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Merged What the quran really says.

Scorpion said:
DC

Muslims think the entire quran is the absolute words of God sent down as dictation throught the angel Gabriel. Therefore to show the quran says the sun orbits the earth would utterly destroy this, and leave muslims with no ground to stand on.
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Some Christians think the entire bible is the absolute words of God. Therefore to show the bible says the earth was created in six days would utterly destroy this, and leave those christians with no ground to stand on.
 
Scorpion said:
DC

Muslims think the entire quran is the absolute words of God sent down as dictation throught the angel Gabriel. Therefore to show the quran says the sun orbits the earth would utterly destroy this, and leave muslims with no ground to stand on.
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And many US christian think the same for the bible and that the world is 6600 year old.

So what ?

And what's with all those quran threads ? Are you pursuying somet hing ? IMHO those can both be merged.
 
Scorpion said:
Muslims think the entire quran is the absolute words of God sent down as dictation throught the angel Gabriel. Therefore to show the quran says the sun orbits the earth would utterly destroy this, and leave muslims with no ground to stand on.
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Really? All of the Muslims you have spoken to are this fundamentalist? This has not been my experience.

Ranb
 
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Scorpion said:
DC

Muslims think the entire quran is the absolute words of God sent down as dictation throught the angel Gabriel. Therefore to show the quran says the sun orbits the earth would utterly destroy this, and leave muslims with no ground to stand on.
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fundies also think the bible is the perfect words of their god. and they are still around, despite them having no ground to stand on. deluded people don't need no grand to stand on. they seem to be floating, after all, gravity is just a theory :D
 
Scorpion said:
DC

Muslims think the entire quran is the absolute words of God sent down as dictation throught the angel Gabriel. Therefore to show the quran says the sun orbits the earth would utterly destroy this, and leave muslims with no ground to stand on.
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Uh... Not that I'm a fan of Islam but have you talked all the Muslims to figure out what they believe. There's like a billion of them so it doesn't seem that authoritative to say what Muslims believe unless you ask all of them.

Out of curiosity, do you have any religious beliefs?
 
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DC said:
yeah muslim countries would collapse like Vatican city did when they admited Adam and Eve are merely a metaphor ...
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Somebody should have told Pius XII that Adam is a metaphor. This is from Humani generis an encyclical published in 1950.
37 ... Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.
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I am continually perplexed by the constant conflation between "the literal word of God" and "must therefore be read literally".

Muslims do believe that the Qur'an is the "literal word of God", in that the actual specific text is exactly as spoken by God through the angel Gabriel (as opposed to "inspiring" a human who then wrote the text using his own words). That does not mean, however, that that specific text is to be read literally. Indeed, metaphor, idiom, simile, and poetic language are are a part of the Qur'an, and have been features of tafsir since pretty much the very beginning.

In other words, Muslims believe that where Q 33:45-46 says, "O Prophet! Truly We have sent thee as a Witness, a Bearer of Glad Tidings, and Warner, And as one who invites to Allah's (grace) by His leave, and as a lamp spreading light," God via Gabriel literally said the exact verbatim words in Arabic "Yāayyuhā l-nabiyu innā arsalnāka shāhidan wamubashiran wanadhīran wadāʿiyan ilā l-lahi bi-idh'nihi wasirājan munīran", but Muslims don't believe that Muhammad is literally a glass and metal oil-fueled manufactured light-giving object despite the Qur'an "literal" description of him as a sirājan munīran ("illuminating lamp").
 
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Scorpion said:
DC

Muslims think the entire quran is the absolute words of God sent down as dictation throught the angel Gabriel. Therefore to show the quran says the sun orbits the earth would utterly destroy this, and leave muslims with no ground to stand on.
Click to expand...

In the first place, you are rather over-reaching. Not all Muslims believe that nonsense about the Koran being some sort of literal word of God.

In the second place, scientific facts seldom affect fanatics regardless of their religion.
 
Q 33:45-46 says, ("O Prophet! Truly We have sent thee as a Witness, a Bearer of Glad Tidings, and Warner, And as one who invites to Allah's (grace) by His leave, and as a lamp spreading light,")
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OMG Muhammad was with Warners?

I thought he had a contract with Paramount...
 
A'isha said:
Well, the Paramount would not come to Muhammad, so Muhammad had to go to the Paramount.
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I heard it was the other way round: If Muhammad won't come to the Paramount, then bring the Paramount to Muhammad.

