they had the attitude that collecting and/or testing particular artifacts "would not change anything," then all their training, methods and philosophy would be for naught.

In fact it's a judge's job. The judges decided not to test the alleged emen stain.

 

[Diocletus]

Has anybody been able to refute the argument that it is impossible (or very improbable) for the gastric contents to leave the stomach more than about 4 hours after the meal?

Yes: Massei did. If you mean someone who doesn't have their head in their ass, then the answer is "no."

 

[Diocletus]

In fact it's a judge's job. The judges decided not to test the alleged emen stain.

Are these the same judges that decided that statutory rape is legal if motivated by "love"?

 

[Mary_H]

In fact it's a judge's job. The judges decided not to test the alleged emen stain.

That must be why "the file" contains 10,000 pages. Do you happen to have access to the page that gives judicial permission to test the cigarette butt? Or the OJ glass? How much difference was that one expected to make, when anybody could have drunk the OJ?

How about the signed approvals for putting down the evidence numbers around the crime scene, or do the investigators get to decide on that all by themselves? Then they give the pictures to the judge and he says, "All right, you may test #1, #2 and #5-28, but you may not test #3 or #4, nor #29-35."

 

[AmyStrange]

Yes: Massei did. If you mean someone who doesn't have their head in their ass, then the answer is "no."

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Don't you mean duodenum?

d

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[LondonJohn]

Has anybody been able to refute the argument that it is impossible (or very improbable) for the gastric contents to leave the stomach more than about 4 hours after the meal?

Nope.

Laughably, one of the more common pro-guilt responses to this claim is along the lines of: "Well, the centre of the bell-curve for the start of stomach emptying is 90 minutes after eating, so according to the groupies' (i.e. pro-acquittal) arguments Meredith died at 8pm. Hur Hur Hur."

Of course, this is a risibly illogical "argument".

It may help some of the pro-guilt commentators to examine the following scenario as a comparator: suppose that we are discussing an adult male European, and we know that he is a) healthy and devoid of any hormonal defects or imbalances, and b) at least 6ft 5 tall ¹ .

We can say with high confidence - and with reference to known distributions of adult male European height - that it's almost certain that the man is somewhere between 6ft 5 and 7ft tall ²
We can also say with high confidence that it is, to all intents, impossible that the man is 8ft 6 tall (or taller) ³
A pro-guilt commentator might "argue" that since the average height for an adult male European is 5ft 10, this means that the man "must" be 5ft 10 tall if one is going by the statistical evidence..... <sup>4


1</sup> This is equivalent to the knowledge that Meredith was still alive at 9.00pm

² This is equivalent to the assertion that Meredith almost certainly died between 9.00pm and 10.00pm

³ This is equivalent to the assertion that it's to all intents impossible that Meredith died at 11.30pm (or later).

⁴ This is equivalent to suggesting that Meredith "must" have died by 8pm, if one is going by the statistical evidence.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

One was picked because he could speak English. Their performance has been disappointing but I'm sure some of it is because of the byzantine legal system in Italy.

Oh okay I didn’t know that language was one of the reasons for their selection. However, they are part of as you describe “the byzantine Italian legal system”, indeed their lively hood depends on that very system as does Maresca.

The defence seems to depend largely on Giulia Bongiorno who seems to be head and shoulders above Amanda’s lawyers, hence me question about their retention.

Why do you keep repeating that these discussion boards won't influence the courts' decisions? We have all admitted that at most some small issue discovered here would be used, but even that is remote.

I repeat merely because I continually read posts here about how PGP posters elsewhere have said this and that or posted on media articles (in English) and that somehow are influencing an Italian court case.

These discussion sites include what maybe 100 or so regular posters, maybe 150. The Italian Supreme Court ignored pressure from its own government and the American government in the rendition case that had far wider implications, so I doubt that 150 people dotted around the world will or have had any impact whatsoever on the Italian judicial process in the murder of a foreign student.

I just think Amanda's defence team should have been replaced for the appeal.

 

[AmyStrange]

Logic? We don't need no steenkin' logic in Italy...

That must be why "the file" contains 10,000 pages. Do you happen to have access to the page that gives judicial permission to test the cigarette butt? Or the OJ glass? How much difference was that one expected to make, when anybody could have drunk the OJ?

How about the signed approvals for putting down the evidence numbers around the crime scene, or do the investigators get to decide on that all by themselves? Then they give the pictures to the judge and he says, "All right, you may test #1, #2 and #5-28, but you may not test #3 or #4, nor #29-35."

