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Are the crucifixion nails of Jesus in Europe?

pakeha said:
Worse yet, Craig B.
The Socrates Scholasticus claim was reported by...the BBC! :eek:
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"Here is the World News. Socrates Scholasticus has reported within the last one and a half millennia that St Helena has thrown a nail into the Adriatic Sea ... Over to our reporters for latest reactions from world leaders ... "
 
pakeha said:
Oh ye of little faith!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/dna/place-lancashire/plain/A11953280
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Who wrote that nonsensical piece?
Some say that the story was invented by bishops of Jerusalem some four centuries later, though in the last 20 years scholars have begun to give rather more credence to the authenticity of Helena's discovery.
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Have they, indeed?
On one such occasion, her workmen were preparing to build the the 'Basilica of the Holy Sepulchre' on the hill called Calvary or Golgotha, the site of Christ's death. During the excavation they had to remove three centuries' worth of rubble that had accumulated on the hill, due to the construction of a temple to Venus and Jupiter by Emperor Hadrian in 135.
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Or to put it another way, as the website of the Antiochan Orthdox church in the USA unashamedly does:
After her arrival in Jerusalem, Empress Helen ordered the destruction of the pagan temples and began to reconsecrate the places which had been defiled by the pagans.
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ETA "... Three centuries worth of rubble ... "?? Helena was in Jerusalem c 326 AD, a little less than TWO centuries after Hadrian's building activities in Jerusalem!
 
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Craig B said:
...ETA "... Three centuries worth of rubble ... "?? Helena was in Jerusalem c 326 AD, a little less than TWO centuries after Hadrian's building activities in Jerusalem!
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Since when has an inconvenient fact hindered the creation of a Christian myth?
 
Tsk, tsk.
"while we create Christian myths" has a better ring to it,
"while we misattribute Christian myths" is more truthy-like.

Gregory of Tours created/reported the myth of the storm-calming nail, after all, not the beeb.

Still, now we have multiple attestation about the floating nail.
Ama, Gregory of Tours and the BBC.
 
Craig B said:
...ETA "... Three centuries worth of rubble ... "?? Helena was in Jerusalem c 326 AD, a little less than TWO centuries after Hadrian's building activities in Jerusalem!
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If wiki's correct, that Temple dedicated (logically) to Venus was built by Hadrian
" Hadrian built a large temple to the goddess Venus, which later became the Church of the Holy Sepulchre; "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aelia_Capitolina#Plan_of_the_city

In any case, when did the Jews return to Jerusalem after Hadrian's banishment?
I ask because of the Jew who recommended to Helen the destruction of that temple.
To find the Holy Cross. ;)

"In her quest for the Life-Creating Cross, she questioned several Christians and Jews, but for a long time her search remained unsuccessful. Finally, an elderly Hebrew named Jude told her that the Cross was buried beneath the temple of Venus. St Helen ordered that the pagan temple be demolished, and for the site to be excavated. "
http://oca.org/saints/lives/2013/03...recious-cross-and-the-precious-nails-by-the-e
 
pakeha said:
... In any case, when did the Jews return to Jerusalem after Hadrian's banishment?
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It's a bit mysterious. Here's wiki on Roman anti semitism
After his defeat of Licinius in 323 CE, Constantine showed Christians marked political preference. He repressed Jewish proselytism and forbade Jews from circumcising their slaves.Jews were barred from Jerusalem except on the anniversary of the Second Temple's destruction (Tisha B'Av) and then only after paying a special tax (probably the Fiscus Judaicus) in silver.
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Maybe she spoke to the Jews on Tisha B'Av. Anyway they converted pretty quick, according to the stories.
 
I'm baffled by - amongst other things - Ama's obsession with an 18th century Roman Catholic devotional songbook and the KJV Bible, which isn't used by Catholics. The KJV undoubtedly has literary merit but contrary to what Ama thinks it's notoriously inaccurate as a translation.
 
Craig B said:
pakeha said:
... In any case, when did the Jews return to Jerusalem after Hadrian's banishment?
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It's a bit mysterious. Here's wiki on Roman anti semitism
After his defeat of Licinius in 323 CE, Constantine showed Christians marked political preference. He repressed Jewish proselytism and forbade Jews from circumcising their slaves.Jews were barred from Jerusalem except on the anniversary of the Second Temple's destruction (Tisha B'Av) and then only after paying a special tax (probably the Fiscus Judaicus) in silver.
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Maybe she spoke to the Jews on Tisha B'Av. Anyway they converted pretty quick, according to the stories.
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What choice?
From what your wiki entry says, 4th century Christian persecution of Jews just fell short of feeding them to the lions.
 
I believe every letter or word PC has posted. Just not in the order he did so. Shuffle them around a bit and the truth shines through. Here is an example:

PeaceCrusader said:
It is Saint James the Greater and not the Lesser that went to Lutetia, or Lutetia Parisorum, or Lutece, now known as Paris. The nail found by Saint James floating in the river in Paris is now in Carpentras, France called Clavo Santo or Holy Nail.
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Now for the word fix:

It is not Saint James the Greater and the Lesser that went to Lutetia, or Lutetia Parisorum, or Lutece, now known as Paris.

Now the letter fix:

.The Carpenters song called CloSe to you ain't by James Paris Lee. Fartin' in wind is a no no . Fail van halan in Forth, INRI CV Rl


See, don't that make more sense?
 