That was some contract!

I doubt Jack Warner would have been on-board...
 
Scorpion said:
The Quran says the earth was created before the heavens (sura 2.29)
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What translation are you using? I only checked your first allegation, but I found this:
29. He it is Who created for you all that is on earth. Then He Istawa (rose over) towards the heaven and made them seven heavens and He is the All-Knower of everything.
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That's sura 2.29 and it doesn't say what you say it says. Do you read Arabic? I don't, so I'm stuck relying on translations. But as far as I can tell, that doesn't say the earth was created before the heavens.

I don't want to check all the other stuff you posted, you might want to.

Here's the translation I found: http://www.dar-us-salam.com/TheNobleQuran/index.html
 
Personally, I'm entertained by the fact that he claims both that all Muslims read the Qur'an absolutely literally, and that "Muslim Imams conspire to deceive the population" by...interpreting the Qur'an non-literally!
 
A'isha said:
Personally, I'm entertained by the fact that he claims both that all Muslims read the Qur'an absolutely literally, and that "Muslim Imams conspire to deceive the population" by...interpreting the Qur'an non-literally!
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It's not easy to insult a quarter of the world's population, unless of course, you go for a gender slur.
 
marplots said:
What translation are you using? I only checked your first allegation, but I found this:


That's sura 2.29 and it doesn't say what you say it says. Do you read Arabic? I don't, so I'm stuck relying on translations. But as far as I can tell, that doesn't say the earth was created before the heavens.

I don't want to check all the other stuff you posted, you might want to.

Here's the translation I found: http://www.dar-us-salam.com/TheNobleQuran/index.html
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I took my view from a consensus of the following translations.

Quran sura 2.29

M. M. Pickthall- He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens. And He is knower of all things.

Shakir- He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth, and He directed Himself to the heaven, so He made them complete seven heavens, and He knows all things.

Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985) It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Moreover His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge.

Yusuf Ali (Orig. 1938) It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Moreover His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge.

Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar- It is He Who created for you all that is in and on the earth. Again, He turned His attention to the heaven. Then, He shaped them into seven heavens. And He is Knowing of everything.

Wahiduddin Khan- It is He who created everything on the earth for you: then He turned towards heaven and fashioned it into the seven heavens. He has knowledge of all things.

T.B.Irving- He is the One Who has created everything that is on earth for you; then He soared up to Heaven and perfected it as seven heavens. He is Aware of everything!

[Al-Muntakhab]- He is it Who created for you all that is on earth, then applied He Himself to. the immeasurable expanse of the realm and set it in order and arranged it in seven heavens, and He is AL-'Alim who has infinite knowledge of all things.

[The Monotheist Group]- He is the One who created for you all that is on Earth, then He attend to the universe and made it seven universes, and He is aware of all things.

Abdel Haleem- It was He who created all that is on the earth for you, then turned to the sky and made the seven heavens; it is He who has knowledge of all things.

Abdul Majid Daryabadi- He it is who created for you all that is on the earth, thereafter He turned to the heaven, and formed them seven heavens. And He is of everything the Knower.

Ahmed Ali- He made for you all that lies within the earth, then turning to the firmament He proportioned several skies: He has knowledge of everything.

Aisha Bewley- It is He who created everything on the earth for you and then directed His attention up to heaven and arranged it into seven regular heavens. He has knowledge of all things.

Ali Ünal - It is He Who (prepared the earth for your life before He gave you life, and) created all that is in the world for you (in order to create you – the human species – and make the earth suitable for your life); then He directed (His Knowledge, Will, Power, and Favor) to the heaven, and formed it into seven heavens. He has full knowledge of everything.

Ali Quli Qara'i- It is He who created for you all that is in the earth, then He turned to the heaven, and fashioned it into seven heavens, and He has knowledge of all things.

Hamid S. Aziz - It is He who created for you all that is in the earth, and He designed the heavens also and fashioned (ordered) them as seven heavens; and He knows all things.

Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali- He is (The One) Who created for you whatever is in the earth altogether. Thereafter He leveled Himself (How He did so is beyond human understanding stauling) to the heaven; so He leveled them seven heavens, and He is Ever-Knowing of everything.

