A'isha
Miss Schoolteacher
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Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
So, you believe something as unsupportable as what Muslims believe.
Polaris
Penultimate Amazing
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Want to make a cool million?
Scorpion
Illuminator
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One of the reasons I spend some of my time criticizing the quran is that as far as I am concerned it is a terrible indictment of God. It is filled with lurid descriptions of hell that I am quite sure are lies made up by Muhammad who stole the idea of hellfire from the bible, to scare people into fighting his wars for him. Believe it or not I am trying to liberate Muslims from the fear of such a monster God, and replace it with what would probably be described as a new age God of mercy. But I will have to start another thread about it, or take this one off topic.
A'isha
Miss Schoolteacher
Do you also want to liberate Christians from the fear of their God and the idea of hellfire promised in the Bible (and which Muhammad merely swiped in the first place)?
Why do you feel the need to replace one God with another?
Muhammad didn't need to make anything up. The Christians were there already and he took it from them, adding to it no doubt from the resources of his own imagination. The later Synoptics contain the doctrine of eternal punishment. Mark doesn't seem to. Roman Catholics were preaching "outside the church no salvation" until recently and many still do - with impunity as far as I can see. It is the most horrible doctrine, and Muslims and Christians alike should abandon it in shame. But Muhammad didn't invent it.
ETA
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Scorpion
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Because I think there probably is a God, but he is nothing like the monster decribed, either in the bible or quran. We can never comprehend God because he/she/it is an infinite eternal mind, and we are finite mortals. So we limit God to our level by trying to get a handle on him with flawed theologys.
It is time for us to get a better expanded view of God than the ancient one.
Scorpion
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Craig B , I agree with you that Muhammad took the idea of hellfire from the bible, then he added to it with lurid nonsense from his own imagination. Here is a sample.
Quran
22.19 These two antagonists dispute with each other about their Lord: But those who deny (their Lord),- for them will be cut out a garment of Fire: over their heads will be poured out boiling water.
22.20 With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as (their) skins.
22.21 In addition there will be maces of iron (to punish) them.
22.22 Every time they wish to get away therefrom, from anguish, they will be forced back therein, and (it will be said), "Taste ye the Penalty of Burning!"
4.56 Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for God is Exalted in Power, Wise.
Quran
22.19 These two antagonists dispute with each other about their Lord: But those who deny (their Lord),- for them will be cut out a garment of Fire: over their heads will be poured out boiling water.
22.20 With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as (their) skins.
22.21 In addition there will be maces of iron (to punish) them.
22.22 Every time they wish to get away therefrom, from anguish, they will be forced back therein, and (it will be said), "Taste ye the Penalty of Burning!"
4.56 Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for God is Exalted in Power, Wise.
A'isha
Miss Schoolteacher
So why are you focusing solely on the Qur'an?
And what on Earth made you think that you'd find Muslims to "liberate" at a US-based skeptics message board?
A'isha
Miss Schoolteacher
Ever seen a Bosch painting, Scorpion?
Scorpion
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The bible has already been trashed by experts, but there is not so much criticism of the quran. As for finding Muslims on this forum, I think there is one on this thread.
Scorpion
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I was a full time art student for three years in the 1960s and I have a poster of the garden of earthy delights on my wall.
A'isha
Miss Schoolteacher
I don't think your posts actually count as "criticism of the Qur'an". That would be more like these books.
And good luck with that.
If you like, I can suggest a few places where you can find a higher proportion of them for you to preach at.
Do you think Bosch came up with that imagery and subject matter independently of the Church's teachings on the matter?
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I don't think he got it from the Quran, at all events.
realpaladin
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According to the current value (the statement is on the site somewhere) it is more like 1.4 mio now.
realpaladin
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Good for you , but pointing to factual errors to do such is a bit silly.
I predict that whatever it is you believe in has it's goodly amount of factual errors.
realpaladin
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Start with Hinduism first; it has more followers and you'd need to clean up 1499 gods....
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
Okay, this god is unknowable and not the monster of the Bible or the Quran and you want the world to have an expanded view of he/she/it. Anyone else see a problem with all this?
Expanded unknowability is the best kind of unknowability in my opinion. Better than expanded monstrosity anyway.
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
If this god us unknowable, you can't really say he/she/it (HSI) isn't the monster from the Bible or Quran. The downside of the unknowable bit is the HSI could be a real dick and none of us know it. Having considered that, we can dismiss the idea that we can have an expanded view of this unknowable entity for the simple reason HSI is unknowable.