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Mary, you just have to stop being logical. Logic just doesn't work very well in Italy, at least not most of the time in this specific case any way,

d

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[Grinder]

That must be why "the file" contains 10,000 pages. Do you happen to have access to the page that gives judicial permission to test the cigarette butt? Or the OJ glass? How much difference was that one expected to make, when anybody could have drunk the OJ?

How about the signed approvals for putting down the evidence numbers around the crime scene, or do the investigators get to decide on that all by themselves? Then they give the pictures to the judge and he says, "All right, you may test #1, #2 and #5-28, but you may not test #3 or #4, nor #29-35."

I think he is saying that at a certain point the investigators turn it over to one of the judges (GIP or GUP) and from that point the judges can't order exploratory work.

I think it makes sense that the defense can't just keep asking for more but I certainly don't get why they would deny this request.

Why the fingernails but not the semen?

 

[MDDVS]

Nope.

Laughably, one of the more common pro-guilt responses to this claim is along the lines of: "Well, the centre of the bell-curve for the start of stomach emptying is 90 minutes after eating, so according to the groupies' (i.e. pro-acquittal) arguments Meredith died at 8pm. Hur Hur Hur."

Of course, this is a risibly illogical "argument".

It may help some of the pro-guilt commentators to examine the following scenario as a comparator: suppose that we are discussing an adult male European, and we know that he is a) healthy and devoid of any hormonal defects or imbalances, and b) at least 6ft 5 tall ¹ .

We can say with high confidence - and with reference to known distributions of adult male European height - that it's almost certain that the man is somewhere between 6ft 5 and 7ft tall ²
We can also say with high confidence that it is, to all intents, impossible that the man is 8ft 6 tall (or taller) ³
A pro-guilt commentator might "argue" that since the average height for an adult male European is 5ft 10, this means that the man "must" be 5ft 10 tall if one is going by the statistical evidence..... <sup>4


1</sup> This is equivalent to the knowledge that Meredith was still alive at 9.00pm

² This is equivalent to the assertion that Meredith almost certainly died between 9.00pm and 10.00pm

³ This is equivalent to the assertion that it's to all intents impossible that Meredith died at 11.30pm (or later).

⁴ This is equivalent to suggesting that Meredith "must" have died by 8pm, if one is going by the statistical evidence.

Thanks, I'm aware of the mainstream view on this subject. I'd just like to know if pro-guilt people have any kind of rational response to this because I don't understand how you can otherwise keep arguing for guilt in view of this fact (i.e. full stomach at time of death). If they can't refute this single point (and yes, I'm aware there are many other pieces of evidence independently pointing to the same conclusion).

But yes, it was fun to read your post. People that have no idea of what a distribution is should really abstain from commenting on this issue.

 

[Grinder]

I repeat merely because I continually read posts here about how PGP posters elsewhere have said this and that or posted on media articles (in English) and that somehow are influencing an Italian court case.

These discussion sites include what maybe 100 or so regular posters, maybe 150. The Italian Supreme Court ignored pressure from its own government and the American government in the rendition case that had far wider implications, so I doubt that 150 people dotted around the world will or have had any impact whatsoever on the Italian judicial process in the murder of a foreign student.

I just think Amanda's defence team should have been replaced for the appeal.

I think they should have added a premier criminal lawyer after about a week.

I think people are warring with other commenters separate from the actual trial. People here and there are having their side battles and feel at most that some public opinion may be influenced.

The PGP side seems to believe they have more influence with both the courts and the media. The PIP side relies more on the broadest definition of the defense for both.

 

[Machiavelli]

One was picked because he could speak English. Their performance has been disappointing but I'm sure some of it is because of the byzantine legal system in Italy.

Why do you keep repeating that these discussion boards won't influence the courts' decisions? We have all admitted that at most some small issue discovered here would be used, but even that is remote.

If you look at Dalla Vedova's lawfirma internet page, you will see that they do not offer any criminal attorney service/counsel.
That lawfirma only offers services of corporate/finance/banking/labour law litigation.
No work in the criminal branch - despite they deploy a force of 9 litigators.

It's not because of byzantine reasons: no rational person would chose Dalla Vedova as a defence attorney in a murder case.
The only good reason for chosing Dalla Vedova would be political, because he has a brother, Benedetto Dalla Vedova, who is a prominent member of parliament, and because Carlo Dalla Vedova is known at American corporations in Rome and he is a friend at the US embassy.
Lawyers involved in this case happen to bear obviously "political" profiles (Ghirga, Bongiorno, Dalla Vedova). Some have strong local ties of other kinds (Maori).

Three of them are obviously incompetent. Dalla Vedova is completely untrained and a wandering train-wreck. Ghirga and Maori are competent in criminal law but all what they can do is in practice is be aware the case is desperate, an anyway they are unfit to cases of this level, don't have capabilities to respond. The only lawyer fit for a murder case level is Bongiorno. But Bongiorno always knew she would lose in the end.

