Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Ogantai]

He had a natural reason to stop by that evening to see if he could hangout with any of the guys who might be around. No evidence that the burglary was planned before that evening - he may have dropped by to see the guys, found the house dark, and decided on the spur of the moment to break in for any cash and valuables.

This is the part I'm not sure about. If Rudy had visited the guys downstairs previously he almost certainly knew about their marijuana grow-up, either from talking about it directly or by the smell. Depending on how loose-lipped Giacomo and the others were about their weekend plans, he might also know he could expect to find the stash unguarded that weekend. That gives him a specific reason to burgle that particular house at that particular time. Even more so if he intuited that young men with marketable quantities of drugs and no legitimate enterprises to launder the proceeds through often have large amounts of cash around as well.

 

[JREF2010]

This is the part I'm not sure about. If Rudy had visited the guys downstairs previously he almost certainly knew about their marijuana grow-up, either from talking about it directly or by the smell. Depending on how loose-lipped Giacomo and the others were about their weekend plans, he might also know he could expect to find the stash unguarded that weekend. That gives him a specific reason to burgle that particular house at that particular time. Even more so if he intuited that young men with marketable quantities of drugs and no legitimate enterprises to launder the proceeds through often have large amounts of cash around as well.

I don't know, I knew someone for a long time before, one very drunk evening, they showed me and the other socialites, the "extra bedroom" with plants growing to the ceiling , a forest almost. This was a highly illegal activity at the time so its understandable they never let anyone know, even us who had been to the house many many times.

So if Rudy was a first timer, maybe he wasn't shown any plants.

Its hard to know the circumstances and environment, but from my experience I would think the opposite about them showing him the secret plants.

However, as I think about this, they let Meredith know about the plants early on. They hadn't lived there long and knew each other an even shorter time.

Another question for the boys downstairs maybe?
This and ask if he and Meredith ever had sex upstairs in Merediths room, that would exclude the semen stain from being his.

 

[JREF2010]

Grinder,

Maybe it is not blood in Filomena's room (a true confirmatory test should have been done). Maybe it is blood, but it was carried on the booties of the FP, as Steve Moore has implied in the link I provided earlier today. Substrate controls, taking samples near the stain and checking them for DNA, would have helped to clarify whether or not the stain were related to the DNA.

As for Amanda's blood in the bathroom, I seem to recall seeing a photo of Amanda's pillowcase, and it had a bloodstain that might be explained as coming from her infected ear. IIRC only her blood was on the tap; I am unaware of Meredith's blood being on the tap, although it was elsewhere.

That's the shame of the Italian Fast Track option for Rapists and Murderer's, had Rudy Guede been dissected and studied like Raffaele and Amanda, the truth would be known by now.

 

[Strozzi]

This is the part I'm not sure about. If Rudy had visited the guys downstairs previously he almost certainly knew about their marijuana grow-up, either from talking about it directly or by the smell. Depending on how loose-lipped Giacomo and the others were about their weekend plans, he might also know he could expect to find the stash unguarded that weekend. That gives him a specific reason to burgle that particular house at that particular time. Even more so if he intuited that young men with marketable quantities of drugs and no legitimate enterprises to launder the proceeds through often have large amounts of cash around as well.

Ogantai, were the plants that the guys downstairs growing in a closet a significant or valuable quantity? Could Rudy have smelled their presence?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

the unexamined stain

That's the shame of the Italian Fast Track option for Rapists and Murderer's, had Rudy Guede been dissected and studied like Raffaele and Amanda, the truth would be known by now.

I can see the advantage of the fast-track option for a person who has a great deal evidence against him. It is less obvious what the advantage is to the Italian state in general. Rudy's fast-track trial was a huge disservice to this case. Many of us have said that both the prosecution and the defense had a reason to put forward the multiple attacker conjecture at his trial. In addition, his trial left the putative semen stain unexamined (so far as anyone knows).

