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Merged What the quran really says.

Scorpion said:
There is no reason for mystics to say the sun orbits the earth.
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Might be. When Nietzsche said, "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." I'm not going to demand to see these "monsters" or ask how the abyss can have eyes. There's a bit of poetic license on offer, just as in a religious text.

And do they really say "orbit?" I'm surprised. Or is this another one of those translation problems?
 
Nay_Sayer said:
Scorpion your thoughts on the '1,000 errors in the Quran' website
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I will take a look at it, but it is not my source as I have not read it.
I read the quran myself and drew my own conclusions. I use the Pickthall and Yusuf Ali translations, as I have both those in book form. But I also refer to all the known translations listed on the Internet, and I have the pdf files of the Marriful quran I downloaded too.
 
Scorpion said:
The Quran says the earth was created before the heavens (sura 2.29)
The Quran says the earth is flat
The Quran says the sun orbits the earth (sura 21.33 sura 36.40)
The Quran says the sun rests and is reset every dawn (sura 36.38)
The Quran says the heaven and earth were created in six thousand years
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I don't usually troll the JREF forums looking for threads which can be destroyed with a single post, but unfortunately for this one I had a few seconds to spare.

The Quran says the earth was created before the heavens?
[Quran 2:29] "It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Moreover His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge."
*So far we find no mention of your claim, unless the reference which you provided is incorrect?

The Quran says the earth is flat?
*If this is true then please tell us where. If you were unable to find a reference for this in the Quran then why did you bother to make the claim?

The Quran says the sun orbits the earth?
[Quran 21:33] "It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course."
*Not only does it not say what you claim, but it actually describes quite well what is taking place (well before the invention of the first telescope I might add).

[Quran 36:40] "It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day: Each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (according to Law)."
*Once again if you could please indicate the parts of the above sentence which you think best supports your claims?

The Quran says the sun rests and is reset every dawn?
[Quran 36:38] "And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing."
*So far you seem to be quite consistent, you make a claim, cite a source, we then go and take a look at the source which you have provided and nothings there. Go figure.

The Quran says the heaven and earth were created in six thousand years? *OK, where? And once again why post things which you can't seem to find support for? Not only is your flimsy argument (if it can even be called that) completely off base, but I have actually written an in depth post on fact that the fact that Quran correctly stated the ratio of the Earth's age to that of the age of the universe (as 1:3), some 1400 years ago. Link


Peace, and may God guide all of those who are sincere.
"O mankind, what has deceived you concerning your Lord, the Generous,"
 
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mikeb768 said:
I don't usually troll the JREF forums looking for threads which can be destroyed with a single post, but unfortunately for this one I had a few seconds to spare.

The Quran says the earth was created before the heavens?
[Quran 2:29] "It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Moreover His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge."
*So far we find no mention of your claim, unless the reference which you provided is incorrect?

The Quran says the earth is flat?
*If this is true then please tell us where. If you were unable to find a reference for this in the Quran then why did you bother to make the claim?

The Quran says the sun orbits the earth?
[Quran 21:33] "It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course."
*Not only does it not say what you claim, but it actually describes quite well what is taking place (well before the invention of the first telescope I might add).

[Quran 36:40] "It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day: Each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (according to Law)."
*Once again if you could please indicate the parts of the above sentence which you think best supports your claims?

The Quran says the sun rests and is reset every dawn?
[Quran 36:38] "And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing."
*So far you seem to be quite consistent, you make a claim, cite a source, we then go and take a look at the source which you have provided and nothings there. Go figure.

The Quran says the heaven and earth were created in six thousand years? *OK, where? And once again why post things which you can't seem to find support for? Not only is your flimsy argument (if it can even be called that) completely off base, but I have actually written an in depth post on fact that the fact that Quran correctly stated the ratio of the Earth's age to that of the age of the universe (as 1:3), some 1400 years ago. Link


Peace, and may God guide all of those who are sincere.
"O mankind, what has deceived you concerning your Lord, the Generous,"
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I can't deal with all that tonight as its time for bed. But I will deal with it tomorrow. In the meantime I see you are agreeing with me that the quran says the sun has an orbit? If so do not miss my footnote to the hadith in the OP where I make it clear that the quoted hadith explains verse 36.38 and says the sun will be sent back on its course, so it will rise in the west. This means the hadith is saying the sun orbits the earth. It cannot be saying the sun has an orbit in the galaxy as Imams deceitfully claim. Because if the sun was sent back on its course in the galaxy it would still rise in the east.

I know its complicated, and difficult to explain, but think about it.

