Merged What the quran really says.

[A'isha]

If this god us unknowable, you can't really say he/she/it (HSI) isn't the monster from the Bible or Quran. The downside of the unknowable bit is the HSI could be a real dick and none of us know it.

Better the God you know than the God you don't, as it were?

 

[Craig4]

Better the God you know than the God you don't, as it were?

If we take Scorpions idea to the logical conclusion it's all the god you don't know so why even bother with it?

 

[Scorpion]

It is my view that the human race is evolving spiritually over the centuries.
For example we no longer put people to death for entertainment like the Romans did. We also have charities that many people donate to from their hard earned money, because they have compassion for the less fortunate.
We also no longer worship Gods of war. So it is arguable that we are spiritually more developed than our ancestors.

We have discarded many Gods of past civilizations, and it is my view the time has come to discard the God of wrath of the bible and quran. Because if we can show mercy and compassion, and we would not want to burn anyone for a minute, let alone for an eternity, then how can we be more merciful than the God that created us?

We can tell from looking into our own hearts that God cannot be the monster of religious texts, because our own feelings are as much of God as we can know. So we can have an expanded view of God based on our own emotions, that does not have to be constrained by limiting doctrines.

 

[A'isha]

We also have charities that many people donate to from their hard earned money, because they have compassion for the less fortunate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakat

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khums

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadaqah

 

[Craig4]

It is my view that the human race is evolving spiritually over the centuries.
For example we no longer put people to death for entertainment like the Romans did. We also have charities that many people donate to from their hard earned money, because they have compassion for the less fortunate.
We also no longer worship Gods of war. So it is arguable that we are spiritually more developed than our ancestors.

We have discarded many Gods of past civilizations, and it is my view the time has come to discard the God of wrath of the bible and quran. Because if we can show mercy and compassion, and we would not want to burn anyone for a minute, let alone for an eternity, then how can we be more merciful than the God that created us?

We can tell from looking into our own hearts that God cannot be the monster of religious texts, because our own feelings are as much of God as we can know. So we can have an expanded view of God based on our own emotions, that does not have to be constrained by limiting doctrines.

That is an evolution of laws, not spirituality. We've created institutions that are stronger than our leaders (in much if the world) and charged those institutions with protecting the rights of people. This is the result of practical social compacts not some warm and fuzzy spiritual energy. Do you really think that if gladiatorial combat returned people wouldn't watch, even if they didn't agree with it? We're getting better at running our societies not getting more spiritual.

 

[realpaladin]

It is my view that the human race is evolving spiritually over the centuries.
For example we no longer put people to death for entertainment like the Romans did.

Try Idi Amin.

We also have charities that many people donate to from their hard earned money, because they have compassion for the less fortunate.
We also no longer worship Gods of war. So it is arguable that we are spiritually more developed than our ancestors.

Well, some of us still worship Gods of death and war. Did I mention Hinduism yet?
Try looking up some of their gods.

We have discarded many Gods of past civilizations, and it is my view the time has come to discard the God of wrath of the bible and quran. Because if we can show mercy and compassion, and we would not want to burn anyone for a minute, let alone for an eternity, then how can we be more merciful than the God that created us?

Scientology tells us we are cruel because Xenu has dropped worried Thetans in a volcano and they cling to our souls.

We can tell from looking into our own hearts that God cannot be the monster of religious texts, because our own feelings are as much of God as we can know. So we can have an expanded view of God based on our own emotions, that does not have to be constrained by limiting doctrines.

If you believe in a god, then yes, you could.

 

[mikeb768]

I second that.

As I said, I suspect Scorpion of trying to rouse us into an anti Islam frenzy.

Scorpion, you are correct in that the quran is incorrect in a lot of things.

That is no surprise.

But what do you want to do with that knowledge?

Why do people continue to make this claim "the Quran is incorrect in a lot of things" without providing any actual support?