Muhammad Sarwar- It is He who created everything on earth for you. Then, directing His order towards the realm above, He turned it into seven heavens. He has knowledge of all things.

Muhammad Taqi Usmani- It is He who created for you all that the earth contains; then He turned to the heavens and made them seven skies — and He is the knower of all things.

Shabbir Ahmed- He it is Who has created for you all that is in the earth. And He has applied His Design to the Sky and fashioned it as seven heavens. ((11:7), (53:31), (57:1-2)). And He alone is Knower of all things.

Syed Vickar Ahamed- It is He Who has created all things for you that are on earth; In addition, His plans called for the heavens, and He gave Order and Perfection to the seven skies: And of all things He is All Knowing (Aleem).

Umm Muhammad - It is He who created for you all of that which is on the earth. Then He directed Himself to the heaven, [His being above all creation], and made them seven heavens, and He is Knowing of all things.

Farook Malik- It is He Who has created for you all that there is in the earth; and directed Himself towards the sky and fashioned it into seven heavens. He has perfect knowledge of everything.

Dr. Munir Munshey- He it is, Who created for you every single thing that exists on earth. Then, He turned to the heavens. He evened and fashioned them into seven heavens. He is fully aware of every single thing!

Dr. Mohammad Tahir-ul-Qadri He is the One Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then He turned towards the higher regions (of the universe) and perfected them into seven heavenly firmaments. And He has full knowledge of everything.

Dr. Kamal Omar- He It is Who created, in your interest, all that is on the earth. Then He paid full attention to the sky, so He perfected them into many heavens and He is perfectly aware of every thing.

Talal A. Itani- It is He who created for you everything on earth, then turned to the heaven, and made them seven heavens. And He is aware of all things.

Bilal Muhammad- It is He Who has created for you all things that are on earth, and His design comprehends the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments, and He has perfect knowledge of all thing.

Maududi- He it is Who created for you all that there is on the Earth; He then turned to the sky and ordered it into seven heavens. And He has full knowledge of everything.

[The Monotheist Group] (2013 Edition)- He is the One who has created for you all that is on the earth, then He attended to the heaven and has made it seven heavens, and He is aware of all things.

Bijan Moeinian- God is the one Who created for you everything on earth. Then He directed His attention to the heaven and perfected seven universes therein; and He is fully aware of everything.

Faridul Haque- It is He Who created for you all that is in the earth; then He inclined towards the heaven, therefore fashioning it as proper seven heavens; and He knows everything.

Hasan Al-Fatih Qaribullah- He created for you all that is in the earth, then, He willed to the heaven, and leveled them seven heavens. He has knowledge of all things.

Maulana Muhammad Ali- He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. And He directed Himself to the heaven, so He made them complete seven heavens; and He is Knower of all things.

Muhammad Ahmed - Samira- He (is), who created for you what (is) in the land/earth/Planet Earth all together/wholly , then He tended to the sky/space, so He straightened them (into) seven skies/space(s), and He is with every thing knowledgeable.

Sher Ali- HE it is WHO created for you all that is in the earth; then HE turned towards the heavens, and HE perfected them as seven heavens; and HE has perfect knowledge of all things.

Rashad Khalifa- He is the One who created for you everything on earth, then turned to the sky and perfected seven universes therein, and He is fully aware of all things.

Ahmed Raza Khan- (Barelvi) It is He Who created for you all that is in the earth; then He inclined towards the heaven, therefore fashioning it as proper seven heavens; and He knows everything.

Amatul Rahman Omar- It is He Who created for your benefit all that is in the earth. Moreover He turned Himself towards the space and fashioned seven heavens perfect (- denoting the multiplicity of cosmic system). He has full knowledge of all things.

Muhsin Khan & Muhammad al-Hilali- He it is Who created for you all that is on earth. Then He Istawa (rose over) towards the heaven and made them seven heavens and He is the All-Knower of everything.


Arthur John Arberry- It is He who created for you all that is in the earth, then He lifted Himself to heaven and levelled them seven heavens; and He has knowledge of everything.

Edward Henry Palmer- It is He who created for you all that is in the earth, then he made for the heavens and fashioned them seven heavens; and He knows all things.

George Sale- It is He who hath created for you whatsoever is on earth, and then set his mind to the creation of heaven, and formed it into seven heavens; He knoweth all things.

