L.Y.S. said:
Any deal with Russia is losing. It is nothing but trap, where energy source is used as a carrot and a threat and a stick.
This is just utterly stupid. So you'd rather not deal with the elephant in the room. You'd rather make Ukrainians unemployed and poor at the expense of reason, and for what? To spite Russia and for some cheap national pride? Very dumb reason if you ask me. Go cry about your historical grievances with someone who cares. This is not an issue of emotion, but an issue of pragmatism.
You'd need first to prove that your outcome is what would happen, which I argue is not so. Yes, it is about pragmatism and it tells us that any deal with Russia is bad one. (Too many strings attached, too much of control given back to Russia)
Either you learn from history or not, your choice and I think Ukraine's people learned their lessons already.
Oh and BTW: I am from country which only had to deal with Russia for about 40 years or so and it was enough.
Your argument is the equivalent of arguing that the EU draw up a trade deal with Mexico and not deal with the trade deals that they've forged with America. It'd be stupid and financially suicidal. Notice that the trade deals recently done between the EU and Canada take into account Canada's special trade relationship with the US, while the EU/Ukraine deal does nothing of the sort? Hmmm, I wonder why they're doing this, it surely isn't to spite Russia is it? I'm sure they have a plan to integrate Ukraine's cheap labor force into the EU. They don't already have ample cheap industrial labor from Turkey. Nah, I'm sure it's done in all good faith.
You take into account what is good and what is bad and eliminate bad. Russia is bad. Their influence is unhealthy as they want their empire back, as they want to control again and force others to do their biding. Russia wants to force roll back of history and means and goals are not compatible with EU or Ukraine.
So you propose your own fail. None of your assertions is backed up. There is no evidence of any "supposed economical damage" nor threat of it by entering EU deal. Also there is no evidence that Russian's "offer" is of any benefit.
How can you make this stupid argument? Russia composes some 50% or greater of Ukraine's economy and would remain that way even in the event of a Ukraine-EU deal. It would devastate their economy. Millions of Ukrainians would be unemployed. Energy and transportation costs would dramatically increase. It would be nightmarish for decades. Again, I beg that you understand basic economics. Can Europe offer the same deals? I doubt.
And you know why? Because they forced themselves in multiple times and multiple ways and were never welcomed nor invited. One of first was forced resettlement and depositing Russians and last time was deal with oil.
And another load of assertions. I guess those funds in EU for development don't exist, that Ukraine doesn't know where they are going. As if that happened with any other country from former east block.
There are many counterexamples to show that what you argue is simply tiny possibility and more then likely wouldn't happen.
Frankly, it looks more like Russia threatened Ukraine to force them to back off of the EU deal. (Simply cut of Ukraine again as they did already several times)
Not what happened at all, but I understand that a little Czech nationalist has an axe to grind with the big bad Russians. Again, Russia depends on Ukrainian goods and services. Replacing these with EU goods and services would disrupt the Russia market. Out of necessity they had to limit the situation. EU also made a caveat that they basically had to end their special relationship with Russia. Ukrainian officials made it painfully simple that they would not support a trade deal that dissolved it's trade relationship with Russia. The EU refused the conditions behind their agreement, so the government refused to proceed with the deal. Western Ukrainian idiots are rioting for nothing but their own unemployment. Again, why can't a trilateral deal be struck up?
Ah, Ad Hominem, how pathetic. Your arguments are even weaker. BTW: You have managed to validate mine arguments. Russia wants control, wants to have it on their own terms, so the abuse what is left to force others.
As for representatives, you have to wonder why they made sudden 180° turn around and simplest explanation is that Russians forced them.
BTW: Do you know who is left when you eliminate western Ukraine's? Russians. Those are the only ones to benefit from Russian deals.
ETA: Those who don't learn from history are bound to repeat it and with Russia that history says keep as far away from them as possible. No good comes from there.
Because the EU has a good track record with Romania and Balkan nations? Last time I checked their economies were damaged. Not that they won't recover, but again, these economies will take decades to restructure adequately. Romania's economy sucks. Ukraine's will too.
Balkan was already damaged beyond anything by constant civil wars, struggles and idiocies. It began with Milosevic and won't likely end yet for decades, because of all that nationalism. Very bad example for your position.
Did the EU not take into account Canada's relationship with the U.S. when crafting a special deal for Canada? Did they have several provisions and caveats which would displace millions of Canadian workers? Say what you will, but this bill would kill jobs. Dumb if I've ever heard it. Several EU prominents have noted that integrating the Ukraine would just be more dead weight on the EU.
Why can't the EU craft a deal for the Ukraine which recognizes it's special relationship with Russia?
Because it would be utterly stupid and dumb idea? You never let Russia dictate.
Anyway, keep ignoring history and current events, it won't make your position anymore reasonable, right or tenable. We have seen enough from events in Russia itself including economical and political to know that old guard is back and wants its power back.
