JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends II

[Regnad Kcin]

You people are in a minority in America. Most people think others were involved in the JFK murder.

This begs for a snarky response, but I'm feeling generous today. So...

100% percent of the population could "believe" something. But it doesn't then follow that the thing they believe is true. Do you need an example, or are you able to grasp the flaw in your thinking as-is?

 

[Garrison]

There is a photo of Hickey holding a rifle in a following car, unless I'm seeing things and having strange beliefs. I think Hickey should have been closely questioned about that instead of just being fixated on Oswald.

And was that photo taken before or after Kennedy was shot?

You people are in a minority in America. Most people think others were involved in the JFK murder.

And as has been pointed out what people think or believe is meaningless without some real evidence to support it.

Oliver Stone seems to have made an interesting JFK movie which I have never seen. That's a bit surprising for Hollywood, which mostly promotes the glamour of the German and American Fourth Reich with these naff James Bond movies, as though the EU province of the UK was still an important country.

Hollywood has been in love with the conspiracy for years, Stone's movie is hardly the only one on the subject though it is one of the most misleading and inaccurate. The rest of your paragraph is just twaddle.

What our newspapers and little TV news stations gain in good humor and absence of scurrility they may lose in refraining from useful and pointed criticism. They all seem to think that people with senile dementia are fit for work. I don't think they know how the other half lives, or are in touch with all classes.

More twaddle

The CIA has immunity from criticism. If the CIA bumped off the President then it's a shocking crime and they should be made to pay. It's just like there is no gun control in America.

So if I go search for criticism of the CIA I won't find any? would you be prepared to put a bet on that?

 

[Belz...]

The only constant in their shifting arguments is Oswald must be framed. There is no rhyme or reason in their arguments other than that.

The only constant is their conclusion.

 

[Belz...]

I don't accept your rationale and my acceptance is not necessary to move this forward just as your acceptance of my rationale is not needed.

Translation: "I don't have any evidence or reasoning. I just want there to be a conspiracy. Sounds exciting."

 

[bynmdsue]

There is a photo of Hickey holding a rifle in a following car, unless I'm seeing things and having strange beliefs. I think Hickey should have been closely questioned about that instead of just being fixated on Oswald.

You people are in a minority in America. Most people think others were involved in the JFK murder.

What else can be seen in that photo? Clint Hill laying on the trunk of the limo. That places it after the headshot.

The photos taken at the time of the headshot do not show Hickey with the rifle.

Yes, the History Channel ran a program recently with the results of all sorts of polling showing that 71% of Americans believe there was a conspiracy in the president's death. It also showed that 76% were not aware that Oswald attempted to defect to the USSR. So folks are simply ignorant of the facts of the case.

 

[I Ratant]

The original issue ammo for the 15/16 platform was a 55 grain FMJ, and the projectile didn't exactly fragment, in tissue it breaks in half at the cannelure.

Some of the lead core can break off, but the "snowstorm effect" is not an observed effect in that standard FMJ projectile.

The very earliest 15's had rifling of 1 in 14, later changed to 1 in 12.

The "tumbling" effect referenced is better described as yaw, and it's an observed projectile characteristic in most of the reduced power assault rifle calibers, including the combloc 7.62 x 39 and 5.45 x 39.

Soft point rounds are a different story, and as the jacket peels away from the lead core, the core can fragmentl and spread through the wound channel.

.
When I shooting high-powered handguns, the exposed tips on some of the bullets would let the jacket expand and slow down on contact with the ground at the shallow angles the Creedmore position had. I could find the relatively complete expanded jackets downrange from the point where the intact bullet hit the ground, but the cores would long gone way over thataway, and they're shriek while doing it!

 

[bynmdsue]

The CIA has immunity from criticism. If the CIA bumped off the President then it's a shocking crime and they should be made to pay. It's just like there is no gun control in America.

Rockefeller Commission? Church Committee? Either of those ring a bell? Or is it that there's not no criticism just criticism that you're not aware of?

And no gun control? Thanks to Oswald we can't buy guns through the mail anymore.