John Medows Rodwell- He it is who created for you all that is on Earth, then proceeded to the Heaven, and into seven Heavens did He fashion it: and He knoweth all things.

N J Dawood- (draft) He created for you all that the earth contains; then, ascending to the sky, He fashioned it into seven heavens. He has knowledge of all things.

Sayyid Qutb- It is He who created for you all that is on earth. He then turned to heaven and fashioned it into seven heavens. He has knowledge of all things.

Sayyed Abbas Sadr-Ameli- It is He Who created for you all that is in the earth; then turned (His Will) to heaven and fashioned it into seven heavens, for He is All-Knowing of all things.
 
Well, if Allah created the Earth and then turned/"rose up to" the heaven, the heaven must have already been there, right?

Logic is your friend in these matters.

ETA: In essence, you are creating your own translation with this: "The Quran says the earth was created before the heavens (sura 2.29)"
You don't have to do that. Just quote the darn book.
 
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Scorpion said:
I took my view from a consensus of the following translations.

Quran sura 2.29

M. M. Pickthall- He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens. And He is knower of all things.

Shakir- He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth, and He directed Himself to the heaven, so He made them complete seven heavens, and He knows all things.

Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985) It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Moreover His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge.

Yusuf Ali (Orig. 1938) It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Moreover His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge.

Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar- It is He Who created for you all that is in and on the earth. Again, He turned His attention to the heaven. Then, He shaped them into seven heavens. And He is Knowing of everything.

Wahiduddin Khan- It is He who created everything on the earth for you: then He turned towards heaven and fashioned it into the seven heavens. He has knowledge of all things.

T.B.Irving- He is the One Who has created everything that is on earth for you; then He soared up to Heaven and perfected it as seven heavens. He is Aware of everything!

[Al-Muntakhab]- He is it Who created for you all that is on earth, then applied He Himself to. the immeasurable expanse of the realm and set it in order and arranged it in seven heavens, and He is AL-'Alim who has infinite knowledge of all things.

[The Monotheist Group]- He is the One who created for you all that is on Earth, then He attend to the universe and made it seven universes, and He is aware of all things.

Abdel Haleem- It was He who created all that is on the earth for you, then turned to the sky and made the seven heavens; it is He who has knowledge of all things.

Abdul Majid Daryabadi- He it is who created for you all that is on the earth, thereafter He turned to the heaven, and formed them seven heavens. And He is of everything the Knower.

Ahmed Ali- He made for you all that lies within the earth, then turning to the firmament He proportioned several skies: He has knowledge of everything.

Aisha Bewley- It is He who created everything on the earth for you and then directed His attention up to heaven and arranged it into seven regular heavens. He has knowledge of all things.

Ali Ünal - It is He Who (prepared the earth for your life before He gave you life, and) created all that is in the world for you (in order to create you – the human species – and make the earth suitable for your life); then He directed (His Knowledge, Will, Power, and Favor) to the heaven, and formed it into seven heavens. He has full knowledge of everything.

Ali Quli Qara'i- It is He who created for you all that is in the earth, then He turned to the heaven, and fashioned it into seven heavens, and He has knowledge of all things.

Hamid S. Aziz - It is He who created for you all that is in the earth, and He designed the heavens also and fashioned (ordered) them as seven heavens; and He knows all things.

Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali- He is (The One) Who created for you whatever is in the earth altogether. Thereafter He leveled Himself (How He did so is beyond human understanding stauling) to the heaven; so He leveled them seven heavens, and He is Ever-Knowing of everything.

Muhammad Sarwar- It is He who created everything on earth for you. Then, directing His order towards the realm above, He turned it into seven heavens. He has knowledge of all things.

Muhammad Taqi Usmani- It is He who created for you all that the earth contains; then He turned to the heavens and made them seven skies — and He is the knower of all things.

Shabbir Ahmed- He it is Who has created for you all that is in the earth. And He has applied His Design to the Sky and fashioned it as seven heavens. ((11:7), (53:31), (57:1-2)). And He alone is Knower of all things.

Syed Vickar Ahamed- It is He Who has created all things for you that are on earth; In addition, His plans called for the heavens, and He gave Order and Perfection to the seven skies: And of all things He is All Knowing (Aleem).

Umm Muhammad - It is He who created for you all of that which is on the earth. Then He directed Himself to the heaven, [His being above all creation], and made them seven heavens, and He is Knowing of all things.