Many websites which make claims like:
1,000 errors in the Quran!
100,000 errors in the Quran!
1,000,000 errors in the Quran!
All seem to come up short after the claims are further evaluated.

Maybe if someone was to just provide "1" good error (try taking the quality over quantity approach)?

If you or others think you have managed to find a real error, then please share it with the rest of us? So far the only supported claim in this entire thread seems to be one that the Quran makes regarding the sun and moon having an orbit. Which is something which has over time clearly been determined to be true.

Until then...
http://s30.postimg.org/opgnna941/timeline.png

 

[Scorpion]

Mikeb768 You ask for one error.

The quran incorrectly copies the bible by saying that Noah lived 950 years, but this is considered to be a miss translation in the bible made by an early scribe. The quran exactly copies this mistake thereby proving the quran is plagiarism from the bible, and not a revelation from God.

Quran says Noah lived 950 years:

Quran 29:14:
Quote:

YUSUFALI: We (once) sent Noah to his people, and he tarried among them a thousand years less fifty: but the Deluge overwhelmed them while they (persisted in) sin.

PICKTHAL: And verily we sent Noah (as Our messenger) unto his folk, and he continued with them for a thousand years save fifty years; and the flood engulfed them, for they were wrong-doers.

SHAKIR: And certainly We sent Nuh to his people, so he remained among them a thousand years save fifty years. And the deluge overtook them, while they were unjust.

Genesis chapter 9

28 And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years.
29 And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died.

 

[Scorpion]

A second error in the quran is that it includes a story about Jesus childhood which is copied from an early book of fables.

The story in the quran concerning Jesus childhood, about an incident where he makes a clay bird and brings it to life is not a part of the Christian bible, and the original texts are considered apocryphal. They are regarded by Christian scholars as having been written in around 150AD, as propaganda by the early Christians, attempting to fill in the missing years of Jesus life.

The following are two verses in the quran that contain the references.
From the Yusuf Ali translation.

003.049 "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by God's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in
your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;

005.110 Then will God say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold ! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'

As can be seen the quran speaks of only one bird, and says Jesus breathed life into it. But the only historical text that contains such a story speaks of 12 birds, and they were brought to life by Jesus commanding them to "Go". Therefore the quran does not even get the facts of the original fictional document correct. Added to this the New Testament states that Jesus did his first miracle at a time he was around thirty years old. (John 2.11)

Here is the relevant text, translated from Greek and written in, The Apocryphal New Testament, by M.R.James, published by Oxford:Clarendon press, 1924.
The stories of Thomas the Israelite, (not St Thomas of the bible) the philosopher, concerning the works of the childhood of the Lord.

1. I, Thomas the Israelite, tell you, and all the brethren that are Gentile, the works of the childhood of our Lord Jesus Christ and his mighty deeds, and all that he did when he was born in our land.
2.1 This little child Jesus when he was five years old was playing at the ford of a brook: and he gathered together the water that flowed there into pools, and made them clean, and commanded them by his word alone.
2.2 Having made soft clay, he fashioned twelve sparrows. It was the Sabbath when he did these things. And there were also many other little children playing with him.
2.3. A certain Jew when he saw what Jesus did, playing upon the Sabbath day, departed and told his father Joseph: your child is at the brook, and he has taken clay and fashioned twelve little birds, and has polluted the Sabbath day.
2.4. Joseph came to the place and saw: and cried out to him, saying: Why do you do these things on the Sabbath, which it is not lawful to do? But Jesus clapped his hands together and cried out to the sparrows and said to them: Go! and the sparrows took their flight and went away chirping.
2.5 when the Jews saw it they were amazed, and departed and told their chief men that which they had seen Jesus do.

There is a reference to this story, and the flaws in it in the book.
The original sources of the quran. by William St Clair Tisdall.
This book is in the public domain and can be found on the Internet.

 

[marplots]

Scorpion, the method you have adopted seems to be, "If I can demonstrate one solid, factual error, then I have grounds to throw the whole thing out."