Are There Crucifixion Nails of Jesus in Europe

Not the real thing. Likely a relic. Is the apostle Peter really buried under the Vatican when they found Peter's bones in Israel in the 1950's?
 
Craig B said:
A contentious issue!?! There was a doctrine known as "Triclavianism" which held that only three nails were used, Jesus' feet being transfixed by a single nail. Wiki notes that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triclavianism. It is also stated that But it's very improbable that Innocent did any such thing.
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Well he was Innocent... ;)

All these contradictions can be resolved if the events so poorly described by PeaceCrusader all happened in one or more universes other than this one. That ought to keep both the scientists and the religiously disabled happy :D
 
Tom Skylark said:
Not the real thing. Likely a relic. Is the apostle Peter really buried under the Vatican when they found Peter's bones in Israel in the 1950's?
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And in addition bits of him are in St John Lateran, Rome, too.
Reliquaries include the heads of Saints Peter and Paul; the Holy Stairs (Scala Santa), taken from the palace of Pontius Pilate; the Holy Umbilical Cord; and wood from the table used during the Last Supper.
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Yes, that's the Holy Umbilical Cord. The Jesus one!
 
Astreja said:
I wouldn't be so sure about that, Aristeo. For all you know, "Ama" is actually the spirit of Pontius Pilate, whose clay body (unfired clay, i'm assuming, because a porcelain prefect would've been suspicious) dissolved in the Mediterranean. ;)

You see, it was Pontius Pilate in the garden of Gethsemane that night, and Jesus judging him and sentencing him to death. After the CruciFiction, it was easy for Pilate to come back to life and go around scaring people by pretending to be Jesus (who had skipped town with Mary Magdalene to start an unpainted furniture shop and raise a family in Gaza).

Pilate subsequently patched up the holes with a little fresh clay and went back to his day job as prefect, till the series of unfortunate events leading to his unscheduled and terminal swim in the sea.
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You, Astreja, have such a fertile imagination of Jesus, Mary Magdalene, and Pontius Pilate. That is fiction.

This is what the spirit of Ama told us:
Mary Magdalene was a very beautiful woman. She was not a prostitute. She seduced Jesus but Jesus told her what His mission in this world is. She understood what He said and she stopped.

Do you know what happened when Jesus was twelve years old? This is in Luke 2:40-52. FYI, this was the time when the golem Pontius Pilate was created by Jesus. When Pontius Pilate died and was to be buried, the weather was very bad; the earthquake did not stopped; and there was flooding. So they threw his body into the sea but the weather worsened. Then they threw one of the nails used in the crucifixion of Jesus into the sea and the weather calmed down and the earthquake stopped. This nail floated and was found by Saint James in Paris, France. This nail is now in Carpentras, France.
 
PeaceCrusader said:
I got Karpentas from “Awit at Salaysay ng Pasiong Mahal ni Hesukristong Panginoon Natin” (Song and Narration of Holy Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ) or Pasiong Mahal or Pasion, page 203, to wit: “Isa ngang pakong marilag ang nasa bayang Karpentas na minamahal ng lahat kung ipagpiesta’y ang tawag Clavo Santo ang pamagat” (One beautiful nail is at the town of Karpentas that is loved by all when at feast day, it is called Clavo Santo).

On page 204 are the second, third, and fourth nails of Jesus. The second nail is at a church in Milan, Italy which San Carlos placed when he went and visited the place. The third nail of Jesus is at the diadem of Constantine I which his mother, Elena, placed. This nail is at a temple in Rome, Italy. The fourth nail of Jesus was thrown into the Adriatic Sea which did not sink and floated and ended up in Paris, France at the San Dionisio (Saint Dionysius or Saint Denis or Saint Dennis) temple.
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Emperor Constantine I’s mother, Elena, threw the fourth nail into the Adriatic Sea to calm a storm was almost wiped out a town, which floated and ended up in Paris, France at Saint Denis Temple (Pasiong Mahal, page 204). Why did Elena throw one of the nails into the sea? She must have heard how one of the crucifixion nails during the first century AD was thrown into the sea which floated.
 
Alice Shortcake said:
I'm baffled by - amongst other things - Ama's obsession with an 18th century Roman Catholic devotional songbook and the KJV Bible, which isn't used by Catholics. The KJV undoubtedly has literary merit but contrary to what Ama thinks it's notoriously inaccurate as a translation.
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I think we're dealing with "a little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing" syndrome. I'd posit that those may be the books Ama had available and that he/she was able to buffalo the locals with mumbo jumbo based on finding those two tomes or references to those two tomes... maybe through a local missionary or proselytizer? They're quite common in the rural Philippines. The attempts at melding this crap and retrofitting are probably as the result of PeaceCrusader coming back with criticisms writ large by people like the skeptics on this board. Ama had free rein to buffalo everyone in the past and either the prophet or PC is having to jump through historical and intellectual hoops to make that crap fit with actual history.

Also, don't go by the official demographics of the country. The population that doesn't give much of a rat's ptoot about religion always ticks off "Catholic". That's how they were raised, and while many are devout there are many who go to Mass on Good Friday and Easter and Christmas and maybe for a nephew's First Communion, but don't give it much thought. The 90% Catholic figure is probably way off. The surveyors go to a household and the matriarch answers for the seventeen cousins and relatives living there.... "All Catholics". But there are surprisingly large strains of evengelicals, born-again and various other bible thumping fundies in the Philippines.
 
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