Merged What the quran really says.

[realpaladin]

How have you managed to disprove that Jesus existed?

Nope. Don't need to. I am not the one claiming he did exist.

 

[Dohvakiin]

Mikeb768, since it is obvious nobody could ever live to be 950 years old, it is fairly certain that to claim Noah lived to 950 years is a mistake.

Presumably the amount of time which constituted a year was much less than what we're familiar with, measured on a lunar cycle perhaps?

Merely conjecture on my part, but if 1 Julian calendar year= (for example) 10 of these hypothetical years, then Noah lived to be 95. Still seems unlikely but not impossible. Just a thought.

 

[Dohvakiin]

or maybe it was a typo

 

[Scorpion]

Scorpion, the method you have adopted seems to be, "If I can demonstrate one solid, factual error, then I have grounds to throw the whole thing out."

But, when I use your method on what you wrote (your first listed claim) and find that you have made an error, shouldn't I throw out everything else you claim as well?

Should I be expected to research all your claims, having found fault in the very first? At what point will the exercise end?

Here is an alternative for you. If you can find one single passage in the Quran that speaks to your heart, from Allah, then treasure that passage and hold it as your own - a gift from God. Instead of looking for the dirt, seek ye the ore and mine that.

I will throw out anything that is provably false, especially when it makes God out to be a sadistic monster, like the quran does.
I used to go to white eagle lodge, which is a spiritualist temple, and I found it very uplifting. I purchased all the books and read them for years. Then one day I found a passage in one that said there were people on Mars and Venus. I promptly sold the entire book collection.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Mikeb768, since it is obvious nobody could ever live to be 950 years old, it is fairly certain that to claim Noah lived to 950 years is a mistake.

Do they have the whole flood story? If so, oh vey!

 

[Craig4]

Why do people continue to make this claim "the Quran is incorrect in a lot of things" without providing any actual support?

Many websites which make claims like:
1,000 errors in the Quran!
100,000 errors in the Quran!
1,000,000 errors in the Quran!
All seem to come up short after the claims are further evaluated.

Maybe if someone was to just provide "1" good error (try taking the quality over quantity approach)?

If you or others think you have managed to find a real error, then please share it with the rest of us? So far the only supported claim in this entire thread seems to be one that the Quran makes regarding the sun and moon having an orbit. Which is something which has over time clearly been determined to be true.

Until then...
http://s30.postimg.org/opgnna941/timeline.png

Prove Angels exist and that Mohamed took dictation from one.

 

[Scorpion]

Do they have the whole flood story? If so, oh vey!

The story of the flood from the quran.

11.37. "But construct an Ark under Our eyes and Our inspiration, and address Me no (further) on behalf of those who are in sin: for they are about to be overwhelmed (in the Flood)."
11.38. Forthwith he starts constructing the Ark: every time that the Chiefs of his People passed by him, they threw ridicule on him. They threw ridicule on him. He said: "If ye ridicule us now, we (in our turn) can look down on you with ridicule likewise!
11.39. "But soon will ye know who it is on whom will descend a Penalty that will cover them with shame on whom will be unloosed a Penalty lasting."
11.40. At length behold! There came Our Command, and the fountains of the earth gushed forth! We said: "Embark therein of each kind two, male and female, and your family except those against whom the Word has already gone forth and the Believers." But only a few believed with him.
11.41. So he said: "Embark ye on the Ark in the name of Allah, whether it move or be at rest! For my Lord is, be sure, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful!"
11.42. So the Ark floated with them on the waves (towering) like mountains, and Noah called out to his son, who had separated himself (from the rest): "O my son! Embark with us, and be not with the Unbelievers!"
11.43. The son replied: "I will be take myself to some mountain: it will save me from the water." Noah said: "This day nothing can save, from the Command of Allah, any but those on whom He hath mercy!"? and the waves came between them, and the son was among those overwhelmed in the Flood.
11.44. When the word went forth: "O earth! swallow up thy water, and O sky! withhold (thy rain)!" and the water abated, and the matter was ended. The Ark rested on Mount Judi, and the word went forth: "Away with those who do wrong!"