But, when I use your method on what you wrote (your first listed claim) and find that you have made an error, shouldn't I throw out everything else you claim as well?

Should I be expected to research all your claims, having found fault in the very first? At what point will the exercise end?

Here is an alternative for you. If you can find one single passage in the Quran that speaks to your heart, from Allah, then treasure that passage and hold it as your own - a gift from God. Instead of looking for the dirt, seek ye the ore and mine that.

One does not say of corn, "I cannot eat the roots, I cannot eat the stalk, I cannot eat the cob - this plant is worthless." That man will starve. Let me invite you to forgo the spiritual starvation that comes from your method of criticism.

 

[realpaladin]

Why do people continue to make this claim "the Quran is incorrect in a lot of things" without providing any actual support?

Many websites which make claims like:
1,000 errors in the Quran!
100,000 errors in the Quran!
1,000,000 errors in the Quran!
All seem to come up short after the claims are further evaluated.

Maybe if someone was to just provide "1" good error (try taking the quality over quantity approach)?

If you or others think you have managed to find a real error, then please share it with the rest of us? So far the only supported claim in this entire thread seems to be one that the Quran makes regarding the sun and moon having an orbit. Which is something which has over time clearly been determined to be true.

Until then...
http://s30.postimg.org/opgnna941/timeline.png

How about the claim that Isa (Jesus) existed?

Christians can't and since the story of Isa is a fork from the biblical Jesus the Quran can't.
Mind you, the one that makes a claim needs to provide proof.
So until that proof is provided I can quite safely say it is incorrect.

Or, to make a more blanket statement: It claims the existence of a deity.
As long as there is no proof, I can still say it is incorrect.

It is these holy scriptures that claim things, therefore they need to provide the proof.

So, unless you have an extensive list of rigorous proof for every claim made in the Quran (remember, it claims to be the truth) what you are asking is a silly reversal of the burden of proof.

 

[A'isha]

So, the proof that the Qur'an is wrong is both that it copies from the Bible, and that it doesn't copy from the Bible?

 

[mikeb768]

Mikeb768 You ask for one error.

The quran incorrectly copies the bible by saying that Noah lived 950 years, but this is considered to be a miss translation in the bible made by an early scribe. The quran exactly copies this mistake thereby proving the quran is plagiarism from the bible, and not a revelation from God.

Quran says Noah lived 950 years:

Quran 29:14:
Quote:

YUSUFALI: We (once) sent Noah to his people, and he tarried among them a thousand years less fifty: but the Deluge overwhelmed them while they (persisted in) sin.

PICKTHAL: And verily we sent Noah (as Our messenger) unto his folk, and he continued with them for a thousand years save fifty years; and the flood engulfed them, for they were wrong-doers.

SHAKIR: And certainly We sent Nuh to his people, so he remained among them a thousand years save fifty years. And the deluge overtook them, while they were unjust.

Genesis chapter 9

28 And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years.
29 And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died.

OK, so how are you able to prove this to be an error? We have no way to determine if Noah lived to be 9.5, 95, or 950 for that matter?

Also the idea that the Quran was copied from the Bible has long sense been debunked. Just one example can be seen with the person known as "Haman" who is mentioned in both the Bible and the Quran.

"The name Haman is first mentioned in the Biblical book of Esther, some 1,100 years after Pharaoh. The name is said to be Babylonian, not Egyptian. According to the book of Esther, Haman was a counsellor of Ahasuerus (the Biblical name of Xerxes) who was an enemy of the Jews. It has been suggested that Prophet Muhammad mixed Biblical stories, namely the Jewish myths of the Tower of Babel and the story of Esther and Moses into a single confused account when composing the Qur'an." This Biblical error was only exposed with the rediscovery of the Rosetta Stone in 1799.
Link

So the question for you is, why didn't Muhammad copy the mistakes which are found in the Bible as well?