 

[Strozzi]

I don't know, I knew someone for a long time before, one very drunk evening, they showed me and the other socialites, the "extra bedroom" with plants growing to the ceiling , a forest almost. This was a highly illegal activity at the time so its understandable they never let anyone know, even us who had been to the house many many times..

Just a quick human interest note about growing marijuana plants at home -
There have been instances in the U.S. where local police made drug arrests of people growing large quantities of marijuana in their homes. They were detected because they used many high-wattage grow lights to grow the plants. Apparently the houses had extraordinarily-high electricity bills and some were detected by that. In other cases the police were suspicious of a house, aimed a thermal imaging device at the house, and detected an extraordinary hotspot. Cases like this are challenged and often dismissed on Constitutional grounds for violating the defendants' right to be protected from unreasonable search.

 

[Grinder]

Seriously, if the police thought Kokoman was involved with Rudy wouldn't you think the police could, ah, prevail upon Rudy in interrogation to talk? For all we know, Rudy was worked over in the Questera much more severely than was Lumumba and told the police what he and Kokoman were doing there - be it an innocent encounter or a drug deal. The police may know from Rudy that his contact with Kokoman there around 8 pm was separate from what happened at the house an hour later. It just explains why Rudy was initially in the neighborhood that evening. And everybody could be keeping quiet about the police persuading Rudy to talk because nobody wants to introduce it into the record.

If Rudy was interrogated, do you think there is a police recording?

Kokomani went to Albania for two months before coming back and having a meeting with Mignini as a witness to seeing the three together that night. The case was well on by that time and if the saving face/embarrassment/ etc. motives were in place...

Where do you get the 8 pm. I find that he didn't know more than it was after dinner which he usually started between 7 and 9.

I'm pretty sure there was a recording in Germany.

 

[Grinder]

I would think that a dishonest guy hanging around foreign girls in Perugia could supplement his income by stealing purses from young women. In cafes, on the dark disco buses at night, at the discos, etc.

My daughter studied in Florence for a semester in 2011. There were 13 American college students in her program - 10 were female. 3 of the 10 females had cash or credit cards stolen from their purses in Florence in a 4 month period, including my daughter.

There you have it, proof positive that Rudy was desperate for money and stole from purses.

It was actually public knowledge exactly how many had cash or cards stolen?

 

[Grinder]

Hey Grinder,
Don't forget this one:
If it was Rudy Guede whom Alessandra Formica saw coming up the steps at sometime between 10:00 and 10:30pm, how did his bloody palmprint and shoeprints magically appear at the crime scene if Meredith Kercher wasn't even murdered yet, not until 11:30pm, when Nara and neighbors heard The Scream?

Just a detail in the prosecution's scenario. You must accept that it is far more likely that three people that didn't know each other well to come together for murder than a known burglar getting caught reacting to a crazed screaming girl by threatening her with a knife and ending up killing her.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

crack witness

"Crowder testified that, although she had been drinking "quite a bit" and smoking crack cocaine, she was "confident" that she saw Thomas get into the vehicle." link. Gregory Taylor was convicted of the murder of Ms. Thomas on the basis of this testimony and a positive Kastle-Meyer presumptive blood test, among other things. The "North Carolina Innocence Inquiry Commission, which investigates and evaluates post-conviction claims of innocence and evidence not considered at trial, decided that there was enough evidence to warrant a review of Taylor's case." Not only in Perugia are drug-addled witnesses considered reliable. Taylor was released after spending 17 years in prison.
EDT
"Tom Bevel, a blood spatter expert and professor at the University of Central Oklahoma, said Wednesday that no human blood was found on Taylor's truck, disputing trial court testimony that says otherwise...Bevel said the follow-up tests should have been included because of the potential for false-positives in the initial tests.

Agents with the City-County Bureau of Investigation, who testified at trial that tests showed the presence of blood, should have clarified that they based their statements on the presumptive tests.

Both the agents and Deaver were wrong, Bevel said." link
EDT2
Dr. Bevel went on to say, "You report what the results are, positive or negative..." This point cannot be overemphasized. Report everything and let the chips fall where they may.