 

[Brainache]

A second error in the quran is that it includes a story about Jesus childhood which is copied from an early book of fables.

The story in the quran concerning Jesus childhood, about an incident where he makes a clay bird and brings it to life is not a part of the Christian bible, and the original texts are considered apocryphal. They are regarded by Christian scholars as having been written in around 150AD, as propaganda by the early Christians, attempting to fill in the missing years of Jesus life.

The following are two verses in the quran that contain the references.
From the Yusuf Ali translation.

003.049 "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by God's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in
your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;

005.110 Then will God say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold ! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'

As can be seen the quran speaks of only one bird, and says Jesus breathed life into it. But the only historical text that contains such a story speaks of 12 birds, and they were brought to life by Jesus commanding them to "Go". Therefore the quran does not even get the facts of the original fictional document correct. Added to this the New Testament states that Jesus did his first miracle at a time he was around thirty years old. (John 2.11)

Here is the relevant text, translated from Greek and written in, The Apocryphal New Testament, by M.R.James, published by Oxford:Clarendon press, 1924.
The stories of Thomas the Israelite, (not St Thomas of the bible) the philosopher, concerning the works of the childhood of the Lord.

1. I, Thomas the Israelite, tell you, and all the brethren that are Gentile, the works of the childhood of our Lord Jesus Christ and his mighty deeds, and all that he did when he was born in our land.
2.1 This little child Jesus when he was five years old was playing at the ford of a brook: and he gathered together the water that flowed there into pools, and made them clean, and commanded them by his word alone.
2.2 Having made soft clay, he fashioned twelve sparrows. It was the Sabbath when he did these things. And there were also many other little children playing with him.
2.3. A certain Jew when he saw what Jesus did, playing upon the Sabbath day, departed and told his father Joseph: your child is at the brook, and he has taken clay and fashioned twelve little birds, and has polluted the Sabbath day.
2.4. Joseph came to the place and saw: and cried out to him, saying: Why do you do these things on the Sabbath, which it is not lawful to do? But Jesus clapped his hands together and cried out to the sparrows and said to them: Go! and the sparrows took their flight and went away chirping.
2.5 when the Jews saw it they were amazed, and departed and told their chief men that which they had seen Jesus do.

There is a reference to this story, and the flaws in it in the book.
The original sources of the quran. by William St Clair Tisdall.
This book is in the public domain and can be found on the Internet.

Just to put on my tinfoil turban for two seconds:

Could that be a poetic retelling of the heavenly dove descending on a man and bestowing Divine Grace that happens at Jesus' Baptism in Mark?

The adoptionist theology of a normal man (clay, as per Genesis) endowed with God's power on Earth? As opposed to the High Christology of the Roman Church of the time?

 

[mikeb768]

Nope. Don't need to. I am not the one claiming he did exist.

Do you have any evidence to show that your
great,
great,
great,
great,
great,
great,
great,
great grandfather also existed?

I'm going to guess "No", but I'm pretty sure that you wouldn't deny his existence?

 

[Craig4]

Do you have any evidence to show that your
great,
great,
great,
great,
great,
great,
great,
great grandfather also existed?

I'm going to guess "No", but I'm pretty sure that you wouldn't deny his existence?

Well, since he exists, yes, rather good evidence.

 

[realpaladin]

Do you have any evidence to show that your
great,
great,
great,
great,
great,
great,
great,
great grandfather also existed?

I'm going to guess "No", but I'm pretty sure that you wouldn't deny his existence?

The process of human reproduction has as a precondition that there is ancestral biological material.
So, depending on how far back you want to go, the causal nature of this process makes for an undeniable spot in the evolutionary tree.

It does not matter whether I deny it or not ; the process has a provable causality.

I fail to see how this will help you to make your point, so please enlighten me.