 

[JayUtah]

100% percent of the population could "believe" something. But it doesn't then follow that the thing they believe is true. Do you need an example, or are you able to grasp the flaw in your thinking as-is?

It's not a very reliable finding anyway based on the actual wording of the question. The question asks the respondent to choose between one specific outcome and a very open-ended (infinitely so, in fact) set of hypothetical possibilities. "Do you believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone, or do you believe others were involved?"

That last bit opens up a huge realm of dissimilar hypotheses. For example, "I believe Oswald was secretly working for the CIA," is a vastly different hypothesis than, "Oswald was set up by the Mafia to make the hit." They are incompatible, and they imply vastly different interpretations of the historical data. Either one of those would be epistemologically equivalent to "Oswald acted alone and killed Kennedy," but to lump all of not-X into a single category for purposes of aggregating the vote is improper.

Further, the question skews the results because only one of the alternatives asks the respondent to make a decision. "Others may have been involved" is way too open-ended and presents a "safe" non-committal scenario. People can choose that as a rationally satisfying answer without committing to any conspiracy theory, or indeed even knowing any of the evidence.

Conspiracy theorists beg the question that these oft-reported results are informed opinions, reliably reported. They are neither.

 

[Tomtomkent]

I'm a bit amazed that Oliver Stone was ever able to make his JFK movie. In the 1950's many left-leaning directors and writers and actors had to come to the UK from Hollywood.

I guess making the film four decades later when the reasons that many left hollywood were not only over but largely recognised as a shameful part of American history probably helped.

It's still almost impossible to get a job in Hollywood now, or on to a little TV news channel, unless you support the Fourth Reich and you don't complain about CIA drug smuggling, and also Murdoch likes you.

Yes. That must be why there are so many films with contrary messages to those you describe, both factual and fiction, out there...

 

[JayUtah]

In the 1950's...

Irrelevant; the film wasn't made then.

It's still almost impossible to get a job in Hollywood now, or on to a little TV news channel, unless you support the Fourth Reich and you don't complain about CIA drug smuggling, and also Murdoch likes you.

I have managed to work just fine in Hollywood without subscribing to any of this speculative nonsense.

I honestly don't know for certain if this Clay Shaw person was involved...

He wasn't.

I suspect there was a Nazi takeover of the CIA because of the cold war...

Same old speculation you've been peddling for dozens of pages, without substantiation.

I think it's a good thing that the matter can still be discussed on the internet It's just that hardly anybody bothers to read that information, except for a few interested people, or to get it right. They prefer watching Fox News.

No, your critics are not invariably ill-informed arch-conservatives. If you claim nobody bothers to read the information, that pretty much confirms my evaluation of your poll results. You can't argue that Americans are poorly informed about the Kennedy assassination, and simultaneously that they all believe the right thing about it.

There was a recent miscarriage of justice case in the UK...

Irrelevant Tangent #74.

 

[bynmdsue]

I'm a bit amazed that Oliver Stone was ever able to make his JFK movie. In the 1950's many left-leaning directors and writers and actors had to come to the UK from Hollywood. It's still almost impossible to get a job in Hollywood now, or on to a little TV news channel, unless you support the Fourth Reich and you don't complain about CIA drug smuggling, and also Murdoch likes you.

...the Hell? Here's a major Hollywood movie with big name stars about that very thing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_America_(film) From 1990 even, only one year previous to Stone's JFK.

 

[patchbunny]

The original issue ammo for the 15/16 platform was a 55 grain FMJ, and the projectile didn't exactly fragment, in tissue it breaks in half at the cannelure.

Actually, both the older M195 and the current M855 will fragment into multiple pieces, decreasing in number until you get around 2400 fps. Below that and it tends to remain intact. I refer you to the section titled "Wounding Effects of the U.S. Military M193 (M16A1) and M855 (M16A2) Bullet Cartridges" of this page for more of a write-up.

I also direct interested parties to the image below. It's reproduced from Fackler, Martin L.: "Wounding Patterns of Military Rifle Bullets." International Defense Review 1/1989, 59-64.

