Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Grinder]

I don't know any reason to believe Rudy had an accomplice. Rudy had no visible means of support and needed money. The fact that Kokoman was seen driving by or even parking there earlier that evening only indicates that he may have had a meeting there with Rudy earlier, or that he was just passing by or coming out of the parking lot, spotted Rudy, and stopped to talk with him. No indication that Kokoman was there around 9 pm or that he entered the property.

There is far more evidence that Kokomani was at the scene around 9 pm than there is that Rudy needed money desperately. There was cell activity by Kokomani in the area that night.

 

[Strozzi]

There is far more evidence that Kokomani was at the scene around 9 pm than there is that Rudy needed money desperately. There was cell activity by Kokomani in the area that night.

Maybe Curatalo was tutoring Kokoman in Italian. Or perhaps they were discussing newspaper stories that Curatalo liked to read by streetlight every evening between 10 pm and midnight.

Don't tell me Kokoman was there to see Nara! I couldn't handle that.

 

[acbytesla]

There is far more evidence that Kokomani was at the scene around 9 pm than there is that Rudy needed money desperately. There was cell activity by Kokomani in the area that night.

I think there is an assumption that Rudy needed money. He was unemployed and had been for a while and the rent was due. Maybe others might know if Rudy had money either in a bank account or elsewhere. I think his step parents had kind of disowned him at this point.

Let's just say, there is a bit of evidence that Rudy as of lately was getting his money by burglarizing other people's houses. Maybe he wasn't desperate, just working his new craft.

 

[Strozzi]

There is far more evidence that Kokomani was at the scene around 9 pm than there is that Rudy needed money desperately. There was cell activity by Kokomani in the area that night.

Seriously, if the police thought Kokoman was involved with Rudy wouldn't you think the police could, ah, prevail upon Rudy in interrogation to talk? For all we know, Rudy was worked over in the Questera much more severely than was Lumumba and told the police what he and Kokoman were doing there - be it an innocent encounter or a drug deal. The police may know from Rudy that his contact with Kokoman there around 8 pm was separate from what happened at the house an hour later. It just explains why Rudy was initially in the neighborhood that evening. And everybody could be keeping quiet about the police persuading Rudy to talk because nobody wants to introduce it into the record.

If Rudy was interrogated, do you think there is a police recording?

 

[RandyN]

Those aren't buttons! They are body piercings adorned with body jewelry - like nipple rings and more.

Hummm looks like your standard coal buttons to me. And speaking of nipple rings ...that proves she is wearing something since I see no nipples or even boobs which proves either surgical alteration or snow colored outer clothing. Im going with the snow suit.

Great show on PBS today...do a search for "CSI on Trial" since it plays at different times all over the country. Covers false confession, police corruption, prosecutor misbehavior...this could be show about the RS, AK case. just one hour, but they cover much ground.

 

[Strozzi]

I think there is an assumption that Rudy needed money. He was unemployed and had been for a while and the rent was due. Maybe others might know if Rudy had money either in a bank account or elsewhere. I think his step parents had kind of disowned him at this point.

Let's just say, there is a bit of evidence that Rudy as of lately was getting his money by burglarizing other people's houses. Maybe he wasn't desperate, just working his new craft.

I would think that a dishonest guy hanging around foreign girls in Perugia could supplement his income by stealing purses from young women. In cafes, on the dark disco buses at night, at the discos, etc.

My daughter studied in Florence for a semester in 2011. There were 13 American college students in her program - 10 were female. 3 of the 10 females had cash or credit cards stolen from their purses in Florence in a 4 month period, including my daughter.

 

[davefoc]

Seriously, if the police thought Kokoman was involved with Rudy wouldn't you think the police could, ah, prevail upon Rudy in interrogation to talk? For all we know, Rudy was worked over in the Questera much more severely than was Lumumba and told the police what he and Kokoman were doing there - be it an innocent encounter or a drug deal. The police may know from Rudy that his contact with Kokoman there around 8 pm was separate from what happened at the house an hour later. It just explains why Rudy was initially in the neighborhood that evening. And everybody is keeping quiet about the police persuading Rudy to talk because nobody wants to introduce it into the record.

I think it is easy to imagine some kind of police/prosecution and Guede conspiracies if you believe that the evidence so strongly supports the innocence of RS/AK.

The fact seems to be that at some point in time a conspiracy was entered into with Guede as part of an effort to get RS/AK. The question is what is the nature of this conspiracy. I don't know the answer or even have a reasoned guess. Why did Guede get his sweetheart deal for rape and murder with various other aggravating circumstances? I don't think we'll ever know although if we live long enough (and I don't think I'm going to make it to then) Guede, his lawyer or somebody in the know might talk. Until then every time strange things come up that might have been part of a conspiracy, I'm going to wonder if they weren't part of a conspiracy but there won't be any evidence to sort the situation out.