Edit : so yes, I have incontrovertible proof that he existed.

 

[marplots]

I will throw out anything that is provably false, especially when it makes God out to be a sadistic monster, like the quran does.
I used to go to white eagle lodge, which is a spiritualist temple, and I found it very uplifting. I purchased all the books and read them for years. Then one day I found a passage in one that said there were people on Mars and Venus. I promptly sold the entire book collection.

So long as you submit to that same standard, that I should throw out all you say if I once detect error, I cannot complain that you are being inconsistent or hypocritical.

"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."

 

[realpaladin]

"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."

This will be the moment you pull your silver Desert Eagle from your belt and get all righteous on our behinds?

Sorry, could not resist ;-)

 

[marplots]

This will be the moment you pull your silver Desert Eagle from your belt and get all righteous on our behinds?

Sorry, could not resist ;-)

Man, I wish. You know how much those things are worth? Serious buckos.

Turns out my wrists are too "girly" to shoot one though.

On topic, I'm an atheist. That doesn't mean I can't find a few worthwhile nuggets in someone's holy text. It would be a true miracle to write a volume that big and have absolutely nothing of merit in it.

 

[mikeb768]

The quran is absolutely filled with brief references to bible characters, most of them obvious myths, stated as facts in the quran.

For example there is Noah's ark, and Jonah and the whale, and the drowning of Pharaohs army, all in the quran as history when they are obvious myths.

Here is a list of the bible characters in the quran. As can be seen the list is extensive. What is more most of the references are just name dropping with no details of the narratives in the bible.

Aaron, 4:163, 6:84, 7:122, 7:142, 7:150, 7:172, 10:75, 19:53, 20:30, 20:40, 20:90, 20:92, 21:48, 23:45, 25:35, 26:12, 26:48, 28:34, 37:114-120

Abraham, 2:124-129, 2:130-132, 2:135, 2:136, 2:140, 2:258, 2:260, 3:65, 3:67-68, 3:84, 3:95, 3:97, 4:54-55, 4:125, 4:163, 6:74-83, 6:161, 9:70, 9:114, 11:69-76, 12:6, 12:38, 14:35, 15:51-56, 16:120, 16:123, 19:41-49, 19:58, 21:51-73, 22:26, 22:43, 22:78, 26:69, 29:16, 29:25, 29:31, 33:7, 37:83-109, 38:45, 42:13, 43:26, 51:24-34, 53:37, 57:26, 60:4-5, 87:19

Adam, 2:31-32, 3:33, 5:27, 7:19-25, 17:61, 17:70, 18:50, 19:58, 20:115-123, 40:31, 41:13, 41:15

Cain and Abel, 5:27-31

David, 4:163, 5:78, 6:84, 17:55, 21:78, 21:79, 27:15-16, 34:10, 34:13, 38:17, 38:21-26, 38:30

Elijah, 6:85, 37:123-130

Isaac, 2:136, 2:140, 3:84, 4:163, 6:84, 11:71, 12:5, 12:6, 12:38, 14:39, 21:72, 37:112-113, 38:45

Ishmael, 2:136, 2:140, 3:84, 4:163, 6:86, 14:39, 21:85, 37:102-109, 38:48

Jacob (Israel), 3:84, 4:163, 6:84, 6:85, 11:71, 12:38, 12:68, 19:6, 19:49-50, 19:58, 21:72

Jesus, 4:163, 9:30, 9:31, 10:68, 19:30-34, 21:91, 23:50, 33:7, 61:6, 61:14

Job, 4:163, 6:84, 21:83, 38:41-44

John the Baptist, 3:38-40, 6:85, 6:86, 19:7-15, 21:90

Jonah, 4:163, 6:86, 10:98, 21:87, 37:139-148, 68:48

Joseph, 6:84, 12:4-101, 12:102, 40:34

Mary, 3:34-37, 3:42-47, 4:156-157, 4:171, 5:17, 5:46, 5:72, 5:78, 5:110, 5:112, 5:114, 5:116, 9:31, 19:16-39, 21:91, 23:50, 33:7, 43:57, 56:27, 61:6, 61:14, 66:12