 

[Bill Williams]

This from the Business Insider from Australia...

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/why-amanda-knox-is-completely-innocent-and-the-italian-justice-system-is-criminally-insane-2013-3

In the excellent book on the case, “The Fatal Gift of Beauty; The Trials of Amanda Knox,” author Nina Burleigh painstakingly describes Guede’s history with the law: He was previously arrested for housebreaking, and on one occasion stole a knife (Kercher was stabbed).

The baffling part of the book (which is sourced at a level of detail that’s almost excruciating) is, why was Knox prosecuted in the first place?

The answer is that the Italian prosecutor in charge of the case was an obsessed weirdo who was convicted of corruption.

 

[Dan O.]

Ogantai, were the plants that the guys downstairs growing in a closet a significant or valuable quantity? Could Rudy have smelled their presence?

4 small potted plants in a nook. They are shown in the crime scene video of November 2/3. Would this classify as a cash crop or simply enough to meet their own social needs?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

incoherent narrative

Chris I was only countering the "no physical evidence" remark. As I said if the DNA was valid, I would consider the blob in Filomena's room as evidence and Amanda's blood needing to be explained. The DNA isn't credible so the other "evidence" becomes of little weight.

Saying that there is no evidence against Amanda and Raffaele is technically an overstatement, though an understandable one. The physical evidence against them is weak (such as the bathmat print, which is compatible with being made by a man IMO), and the eyewitness evidence cannot be knit into a coherent narrative/timeline, as RWVBWL implied earlier today.

 

[Bill Williams]

Chris I was only countering the "no physical evidence" remark. As I said if the DNA was valid, I would consider the blob in Filomena's room as evidence and Amanda's blood needing to be explained. The DNA isn't credible so the other "evidence" becomes of little weight.

Saying that there is no evidence against Amanda and Raffaele is technically an overstatement, though an understandable one. The physical evidence against them is weak (such as the bathmat print, which is compatible with being made by a man IMO), and the eyewitness evidence cannot be knit into a coherent narrative/timeline, as RWVBWL implied earlier today.

There is evidence that Filomena and her boyfriend did this crime. It is completely unconvincing and is evidence which also fits into no comprehensive theory of the crime which is a convincing explanation for the crime..... but it is still evidence.

In fact, it is the kind of evidence that another group of haters/Filomena-guilters could latch onto and harp on about for six years, all with their stated goal of "honouring Meredith".

Mignini/Naploeoni could very well have taken the fact that Filomena swiped her own computer, had "rummaged around" in her own room, therefore completing a staging of a break in, and Mignini could have manipulated "spontaneous" declarations from her after her boyfriend was coerced into pulling his alibi for her.

There is evidence and there is evidence. The only convincing evidence about this crime is that Rudy did it, and no one else. So just like saying that there is no evidence against RS and AK "is an overstatement", the same would go for Filomena. Heck, there is "evidence" that Napoleoni did this crime, and manipulated the investigation from the inside!

Of course that would be a monumental overstatement, but give me access to the UK tabloids for about a year which would receive leaked info about her messy divorce, give me a website in the UK, in NY and in Seattle to spread hate about Napoleoni... and I bet there'd still be a lingering Napoleoni-hater community...

 

[Strozzi]

There you have it, proof positive that Rudy was desperate for money and stole from purses.

It was actually public knowledge exactly how many had cash or cards stolen?

Grinder, I didn't say that Rudy stole from foreign students' purses. You made references to Rudy's drug dealer connections. My comment was to point out that there are other ways for a petty thief to illicitly obtain cash besides drug dealing and burglary. My comment was that a dishonest guy who hung around foreign female students could supplement his income if he wanted by stealing students' purses. (I believe foreign students studying abroad are easy targets.)