 

[realpaladin]

Scorpion, the method you have adopted seems to be, "If I can demonstrate one solid, factual error, then I have grounds to throw the whole thing out."

But, when I use your method on what you wrote (your first listed claim) and find that you have made an error, shouldn't I throw out everything else you claim as well?

Should I be expected to research all your claims, having found fault in the very first? At what point will the exercise end?

Here is an alternative for you. If you can find one single passage in the Quran that speaks to your heart, from Allah, then treasure that passage and hold it as your own - a gift from God. Instead of looking for the dirt, seek ye the ore and mine that.

One does not say of corn, "I cannot eat the roots, I cannot eat the stalk, I cannot eat the cob - this plant is worthless." That man will starve. Let me invite you to forgo the spiritual starvation that comes from your method of criticism.

The sidetrack by Mikeb aside, the above is what I support.

Destroying is easy, constructing takes effort.

I would deftly be your opponent were you to defend your own claims on a deity, but that is because you can defend your claims in that case.

Too often I see a ganging up on someone. That might win the argument, but nobody gains any insight.

 

[realpaladin]

So, the proof that the Qur'an is wrong is both that it copies from the Bible, and that it doesn't copy from the Bible?

No. That it, just like the Bible, fails to prove it's claims.

I picked Isa because that is a well-known common case.

But my argument is that I can start out with the premisse that it contains errors unless there is a complete list of proofs for each claim it makes.

 

[Scorpion]

Mikeb768, since it is obvious nobody could ever live to be 950 years old, it is fairly certain that to claim Noah lived to 950 years is a mistake.

 

[mikeb768]

How about the claim that Isa (Jesus) existed?

Christians can't and since the story of Isa is a fork from the biblical Jesus the Quran can't.
Mind you, the one that makes a claim needs to provide proof.
So until that proof is provided I can quite safely say it is incorrect.

Or, to make a more blanket statement: It claims the existence of a deity.
As long as there is no proof, I can still say it is incorrect.

It is these holy scriptures that claim things, therefore they need to provide the proof.

So, unless you have an extensive list of rigorous proof for every claim made in the Quran (remember, it claims to be the truth) what you are asking is a silly reversal of the burden of proof.

How have you managed to disprove that Jesus existed?

 

[Lord Emsworth]

If you or others think you have managed to find a real error, then please share it with the rest of us?

The rest of us seems pretty convinced that there are clear mistakes. It's likely only you who isn't. And not just errors in the book itself, but also clear errors in your apologetic rubbish.

If you don't believe me, just start a poll -- you can do that with this board software.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Oh, and I know a clear mistake: That part* where Muhammed makes the Christian trinity out to consist of the Father, the Son, and Mary. Sure, it is phrased as a question, but that is irrelevant with certain types of question.

ETA: And what a blunder it is. The universe, modern science and stuff ... It's surely forgivable if ancient, religious people weren't so firm with that. But fundamental concepts of big religions? No, this is just unforgivable.


(*I hope that was the Quran, and not something else, whatever this stuff is called)

 

[Scorpion]

Also the idea that the Quran was copied from the Bible has long sense been debunked.

The quran is absolutely filled with brief references to bible characters, most of them obvious myths, stated as facts in the quran.

For example there is Noah's ark, and Jonah and the whale, and the drowning of Pharaohs army, all in the quran as history when they are obvious myths.

Here is a list of the bible characters in the quran. As can be seen the list is extensive. What is more most of the references are just name dropping with no details of the narratives in the bible.