Moses, 3:84, 6:84, 6:91, 7:103-162, 10:75-93, 11:96, 11:110, 14:5, 14:6, 14:8, 17:2, 17:101-104, 18:60-82, 19:51-53, 20:9-98, 21:48, 22:44, 23:45-49, 25:35, 26:10-66, 27:7-14, 28:3-43, 28:44, 28:48, 28:76, 29:39, 32:23, 33:7, 33:69, 37:114-120, 40:23-27, 40:53, 41:45, 42:13, 43:46-55, 44:17-36, 46:12, 46:30, 51:38-40, 53:36, 61:5, 79:14-25, 87:19

Noah, 3:33, 6:84, 7:59-64, 7:69, 9:70, 10:71, 11:25-33, 11:36-48, 11:89, 14:9, 17:3, 17:17, 19:58, 21:76, 22:42, 23:23-29, 25:37, 26:105-120, 29:14, 37:75-79, 38:12, 40:5, 40:31, 42:13, 50:12, 51:46, 53:52, 54:9, 57:26, 66:10

Pharaoh, 7:104-137, 8:52, 8:54, 10:75-90, 11:97, 14:6, 20:24, 20:43, 20:56, 20:60, 20:78, 23:46, 26:10-66, 27:12, 28:3-42, 29:39, 38:12, 40:24-46, 43:46-85, 44:17, 44:31, 50:13, 51:38-40, 54:41-42, 66:11, 69:9, 73:15-16, 79:17-25, 85:18

Saul, 2:247, 2:249

Solomon, 2:101, 4:163, 6:84, 21:78, 21:79, 21:81, 27:15-21, 34:12-14

Zachariah, 3:37-41, 6:85, 19:2-12

This is a silly approach, you are trying to claim that every person who is mentioned in the Bible are all only fictional characters and the Quran came along and copied these fictional characters. In order for your claim to hold any merit you have to deny a great deal historical events and the genealogy / lineage of a large multitude of people.

The people of Canaan
Jewish History
Roman History

Just to name a few things.

 

[mikeb768]

The process of human reproduction has as a precondition that there is ancestral biological material.
So, depending on how far back you want to go, the causal nature of this process makes for an undeniable spot in the evolutionary tree.

It does not matter whether I deny it or not ; the process has a provable causality.

I fail to see how this will help you to make your point, so please enlighten me.

Edit : so yes, I have incontrovertible proof that he existed.

I see, so you have no proof but you still believe?

 

[realpaladin]

On topic, I'm an atheist. That doesn't mean I can't find a few worthwhile nuggets in someone's holy text. It would be a true miracle to write a volume that big and have absolutely nothing of merit in it.

And that merits an amen!

Also, being wrong is not necessarily the same as being a bad person.

 

[realpaladin]

I see, so you have no proof but you still believe?

Unless there you do not believe in biology I just gave you proof that fulfills all criteria of being unmistakable and incontrovertible proof.

The provable causality of the process leaves neither room for speculation nor belief.

You *do* know where babies come from?

 

[Craig4]

I see, so you have no proof but you still believe?

He has proof. He exists. Could there be better proof?

 

[Frozenwolf150]

Yeah, that thread was actually pretty good.

Although even scientists seem to agree regarding the similitude of Black holes which are often found at the center of galaxies and that of ocean eddies (An eddy is a circular current of water).

"Ocean Eddies Are Mathematically Equivalent to Black Holes", the research which was used to come to this determination was conducted by George Haller, Professor of Nonlinear Dynamics at ETH Zurich, and Francisco Beron-Vera, Research Professor of Oceanography at the University of Miami.
Link

Anyone notice a Similarity?

Ha ha, no, I meant you ought to know from experience what it's like to start a thread, only to find out the point you're trying to make can't be supported.

Carry on then.