Farook Malik- It is He Who has created for you all that there is in the earth; and directed Himself towards the sky and fashioned it into seven heavens. He has perfect knowledge of everything.

Dr. Munir Munshey- He it is, Who created for you every single thing that exists on earth. Then, He turned to the heavens. He evened and fashioned them into seven heavens. He is fully aware of every single thing!

Dr. Mohammad Tahir-ul-Qadri He is the One Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then He turned towards the higher regions (of the universe) and perfected them into seven heavenly firmaments. And He has full knowledge of everything.

Dr. Kamal Omar- He It is Who created, in your interest, all that is on the earth. Then He paid full attention to the sky, so He perfected them into many heavens and He is perfectly aware of every thing.

Talal A. Itani- It is He who created for you everything on earth, then turned to the heaven, and made them seven heavens. And He is aware of all things.

Bilal Muhammad- It is He Who has created for you all things that are on earth, and His design comprehends the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments, and He has perfect knowledge of all thing.

Maududi- He it is Who created for you all that there is on the Earth; He then turned to the sky and ordered it into seven heavens. And He has full knowledge of everything.

[The Monotheist Group] (2013 Edition)- He is the One who has created for you all that is on the earth, then He attended to the heaven and has made it seven heavens, and He is aware of all things.

Bijan Moeinian- God is the one Who created for you everything on earth. Then He directed His attention to the heaven and perfected seven universes therein; and He is fully aware of everything.

Faridul Haque- It is He Who created for you all that is in the earth; then He inclined towards the heaven, therefore fashioning it as proper seven heavens; and He knows everything.

Hasan Al-Fatih Qaribullah- He created for you all that is in the earth, then, He willed to the heaven, and leveled them seven heavens. He has knowledge of all things.

Maulana Muhammad Ali- He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. And He directed Himself to the heaven, so He made them complete seven heavens; and He is Knower of all things.

Muhammad Ahmed - Samira- He (is), who created for you what (is) in the land/earth/Planet Earth all together/wholly , then He tended to the sky/space, so He straightened them (into) seven skies/space(s), and He is with every thing knowledgeable.

Sher Ali- HE it is WHO created for you all that is in the earth; then HE turned towards the heavens, and HE perfected them as seven heavens; and HE has perfect knowledge of all things.

Rashad Khalifa- He is the One who created for you everything on earth, then turned to the sky and perfected seven universes therein, and He is fully aware of all things.

Ahmed Raza Khan- (Barelvi) It is He Who created for you all that is in the earth; then He inclined towards the heaven, therefore fashioning it as proper seven heavens; and He knows everything.

Amatul Rahman Omar- It is He Who created for your benefit all that is in the earth. Moreover He turned Himself towards the space and fashioned seven heavens perfect (- denoting the multiplicity of cosmic system). He has full knowledge of all things.

Muhsin Khan & Muhammad al-Hilali- He it is Who created for you all that is on earth. Then He Istawa (rose over) towards the heaven and made them seven heavens and He is the All-Knower of everything.


Arthur John Arberry- It is He who created for you all that is in the earth, then He lifted Himself to heaven and levelled them seven heavens; and He has knowledge of everything.

Edward Henry Palmer- It is He who created for you all that is in the earth, then he made for the heavens and fashioned them seven heavens; and He knows all things.

George Sale- It is He who hath created for you whatsoever is on earth, and then set his mind to the creation of heaven, and formed it into seven heavens; He knoweth all things.

John Medows Rodwell- He it is who created for you all that is on Earth, then proceeded to the Heaven, and into seven Heavens did He fashion it: and He knoweth all things.

N J Dawood- (draft) He created for you all that the earth contains; then, ascending to the sky, He fashioned it into seven heavens. He has knowledge of all things.

Sayyid Qutb- It is He who created for you all that is on earth. He then turned to heaven and fashioned it into seven heavens. He has knowledge of all things.

Sayyed Abbas Sadr-Ameli- It is He Who created for you all that is in the earth; then turned (His Will) to heaven and fashioned it into seven heavens, for He is All-Knowing of all things.
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No you didn't.

That's just a list you copy/pasted.

Do you have a Holy Book?

If so, is it perfect?
 
By the way, you know this is mysticism and not an astronomy text, right?
 
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