As for the translation of verse 36.38 Pickthall says the following.

And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise.
 
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Scorpion, there is another way to approach this.
1) Ask a Muslim if they believe the Quran is true - I'll assume they say yes.
2) Ask them if they think the sun orbits the earth (or any of that other stuff).

Do you really think Muslims simultaneously believe both? And if they can manage to figure it out, ask them how they did it. Adopt that method and your concerns will vanish.

I never understood the method of non-believers trying to tell believers what their holy text means. I wouldn't accept that for Darwin if a Creationist did it. The bias taints the exercise.
 
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mikeb768 said:
The Quran says the heaven and earth were created in six thousand years? *OK, where? And once again why post things which you can't seem to find support for? Not only is your flimsy argument (if it can even be called that) completely off base, but I have actually written an in depth post on fact that the fact that Quran correctly stated the ratio of the Earth's age to that of the age of the universe (as 1:3), some 1400 years ago.
Click to expand...


Quran, sura 7.54 Lo! your Lord is Allah who created the heavens and the earth in six days.

Also at sura 10.3 and 11.7 and 25.59 and 50.38 and 57.4

The Quran then goes on to say one of Gods days is as a thousand years to us.

Quran, sura 22.47 A day in the sight of the Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning.

These verses imply the heaven and earth were created in six thousand years.
What is more they are directly stolen from the bible. Proving that the source of much of the quran is the bible, and the quran is not from God.

Bible, Genesis 1.31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Bible 2Peter 3.8 But beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is as with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
 
Scorpion said:
Quran, sura 7.54 Lo! your Lord is Allah who created the heavens and the earth in six days.

Also at sura 10.3 and 11.7 and 25.59 and 50.38 and 57.4

The Quran then goes on to say one of Gods days is as a thousand years to us.

Quran, sura 22.47 A day in the sight of the Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning.

These verses imply the heaven and earth were created in six thousand years.
What is more they are directly stolen from the bible. Proving that the source of much of the quran is the bible, and the quran is not from God. Bible, Genesis 1.31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Bible 2Peter 3.8 But beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is as with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
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:sdl:
 
Did we move away from the claim in the thread title: "What the Quran really says?"

Shouldn't it more properly be something like, "How I Interpret the Quran?" Because, as far as I can tell, that's what's actually on offer in this thread.
 
Ok, so, let's assume the Quran is full of factual errors. Now what?

I mentioned in another thread that I have not found a single religious bible/quran/whathaveyouholyscripture that is correct with the world as we experience it.

The muslems are not unique in this. Have you ever read what Mormons believe? Or Scientology? Or, if you want to really have a jawdrop, Hindu's? Or Buddhists?

It makes sense to defend against people stating actively that the claims in these scriptures are true and that we experience a world that is incorrect.

It makes no sense to try and find something wrong in books written aeons ago and then ask unsuspecting believers to defend those errors.

Imams, Rabbi's, Priests, Yogi's, Politicians... they all do the same thing everybody does:
Being a poor old schmuck, shlepping through life, trying to have a better day than yesterday.
(I am not jewish, I just like some of their words with attached connotations)
 
I'm less concerned about people who state that the scientific claims in religious scriptures are true, than I am about people who state that religious scripture justifies discrimination and violence against other groups. Which causes more harm? Someone who believes in whacko science? Or someone who straps on explosives and ball bearings and runs into a crowd of innocent people?
 
Scorpion said:
I can't deal with all that tonight as its time for bed. But I will deal with it tomorrow. In the meantime I see you are agreeing with me that the quran says the sun has an orbit?
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Well... It does actually. ...
 
Frozenwolf150 said:
I'm less concerned about people who state that the scientific claims in religious scriptures are true, than I am about people who state that religious scripture justifies discrimination and violence against other groups. Which causes more harm? Someone who believes in whacko science? Or someone who straps on explosives and ball bearings and runs into a crowd of innocent people?
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I don't see a clear answer to that question actually.

Werner von Braun did real science and managed to do more damage than a couple of nutjobs flying planes in two towers full of people.
(Sorry for the Godwin)

Oppenheimer and team did real science and managed to do four times the damage Von Braun did as measured in death toll.

I am just trying to say that the motivation is not a direct measure to the damage people do.
And that motivation can come from people that assume they think levelheaded thoughts just as much as people that think they are defending their religious beliefs.

But that was not what this thread is about (although I suspect a hidden agenda).

The OP states that the Quran is not a match for Newton's Principia... and my response to that is 'You are correct, now what?'
 
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