 

[RWVBWL]

This is too much fun:

The prevailing defence scenario is that Meredith came home and surprised Guede while he was in the bathroom. He came out and, unable to leave via the broken front door, was forced to attack Meredith for her keys. Never mind that the obvious thing to do would be to escape via some other route, rather than escalate to a face to face confrontation, let alone a murder-rape. All the defence can say at this point is that prosecution scenario has a couple of missing scenes, and that the bounty of other evidence against Knox and Sollecito is wrong. But there are several plausible ways to fill the prosecution's missing scenes. Essentially all of them involve Knox being the instigator, so it's fitting that she should get the longest sentence.

Ah perhaps it is possible that he was confronted by her, you think? Yes the PG scenario has a few missing scenes like how they met up that night and why Rudy would join in the killing of Meredith. Or how about how they were able to kill her time to stop her digestion before anything reached the duodenum. Or how they were able to be in the plaza and murder her at the same times and get back and forth without the car people and tow truck noticing her. How they were able to be involved in a violent knife murder and get no cuts and leave nothing behind. If they want to count the bra clasp then they need to explain how a tiny amount of DNA was there but nothing on the other parts of the bra, oh and none in the room or on her body or clothes.

Yes a few scenes are missing but clearly the fact that Rudy didn't run and dive out of Filomena's window is a much stronger argument.

Hey Grinder,
Don't forget this one:
If it was Rudy Guede whom Alessandra Formica saw coming up the steps at sometime between 10:00 and 10:30pm, how did his bloody palmprint and shoeprints magically appear at the crime scene if Meredith Kercher wasn't even murdered yet, not until 11:30pm, when Nara and neighbors heard The Scream?

 

[Strozzi]

I think it is easy to imagine some kind of police/prosecution and Guede conspiracies if you believe that the evidence so strongly supports the innocence of RS/AK.

The fact seems to be that at some point in time a conspiracy was entered into with Guede as part of an effort to get RS/AK. The question is what is the nature of this conspiracy. I don't know the answer or even have a reasoned guess. Why did Guede get his sweetheart deal for rape and murder with various other aggravating circumstances? I don't think we'll ever know although if we live long enough (and I don't think I'm going to make it to then) Guede, his lawyer or somebody in the know might talk. Until then every time strange things come up that might have been part of a conspiracy, I'm going to wonder if they weren't part of a conspiracy but there won't be any evidence to sort the situation out.

Dave, I know of no reason to believe there is or was an actual conspiracy between the police and prosecutor and Rudy and his attorney. I do assume that Mignini and Rudy's attorney conferred on what the evidence is against Rudy and that it would be good if Rudy not take the witness stand and be subject to cross-examination, thus allowing Mignini to play the case he wants against Amanda and Raffaele without fear of Rudy messing up and contradicting Mignini's version of events.

 

[RWVBWL]

Hey Guilters,
If it was Rudy Guede whom Alessandra Formica saw coming up the steps at sometime between 10:00 and 10:30pm, how did his bloody palmprint and shoeprints magically appear at the crime scene if Meredith Kercher wasn't even murdered yet, not until 11:30pm, when Nara and neighbors heard The Scream?

I'll continue on with another possible Pro-Guilt Theory, and ask a few more questions too:

If Guede had split at 10 to 10:30, where'd he go?
To get drugs and come back? Maybe bring a friend back also,
ya know, to get the party rollin' on a holiday evenin' with some new friends.

Too

What about "Toto"

we can't forget that he stated in court the he kept seeing Amanda + Raff outside that night.

Maybe Amanda and Raff went outside too when Rudy left,
back to hanging around outside near Curatolo?
What do you think?

What were Amanda and Raff doing while outside?
Maybe smokin' a spinello

while arguin', as "Toto" said they were?

What was Meredith doing since she got home?
Reading that borrowed history book from 9:15pm until the party-ers came back inside?

Or had they restrained Meredith before they left?
Was she tied up, hands and feet bound, and her mouth gagged with all the lights turned off?

Didn't the tow truck operator and the folks with the broken down car say that they saw no lights nor heard noise from Meredith's flat that night? For how long, 45 minutes or something close to that?

And all 3, Rudy, Raff, + Amanda were just waiting outside on a cold November night for the tow truck to bail so they could re-enter the cottage, party some more and kill and rape Meredith?

Guilters, sound about right?
Got anything to add or change?

 

[davefoc]

Dave, I know of no reason to believe there is or was an actual conspiracy between the police and prosecutor and Rudy and his attorney. I do assume that Mignini and Rudy's attorney conferred on what the evidence is against Rudy and that it would be good if Rudy not take the witness stand and be subject to cross-examination, thus allowing Mignini to play the case he wants against Amanda and Raffaele without fear of Rudy messing up and contradicting Mignini's version of events.