I cited my knowledge of 3 thefts over a four-month period among the 10 young women in my daughter's study-abroad program to demonstrate how common and frequent it can be. I know of the incidents because my daughter informed me. Actually, several of the victims (my daughter and her roommate) had cash taken several times each from their purses (that makes 5 known thefts from 3 purses in a group of 10 young women).

Theft, drug dealing, and murder happen everywhere. It is not unique to Italy. The reason we are discussing this Perugia case is not because a young woman was murdered (as tragic as it is) but because of how local authorities investigated the case, prepared their scientific evidence, how they used witnesses, and how the justice system functions or fails. That happens everywhere. Wrongful convictions happen everywhere. Failure is universal.

 

[Grinder]

There is evidence that Filomena and her boyfriend did this crime. It is completely unconvincing and is evidence which also fits into no comprehensive theory of the crime which is a convincing explanation for the crime..... but it is still evidence.

Mignini/Naploeoni could very well have taken the fact that Filomena swiped her own computer, had "rummaged around" in her own room, therefore completing a staging of a break in, and Mignini could have manipulated "spontaneous" declarations from her after her boyfriend was coerced into pulling his alibi for her.

She didn't 'swipe' her own computer and she was asked to see if anything was missing. Though I can't prove it, she attended a party with her boyfriend and others and may well have stayed late enough to have an iron clad alibi.

Filomena wasn't the first on the scene. They didn't find a drop of her blood on the faucet. Apparently she gave a coherent account of the evening. Mignini would have needed to break her boyfriend and the others at the birthday party.

I don't believe they found any spots with Filomena's DNA and Meredith's blood or DNA mixed together.

There is evidence and there is evidence. The only convincing evidence about this crime is that Rudy did it, and no one else. So just like saying that there is no evidence against RS and AK "is an overstatement", the same would go for Filomena. Heck, there is "evidence" that Napoleoni did this crime, and manipulated the investigation from the inside!

I don't find the DNA on the knife and bra to be credible but if it were the other compatible pieces would add to the guilty side of the scales.

 

[Bill Williams]

She didn't 'swipe' her own computer and she was asked to see if anything was missing. Though I can't prove it, she attended a party with her boyfriend and others and may well have stayed late enough to have an iron clad alibi.

Filomena wasn't the first on the scene. They didn't find a drop of her blood on the faucet. Apparently she gave a coherent account of the evening. Mignini would have needed to break her boyfriend and the others at the birthday party.

I don't believe they found any spots with Filomena's DNA and Meredith's blood or DNA mixed together.

I've lost count of the number of times we've been around the block on this. If she did not "swipe" her own computer from behind police tape, what would yu call it?

So it is there is far more reason to suspect Filomena of staging the break-in in her room than anyone else... and that's before even considering that it would be impossible really to tell what was what after she'd rummaged around in it.

Filmomena was also the one, to the exclusion of all others incl. the postal police, who seemed to know what was behind the locked door. Of course, some might say that this was because she, to the exclusion of all others, had put 2+2 together in relation to the cellphones being out of Meredith's possession... but a more conspiratorial minded person (like those who suspect AK or RS) could spin quite a tale about "Filomena knows more than she's telling us."

And no one was looking for Filomena's DNA... are you suggesting that the cottage was forensically clean, with regard to Filomena's DNA - a cottage in which she lived? The fact that they didn't find any suggests either that no one was looking for it, or that someone sterilized the cottage just before 9 pm on Nov 1, ready to receive the perp's unique signature.

You'd agree, though, that just as much of Filomena's DNA was found in the murder room as anyone's, save for the victim and Rudy!? Don't you find that suspicious?

 

[Grinder]

I've lost count of the number of times we've been around the block on this. If she did not "swipe" her own computer from behind police tape, what would yu call it?

Retrieving her work computer.

So it is there is far more reason to suspect Filomena of staging the break-in in her room than anyone else... and that's before even considering that it would be impossible really to tell what was what after she'd rummaged around in it.

This is nothing but a fog of nonsense. She had an alibi. Why would she leave the computer she needed for work in the 'staged' break in when she could just have taken it to her boyfriend's house?