Sidetrack over. Back to the stupidity of Oliver Stone!

 

[Robrob]

...the Hell? Here's a major Hollywood movie with big name stars about that very thing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_America_(film) From 1990 even, only one year previous to Stone's JFK.

I love how CT claim things like "it's impossible to get a movie made about subject X" when we are discussing a movie about subject "X."

 

[Dcdrac]

And a far few non Americans are reasonably well informed about it too and not known for taking Fox news seriosuly

Irrelevant; the film wasn't made then.



I have managed to work just fine in Hollywood without subscribing to any of this speculative nonsense.



He wasn't.



Same old speculation you've been peddling for dozens of pages, without substantiation.



No, your critics are not invariably ill-informed arch-conservatives. If you claim nobody bothers to read the information, that pretty much confirms my evaluation of your poll results. You can't argue that Americans are poorly informed about the Kennedy assassination, and simultaneously that they all believe the right thing about it.



Irrelevant Tangent #74.

 

[Foolmewunz]

And a far few non Americans are reasonably well informed about it too and not known for taking Fox news seriosuly

Could you reword that accentuating the positive instead of the negatives. It's actually hard to figure out what you're saying. i.e. "far few" is a negative meaning "not many", "non-Americans" is pretty clear, "not known... etc.." is a negative and "seriously" connotes a negative.

I'm not being facetious. Just curious what you were trying to convey.



@Patchbunny.... Not a derail as far as I'm concerned. My thread entry was acutally an OP of a separate thread, and I was inquiring about the ballistics "expertise" of Donahue and of JFK: The Smoking Gun which has this back in the gun-sights (if you'll pardon the pun) of a few Conspiracist sites, as is sort of evidenced in this thread.

 

[Dcdrac]

It means this keyboard needs replacing sooner rather than later meant to say a fair few non Americans have followed the case too and are very familiar with it too.

 

[Garrison]

I

No, your critics are not invariably ill-informed arch-conservatives. If you claim nobody bothers to read the information, that pretty much confirms my evaluation of your poll results. You can't argue that Americans are poorly informed about the Kennedy assassination, and simultaneously that they all believe the right thing about it.

British Labour supporter myself who is well aware that the CIA has a less than glorious history. The thing is we know about about past dirty deeds precisely because it is impossible to keep such things secret; the notion that after 50 years the CIA, or anyone else for that matter, could keep the details of a conspiracy to kill Kennedy secret is ludicrous to say the least.

 

[Dcdrac]

British Labour supporter myself who is well aware that the CIA has a less than glorious history. The thing is we know about about past dirty deeds precisely because it is impossible to keep such things secret; the notion that after 50 years the CIA, or anyone else for that matter, could keep the details of a conspiracy to kill Kennedy secret is ludicrous to say the least.

There is no way the CIA could keep something at this level of magnitude a secret for so long.

 

[BStrong]

Actually, both the older M195 and the current M855 will fragment into multiple pieces, decreasing in number until you get around 2400 fps. Below that and it tends to remain intact. I refer you to the section titled "Wounding Effects of the U.S. Military M193 (M16A1) and M855 (M16A2) Bullet Cartridges" of this page for more of a write-up.

I also direct interested parties to the image below. It's reproduced from Fackler, Martin L.: "Wounding Patterns of Military Rifle Bullets." International Defense Review 1/1989, 59-64.

[qimg]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v728/patchbunny/LJ%20Posting/m193fragchart_zpse0b12fb0.jpg[/qimg]

Sidetrack over. Back to the stupidity of Oliver Stone!

Thanks!

 

[patchbunny]

@Patchbunny.... Not a derail as far as I'm concerned. My thread entry was acutally an OP of a separate thread, and I was inquiring about the ballistics "expertise" of Donahue and of JFK: The Smoking Gun which has this back in the gun-sights (if you'll pardon the pun) of a few Conspiracist sites, as is sort of evidenced in this thread.

Oh, I didn't mean you. I meant my foray into the world of the 5.56NATO bullet's wounding characteristics.