I think perhaps you and I are using the word, conspiracy, differently. Somehow Guede has ended up with an amazingly small sentence for a brutal rape and murder. The prosecutor seems to have made no effort to include prior bad acts or facts of this crime to build a case for aggravating circumstances in his charges against Guede.

In addition, Guede got his sweetheart deal without ever confessing or providing a narrative of the crime that made sense. And he, conveniently for himself and the prosecutor, put forth his addled attempts to involve Knox and Sollecito without ever needing to submit his testimony to cross examination and without ever needing to provide corroborating details. Something, unknown to the general public is going on here between Guede, his lawyer and Mignini. That is what I would call a conspiracy and it seems like this conspiracy might involve more than what is apparent. But perhaps not and my views about how incredibly weak the case against Knox and Sollecito is might be causing me to over speculate about the possibility of a wider conspiracy.

 

[RandyN]

I think it is easy to imagine some kind of police/prosecution and Guede conspiracies if you believe that the evidence so strongly supports the innocence of RS/AK.

The fact seems to be that at some point in time a conspiracy was entered into with Guede as part of an effort to get RS/AK. The question is what is the nature of this conspiracy. I don't know the answer or even have a reasoned guess. Why did Guede get his sweetheart deal for rape and murder with various other aggravating circumstances? I don't think we'll ever know although if we live long enough (and I don't think I'm going to make it to then) Guede, his lawyer or somebody in the know might talk. Until then every time strange things come up that might have been part of a conspiracy, I'm going to wonder if they weren't part of a conspiracy but there won't be any evidence to sort the situation out.

Dave if you can find the show I saw today on PBS called CSI on Trial it pretty much covers exactly how things like this case happen...now the never ending prosecution and supreme court appeals and a case that could presumably go on forever seem to be unique to Italy. A point Dalla Vedova has been trying to make without much success for a while now. The unjustness of the never ending trial. I hope somebody makes Italy pay for this stupidity.



As to why? Try searching out information on Migninis crazy history especially the Narducci case where he is on full display as someone not playing with a full deck. There he has double body swaps and pants that dont fit so that must mean something on a dead body...in this case he arrests and tries 20 plus family and friends and other notables...all later found innocent by a judge forced to write a motivation report over 1000 pages long explaining why Mignini is bonkers...a judge also utilized in the RS/AK case named Micheli.

 

[Strozzi]

I think perhaps you and I are using the word, conspiracy, differently. Somehow Guede has ended up with an amazingly small sentence for a brutal rape and murder. The prosecutor seems to have made no effort to include prior bad acts or facts of this crime to build a case for aggravating circumstances in his charges against Guede.

In addition, Guede got his sweetheart deal without ever confessing or providing a narrative of the crime that made sense. And he, conveniently for himself and the prosecutor, put forth his addled attempts to involve Knox and Sollecito without ever needing to submit his testimony to cross examination and without ever needing to provide corroborating details. Something, unknown to the general public is going on here between Guede, his lawyer and Mignini. That is what I would call a conspiracy and it seems like this conspiracy might involve more than what is apparent. But perhaps not and my views about how incredibly weak the case against Knox and Sollecito is might be causing me to over speculate about the possibility of a wider conspiracy.

Dave, I agree with that. Yes, it comes down to definition of conspiracy. I think things were done through tacit understandings rather than formal verbal commitments between the prosecutor and Rudy's defense attorney.

Rudy was very lucky when he was on the run in Germany that the police and Mignini went after Amanda and Raffaele. That meant that Rudy could acknowledge being there, as he had to do with his evidence at the crime scene and flight to German, but downplay his involvement by claiming that he was in the toilet when the crime occurred and that some other guy did it. Rudy's attorney understands this. Mignini had the ability to punish Rudy much more severely than he did. What Mignini wanted in return were no statements from Rudy that showed Mignini to be wrong. Just imagine what would have happened to Mignini's reputation if Rudy found Christ and told the truth. Mignini does not want Rudy to take the stand and be cross-examined and disclose his sole involvement in the crime or described how his attorney got a tacit understanding from Mignini to concur with lenient treatment.

Mignini and Stefanoni will go down in history not only for their persecution of two innocent people, but for allowing Rudy to escape more severe punishment.

 

[kwill]

I haven't seen much evidence that Guede was either persuasive or charming as of 2007. Tramontano says Guede pulled a knife on him, and del Prato described him as someone who seemed dangerous. Zach Novak says Guede had a reputation for harassing women in bars, and a witness testified that Guede harassed women on the street.

We don't know how it started, much less what he was thinking. Certainly it's possible he resorted to murder because he was trapped in a situation he would have preferred to avoid. IMO it's just as possible he decided to rape and kill Meredith the moment she walked through the door and he realized he had her alone.