On the other hand, Rudy's lawyers, Gentile and Biscotti, are a trained couple specialized in murder cases. Costa, Ghirga's associate, also was not that bad. But they broke up at the beginning when Costa clashed against the Knoxes strategy.

 

[Machiavelli]

That must be why "the file" contains 10,000 pages. Do you happen to have access to the page that gives judicial permission to test the cigarette butt? Or the OJ glass? How much difference was that one expected to make, when anybody could have drunk the OJ?

How about the signed approvals for putting down the evidence numbers around the crime scene, or do the investigators get to decide on that all by themselves? Then they give the pictures to the judge and he says, "All right, you may test #1, #2 and #5-28, but you may not test #3 or #4, nor #29-35."

As usual, I don't understand what you are talking about, where are you drifting with your inference.

The judge has a right to decide whether to investigate something or not, based on the procedure code. I hope that's clear, and undisputed.
And this is all what matters about the point of the alleged semen stain.

 

[Rolfe]

Thanks, I'm aware of the mainstream view on this subject. I'd just like to know if pro-guilt people have any kind of rational response to this because I don't understand how you can otherwise keep arguing for guilt in view of this fact (i.e. full stomach at time of death). If they can't refute this single point (and yes, I'm aware there are many other pieces of evidence independently pointing to the same conclusion).

But yes, it was fun to read your post. People that have no idea of what a distribution is should really abstain from commenting on this issue.

It seems they just throw a lot of mud and hope some sticks. There are a lot of papers cautioning against reliance on digestive tract contents to estimate time of death, because it is often unreliable for various reasons. This is an unusual case with unusual features that make it reliable. Judges aren't scientists and tend to listen to these arguments and think, oh it can't be reliable then.

Also, they conflate the time for the stomach to begin emptying with the time for the stomach to have emptied completely. Obviously it would be perfectly possible that Meredith might have had some of that meal still in her stomach much later in the evening. Complete stomach emptying takes time. Say that often enough and judges seem to get confused and forget we're talking about ALL her meal still being in her stomach - not just SOME.

Rolfe.

 

[christianahannah]

Looking at my list above, I see that I answered my own question from before: Stefanoni broke the law by conducting these tests, since she obviously was aware that there were arrested suspects at the time of testing, since she was testing their reference samples.

Silly me. I was ready to give Stefanoni a pass on this illegal behavior and blame it one Mignini, but now I see the error of my ways.

I may be wrong but somehow I don't think Stefanoni broke the law concerning the dates of testing. This information of when the testing was done has been known for a time and I would imagine known to Amanda's and Raffaele's attorneys. If a law was broken don't you think there would have been some legal document written by their attorneys requesting that particular evidence be rejected?

 

[Diocletus]

I may be wrong but somehow I don't think Stefanoni broke the law concerning the dates of testing. This information of when the testing was done has been known for a time and I would imagine known to Amanda's and Raffaele's attorneys. If a law was broken don't you think there would have been some legal document written by their attorneys requesting that particular evidence be rejected?

Nope. The evidence incriminates Guede and not Knox/Sollecito. Although a few if the test results are, curiously, missing. Why?

 

[Strozzi]

I think he is saying that at a certain point the investigators turn it over to one of the judges (GIP or GUP) and from that point the judges can't order exploratory work.

I think it makes sense that the defense can't just keep asking for more but I certainly don't get why they would deny this request.

Why the fingernails but not the semen?

I believe that the reason the semen is not known to have been tested is one of the following:

1) The victim's boyfriend has told authorities that the pillow was used in intimate activity between two consenting adults, and the prosecution and the court want to shield the victim's reputation from public discussion or scrutiny.
2) it was tested but proved to be of no probative value and the results are only known to the prosecution, or to the prosecution and defense but not to the public.
3) the prosecution is resisting testing the stain because they initially overlooked it, it was first recognized and pointed out by the defense, and the prosecution wants to conceal or downplay the fact that they did not find it themselves.
4) the prosecution is fighting this as they know that identifying another male present at or around the time of the crime will help Sollecito's defense and compound the prosecution.

 

[Strozzi]

Duplicate.

 

[christianahannah]

Nope. The evidence incriminates Guede and not Knox/Sollecito. Although a few if the test results are, curiously, missing. Why?

Except the blood on the faucet.

As for the test results missing, I don't think they are. What has been made public by documents is a small portion of what is in the case file as the recent availability of trial transcripts has shown (and as a result I now believe in the 10,000+ pages as previously referred to in various writings).