Filmomena was also the one, to the exclusion of all others incl. the postal police, who seemed to know what was behind the locked door. Of course, some might say that this was because she, to the exclusion of all others, had put 2+2 together in relation to the cellphones being out of Meredith's possession... but a more conspiratorial minded person (like those who suspect AK or RS) could spin quite a tale about "Filomena knows more than she's telling us."

Being confronted with the scene AND at the same time knowing that the cell phones had been thrown in a yard gave her a slightly different perspective AND she was the lease holder and took responsibility much like Amanda did for the noise ticket.

And no one was looking for Filomena's DNA... are you suggesting that the cottage was forensically clean, with regard to Filomena's DNA - a cottage in which she lived? The fact that they didn't find any suggests either that no one was looking for it, or that someone sterilized the cottage just before 9 pm on Nov 1, ready to receive the perp's unique signature.

How do you know what they were 'looking' for? In the spots highlighted by luminol were any of them found to have Meredith's and any other DNA than Amanda?

You'd agree, though, that just as much of Filomena's DNA was found in the murder room as anyone's, save for the victim and Rudy!? Don't you find that suspicious?

I'm beginning to find it suspicious that your DNA wasn't found there.

 

[Strozzi]

She didn't 'swipe' her own computer and she was asked to see if anything was missing. Though I can't prove it, she attended a party with her boyfriend and others and may well have stayed late enough to have an iron clad alibi.

Filomena wasn't the first on the scene. They didn't find a drop of her blood on the faucet. Apparently she gave a coherent account of the evening. Mignini would have needed to break her boyfriend and the others at the birthday party.

I don't believe they found any spots with Filomena's DNA and Meredith's blood or DNA mixed together.

I don't find the DNA on the knife and bra to be credible but if it were the other compatible pieces would add to the guilty side of the scales.

I have just a few devil's advocate questions: How many of the people who were at the party with Filomena and her boyfriend went over to Filomena's when the first party was over? Do we know why Filomena cleaned up her DNA, but left Rudy's? Was she trying to shift all the blame to him? Why were Filomena and Rudy using her bathroom to smoke dope, but when Rudy needed to clean the blood off him Filomena made him use Meredith's bathroom. Of course Mignini and the police went easy on Filomena. She was working as a lawyer-apprentice for a well connected local law firm. They knew prominent people in the Perugia judicial system and the police. Why did Filomena "lawyer-up" so quickly? Staging the break-in in her own bedroom was very clever - it made investigators look at others instead of her. It also allowed her to use the "slob" alibi.

 

[Grinder]

I have just a few devil's advocate questions: How many of the people who were at the party with Filomena and her boyfriend went over to Filomena's when the first party was over? Do we know why Filomena cleaned up her DNA, but left Rudy's? Was she trying to shift all the blame to him? Why were Filomena and Rudy using her bathroom to smoke dope, but when Rudy needed to clean the blood off him Filomena made him use Meredith's bathroom. Of course Mignini and the police went easy on Filomena. She was working as a lawyer-apprentice for a well connected local law firm. They knew prominent people in the Perugia judicial system and the police. Why did Filomena "lawyer-up" so quickly?

The devil just fired you for being a lousy advocate.

There is absolutely nothing in the credible record that indicates Filomena and her boyfriend didn't have rock solid alibis. They had the next day off and were celebrating a birthday. They were in their twenties and in Italy so it is highly probable that they weren't finished eating before 10 pm. They weren't withing walking distance.

Could you give details on the firm being well connected? What did she do to 'lawyer up"? Did she just call an associate about the lease situation? Did she need him when she took her computer to the police station?

Not to be too harsh but you have recently given 'facts' that were in fact not correct. Nara didn't awaken to the scream and I have yet to see proof that Rudy was 'desperate' for rent money.

Until Bill proves that Filomena didn't have a real alibi or rummaged (not from Follain) in her room without police permission before supporting this ridiculous theory.