I was being a little ironic, but I think if there was one person who thought he could talk his way out of an awkward situation, that person might be named Rudy Guede -- the guy who had NOT been arrested even after being caught inside a nursery school, even after being caught with stolen property in his possession.

Men who harass women in bars and on the street, in my experience, believe themselves to be far, far more appealing than they actually are. And I say that as a woman who has been the recipient of this kind of aggressive you-know-you-want-it behavior more often than I care to remember.

To me it makes a sort of sense that given Guede's known history, he might have made an attempt of some kind to resolve his situation (being caught inside the women's flat) by attempting to talk his way out of it. That said, of course we can't know what was in his head . . . just that whatever it was, it ended with him using a knife on Meredith. Alone.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

I think it is easy to imagine some kind of police/prosecution and Guede conspiracies if you believe that the evidence so strongly supports the innocence of RS/AK.

The fact seems to be that at some point in time a conspiracy was entered into with Guede as part of an effort to get RS/AK. The question is what is the nature of this conspiracy. I don't know the answer or even have a reasoned guess. Why did Guede get his sweetheart deal for rape and murder with various other aggravating circumstances? I don't think we'll ever know although if we live long enough (and I don't think I'm going to make it to then) Guede, his lawyer or somebody in the know might talk. Until then every time strange things come up that might have been part of a conspiracy, I'm going to wonder if they weren't part of a conspiracy but there won't be any evidence to sort the situation out.

Dave, if you can spare an hour, watch this link I posted last night:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/david-camm-walking-free/

Here the authorities actively collaborated with the real killer to frame the innocent guy they had already accused, and they got him to testify.

This happens a lot. Once the authorities make a public accusation in a high-profile case, they will do anything rather than admit they were wrong.

 

[Antony]

Dave, if you can spare an hour, watch this link I posted last night:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/david-camm-walking-free/

Here the authorities actively collaborated with the real killer to frame the innocent guy they had already accused, and they got him to testify.

This happens a lot. Once the authorities make a public accusation in a high-profile case, they will do anything rather than admit they were wrong.

Truly compelling, and another case in a pattern of Cluedo thinking by investigators: go for whoever is in front of them instead of looking elsewhere - so the family or household member who discovered the crime, or the volunteer who wants to help them find the missing person.

All of this inflates the statistics which suggest that the murderer is frequently someone close to the victim; read: "people convicted of murder are frequently close to the victim".

 

[Strozzi]

[QUOTE=kwill;9719948
Men who harass women in bars and on the street, in my experience, believe themselves to be far, far more appealing than they actually are.

Oh, I see you've met acbytesla.

 

[Mary_H]

I think perhaps you and I are using the word, conspiracy, differently. Somehow Guede has ended up with an amazingly small sentence for a brutal rape and murder. The prosecutor seems to have made no effort to include prior bad acts or facts of this crime to build a case for aggravating circumstances in his charges against Guede.

In addition, Guede got his sweetheart deal without ever confessing or providing a narrative of the crime that made sense. And he, conveniently for himself and the prosecutor, put forth his addled attempts to involve Knox and Sollecito without ever needing to submit his testimony to cross examination and without ever needing to provide corroborating details. Something, unknown to the general public is going on here between Guede, his lawyer and Mignini. That is what I would call a conspiracy and it seems like this conspiracy might involve more than what is apparent. But perhaps not and my views about how incredibly weak the case against Knox and Sollecito is might be causing me to over speculate about the possibility of a wider conspiracy.

Rudy's adoptive family is among the wealthiest and most powerful in Perugia.

 

[Strozzi]

To me it makes a sort of sense that given Guede's known history, he might have made an attempt of some kind to resolve his situation (being caught inside the women's flat) by attempting to talk his way out of it. That said, of course we can't know what was in his head . . . just that whatever it was, it ended with him using a knife on Meredith. Alone.

I see several reasons why Rudy could not have tried to talk his way out of the situation. I think Rudy immediately pulled out his knife when he heard the front door open - it would have been a natural move to defend himself - he would not have known at first how many people were coming in the front door. If Meredith saw him in her initially-darkened flat or saw him with a knife in his hand, no rational conversation would have been possible. She may have screamed at seeing or hearing him, precluding any conversation. Additionally, Meredith's rudimentary Italian may have made any conversation impossible even if he attempted it. Lastly, for Rudy to even try to talk his way out requires him to have the presence of mind to attempt conversation.

 

[Strozzi]

Rudy's adoptive family is among the wealthiest and most powerful in Perugia.

Mary, I doubt that the wealthy family's (earlier) support of Rudy would be a factor in a gruesome murder that brought scores of Italian and foreign reporters to Perugia. The police might have been lenient with Rudy due to the wealthy family's (earlier) support if the police caught or suspected Rudy of committing a less-serious crime, but not for the slaughter of a young woman.