Aaron, 4:163, 6:84, 7:122, 7:142, 7:150, 7:172, 10:75, 19:53, 20:30, 20:40, 20:90, 20:92, 21:48, 23:45, 25:35, 26:12, 26:48, 28:34, 37:114-120

Abraham, 2:124-129, 2:130-132, 2:135, 2:136, 2:140, 2:258, 2:260, 3:65, 3:67-68, 3:84, 3:95, 3:97, 4:54-55, 4:125, 4:163, 6:74-83, 6:161, 9:70, 9:114, 11:69-76, 12:6, 12:38, 14:35, 15:51-56, 16:120, 16:123, 19:41-49, 19:58, 21:51-73, 22:26, 22:43, 22:78, 26:69, 29:16, 29:25, 29:31, 33:7, 37:83-109, 38:45, 42:13, 43:26, 51:24-34, 53:37, 57:26, 60:4-5, 87:19

Adam, 2:31-32, 3:33, 5:27, 7:19-25, 17:61, 17:70, 18:50, 19:58, 20:115-123, 40:31, 41:13, 41:15

Cain and Abel, 5:27-31

David, 4:163, 5:78, 6:84, 17:55, 21:78, 21:79, 27:15-16, 34:10, 34:13, 38:17, 38:21-26, 38:30

Elijah, 6:85, 37:123-130

Isaac, 2:136, 2:140, 3:84, 4:163, 6:84, 11:71, 12:5, 12:6, 12:38, 14:39, 21:72, 37:112-113, 38:45

Ishmael, 2:136, 2:140, 3:84, 4:163, 6:86, 14:39, 21:85, 37:102-109, 38:48

Jacob (Israel), 3:84, 4:163, 6:84, 6:85, 11:71, 12:38, 12:68, 19:6, 19:49-50, 19:58, 21:72

Jesus, 4:163, 9:30, 9:31, 10:68, 19:30-34, 21:91, 23:50, 33:7, 61:6, 61:14

Job, 4:163, 6:84, 21:83, 38:41-44

John the Baptist, 3:38-40, 6:85, 6:86, 19:7-15, 21:90

Jonah, 4:163, 6:86, 10:98, 21:87, 37:139-148, 68:48

Joseph, 6:84, 12:4-101, 12:102, 40:34

Mary, 3:34-37, 3:42-47, 4:156-157, 4:171, 5:17, 5:46, 5:72, 5:78, 5:110, 5:112, 5:114, 5:116, 9:31, 19:16-39, 21:91, 23:50, 33:7, 43:57, 56:27, 61:6, 61:14, 66:12

Moses, 3:84, 6:84, 6:91, 7:103-162, 10:75-93, 11:96, 11:110, 14:5, 14:6, 14:8, 17:2, 17:101-104, 18:60-82, 19:51-53, 20:9-98, 21:48, 22:44, 23:45-49, 25:35, 26:10-66, 27:7-14, 28:3-43, 28:44, 28:48, 28:76, 29:39, 32:23, 33:7, 33:69, 37:114-120, 40:23-27, 40:53, 41:45, 42:13, 43:46-55, 44:17-36, 46:12, 46:30, 51:38-40, 53:36, 61:5, 79:14-25, 87:19

Noah, 3:33, 6:84, 7:59-64, 7:69, 9:70, 10:71, 11:25-33, 11:36-48, 11:89, 14:9, 17:3, 17:17, 19:58, 21:76, 22:42, 23:23-29, 25:37, 26:105-120, 29:14, 37:75-79, 38:12, 40:5, 40:31, 42:13, 50:12, 51:46, 53:52, 54:9, 57:26, 66:10

Pharaoh, 7:104-137, 8:52, 8:54, 10:75-90, 11:97, 14:6, 20:24, 20:43, 20:56, 20:60, 20:78, 23:46, 26:10-66, 27:12, 28:3-42, 29:39, 38:12, 40:24-46, 43:46-85, 44:17, 44:31, 50:13, 51:38-40, 54:41-42, 66:11, 69:9, 73:15-16, 79:17-25, 85:18

Saul, 2:247, 2:249

Solomon, 2:101, 4:163, 6:84, 21:78, 21:79, 21:81, 27:15-21, 34:12-14

Zachariah, 3:37-41, 6:85, 19:2-12